Forged wedges

[CSmithAMG]

So I’ve been gaming Callaway MD forged wedges for years.  I decided to experiment with a different loft combo, and I ordered the new Vokey SM8.  I’m really not happy with the feel of them.   The Callaway are just so much softer feeling.   I understand that the Vokeys are cast and not forged.  Are the new JAWS Callaway wedges forged?  The only new wedges I can find that are advertised as forged are Ping.  Is that true?  What are my options to find that forged soft feel other than a boutique shop?  

[Kyle M]

Mizuno wedges are forged. 

[cgasucks]

Hogan wedges are forged too.

[Munich77]

Sub70:has some forged wedges too.  I love my Hogan wedges.  

[CSmithAMG]

So I guess what I’m hearing is that none of the major OEMs (with apologies to Mizuno and Hogan) make forged wedges anymore?  Why?  Are the vokeys particularly “clicky” compared to other wedges?   The mizunos are too chunky looking to me.  

[Diamana_Stinger]

Titleist Japan has Vokey Forged Wedges....

[CSmithAMG]

I really have a hard time understanding how TM, Callaway, Vokey, etc can get away with not offering a forged option.  Aren’t the wedges where you really want the most feel?  I can’t imagine tour guys being happy with harsh feeling wedges.  

[Noodler]

You've been brainwashed into believing that the way the club is made is what primarily determines the feel.  Whether the club is forged or cast has little to do with the final feel.  The feel comes from the design.  Put more "meat" behind the ball and the hit is going to feel solid.  The "softness" depends more on the ball you play than the club you hit.

 

I know, it's all just heresy and sacrilege...  ?

[ChitownM2]

 

10 minutes ago, CSmithAMG said:

I really have a hard time understanding how TM, Callaway, Vokey, etc can get away with not offering a forged option.  Aren’t the wedges where you really want the most feel?  I can’t imagine tour guys being happy with harsh feeling wedges.  

 

I think a big part of the reason they are making cast clubs is that a good portion of what people describe as "feel" comes more from the geometry of the clubhead and not necessarily from how the metal is formed. Casting allows for greater flexibility in what you can do with the clubhead compared to the limitations of making a forged club and so they can do things with the wedge that might not be possible with forged construction. 

 

hell, half the clubs out there that have forged in the name aren't really even "forged" if you are going by the traditional meaning of the word. 

[ChitownM2]

And if you go looking, only the Mizuno T20 wedges are forged, the new ES21 model has to be cast since I saw in the promo video that it has a partially hollow body.

 

The other reason is also price. Forging is a more expensive process and Vokeys already cost $160. I believe the Ping forged wedge is $200.  Seeing as the Glide 2.0/3.0 seem to be way more popular than the forged model, my guess is consumers either don't want to spend that much on each wedge or the difference in feel isn't substantial enough to warrant the 25% price premium 

[CSmithAMG]

11 minutes ago, Noodler said:

You've been brainwashed into believing that the way the club is made is what primarily determines the feel.  Whether the club is forged or cast has little to do with the final feel.  The feel comes from the design.  Put more "meat" behind the ball and the hit is going to feel solid.  The "softness" depends more on the ball you play than the club you hit.

 

I know, it's all just heresy and sacrilege...  ?

First, I’m not even saying that my issue with the vokeys is bc of the way it’s made.  What I do know is the MD forged feel much softer than the SM8.  The reason is only relevant to the extant that it helps me find something that feels better.  That’s why I asked if anyone else found the SM8 to be especially “clicky”.  Also, I play the same ball (TP5) every time.  

Edited August 19, 2020 by CSmithAMG

[Noodler]

6 minutes ago, CSmithAMG said:

First, I’m not even saying that my issue with the vokeys is bc of the way it’s made.  What I do know is the MD forged feel much softer than the SM8.  The reason is only relevant to the extant that it helps me find something that feels better.  That’s why I asked if anyone else found the SM8 to be especially “clicky”.  Also, I play the same ball (TP5) every time.  

 

OK - no problem.  But...  you did go on inquiring about forged this and forged that.  Just wanted to be sure you understood that it's the design and not the manufacturing process that matters.

[wam78]

The Mizuno wedges are forged, but I don't find them to feel overly soft.  I played j15 wedges and they were incredibly soft, but the sole grinds did not really work for me.  I also played Scratch wedges and they felt really solid, also forged.  Currently playing raw sm8.  It's the first time I play Vokey's since sm4 and I think they feel fantastic.  With wedges, for me its first and foremost sole design closely followed by looks at address.  The Vokey's transition really well from my irons and look great at address.  There is also a reason why quite a bit of non-contracted players turn to Vokey.  And yeah, my j15 were softer than my current Vokey's, but the current state of my short game is the best it's ever been.  Just have to find what suits your game from all aspects. 

[Nessism]

41 minutes ago, Noodler said:

 

OK - no problem.  But...  you did go on inquiring about forged this and forged that.  Just wanted to be sure you understood that it's the design and not the manufacturing process that matters.

Interesting point of view from someone with a Mizuno logo for an avatar.  I've venture to guess if Mizuno irons were cast instead of forged there would be very few people playing them.

 

Simple fact is that many people laud forged irons and that's fine.  I'm not a forged homer by any means but I do have a set of Miura's and when you catch the sweet spot they feel orgasmic, with a unique feel.  No cast iron will ever feel like them.

[Noodler]

2 minutes ago, Nessism said:

Interesting point of view from someone with a Mizuno logo for an avatar.  I've venture to guess if Mizuno irons were cast instead of forged there would be very few people playing them.

 

Simple fact is that many people laud forged irons and that's fine.  I'm not a forged homer by any means but I do have a set of Miura's and when you catch the sweet spot they feel orgasmic, with a unique feel.  No cast iron will ever feel like them.

 

I prefer forged irons for one simple reason; the ability to easily adjust the loft and lie to my needs.  Cast clubs really shouldn't be bent IMHO.  Sure, they can be to a certain extent, but you're definitely "breaking" the head (ever so slightly) to do so.  Bending cast clubs weakens the hosel, so I prefer using forged clubs for their customization ability.

[Noodler]

BTW - I have a few sets of cast Mizuno irons and the short irons (that have no significant undercut cavity) feel just about as solid and beautiful as many of their forged brethren.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Noodler

[soufrog]

Forged or non forged doesn't matter to me. It's about performance and what fits. Majority of people if u gave them two wedges one forged and one not and didn't tell them, they wouldn't know which is which   most the time it's the metal and geometry of the club that provides the feel. If you have to have forged there isn't a lot of options. I have played the Mizuno t20 and didn't think they felt overly soft for a forged club. You may wanna give honma tw-4 wedges a look. Real soft feel but not a lot of grind options 

[Nessism]

10 hours ago, Noodler said:

 

I prefer forged irons for one simple reason; the ability to easily adjust the loft and lie to my needs.  Cast clubs really shouldn't be bent IMHO.  Sure, they can be to a certain extent, but you're definitely "breaking" the head (ever so slightly) to do so.  Bending cast clubs weakens the hosel, so I prefer using forged clubs for their customization ability.

Cast clubs can be bent, and no, you are not "breaking the head" when doing so. 

 

Cast clubs made out of a soft and ductile material like 8620 carbon steel or 304 stainless can be bent the farthest without risk of breaking.  Tom Wishon's rates bending 8620 clubs as +/- 3 degrees, and 304 is +/- 4 degrees.  Ping casts all iron heads (431 and 17-4 stainless) at one lie angle and then they bend them to all the various color codes which amounts to something like +/- 4 degrees. 

 

If someone likes forged wedges and they put a smile on the players face then I say get some.  There is a difference in feel between different materials and the way heads are made, although those differences are quite small sometimes.  And since wedges by definition have a very laid back loft angle all strikes with them are made with a glancing blow.  You won't have quite as much impact sensation as with a less lofted club.  That may be one of the reasons big wedge makers like Vokey and Cleveland cast so many of their wedges.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Nessism

[bvanlieu]

I have replaced my MD4 and set gap (forged CB) with Miura's. I would also look at Wilson wedges if I wanted to try new forged with good price points. Older MD's are available forged but didn't sell nearly as much as the cast line. 

 

Nothing wrong with the MD4, when struck well it felt good however off center hits bit were a bit clicky. The Miuras feel quite solid even a bit off center and perform great. I am comparing all wedges using my same premium ball. 

 

The exception is my PM grind 60 which I beat the snot out of, don't care if its cast its a tool with a purpose and most shots I hit with it are not close to center ?

 

 

[Nixhex524]

Maybe I am brainwashed, but to me there is no comparison when it comes to forged and cast.  Forged feels much better, it is noticeable.  I have never played a forged wedge, until about a month ago when I grabbed some Mizuno T20 wedges with some store credit.  It was immediately noticeable for me that there was a different feel and I have never been impressed by Mizunos feel, good but not superior.   If you haven't tried the T20s yet, you definitely should if you are looking for a forged wedge.  I may never touch a Vokey again.

[dwboston]

Miura wedges are forged and feel fantastic.  I played Vokeys for years and there's no comparison - the Miuras feel and perform better. 

[Howard_Jones]

11 hours ago, Noodler said:

You've been brainwashed into believing that the way the club is made is what primarily determines the feel.  Whether the club is forged or cast has little to do with the final feel.  The feel comes from the design.  Put more "meat" behind the ball and the hit is going to feel solid.  The "softness" depends more on the ball you play than the club you hit.

 

I know, it's all just heresy and sacrilege...  ?

i disagree...not much but still....yes the ball we play is softer than the head, it always will be, but the steel mixture does make a difference here, and im not going to tell you about "grain flow"...but steel structure matters for what kind of vibrations thats transferred to our hands.  Yes some "meat" directly behind the ball is important and thats why old fashion cavity bacs dont feel as good on pured shots as a blade does, but most wedges is blade designs, but still dont feel the same...8620, 1018, 1025, 1030, the amount of carbon, and forged vs cast does make a difference here. ive been playing 1020 and 1018 forged, and can never adapt to the feel of Vokeys who is 8620, so the amount of carbon is actually the same as im used to, only production method is different. I was a Scratch dealer and offered 2 options, cast 8620 or forged 1018, guess who had the best feel?...and i guess you want argue with me about what shafts ive chosen, and yes, there is dowels in them too, so feel is a very a important aspect of the short game, and if it aint forged 1018 or 1020, it want find its way to my bag, i dont even bother to try it....done that and know for sure how it should feel to please me.

The reason for why Vokey is cast is design and random errors on forged heads. When using investment casting, its possible to control each parameter better. A forged head need some grinding after forging, and during that grinding we will see "tolerances" from the grinder, so 2 forged heads is never 100% similar. The next time you are in a Golf shop, just pick up 2 forged wedges who should be the same and study the sole...its not 100% equal, cant be, since its been by a grinder by hand. Titleist say they want their wedges to be closer to the "original" made by Bob Vokey, so thats why their wedges is cast instead of forged, but if you look into their storage of "originals", you will notice that their tour staff players is playing forged wedges with a personal grind. it was up in this forum some years ago with photos of the shelves with copies of heads grinded for each tour players, and non of them came from the cast production line, so what they are selling is not the same product their tour staff is playing.

 

[AUTIGER07]

I have the T20's in raw and they feel great. My old Nike forged felt a smidge better but in today's major OEM offerings I felt the T20 and the Cobra MIM had the best feel.

[ChitownM2]

53 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

i disagree...not much but still....yes the ball we play is softer than the head, it always will be, but the steel mixture does make a difference here, and im not going to tell you about "grain flow"...but steel structure matters for what kind of vibrations thats transferred to our hands.  Yes some "meat" directly behind the ball is important and thats why old fashion cavity bacs dont feel as good on pured shots as a blade does, but most wedges is blade designs, but still dont feel the same...8620, 1018, 1025, 1030, the amount of carbon, and forged vs cast does make a difference here. ive been playing 1020 and 1018 forged, and can never adapt to the feel of Vokeys who is 8620, so the amount of carbon is actually the same as im used to, only production method is different. I was a Scratch dealer and offered 2 options, cast 8620 or forged 1018, guess who had the best feel?...and i guess you want argue with me about what shafts ive chosen, and yes, there is dowels in them too, so feel is a very a important aspect of the short game, and if it aint forged 1018 or 1020, it want find its way to my bag, i dont even bother to try it....done that and know for sure how it should feel to please me.

The reason for why Vokey is cast is design and random errors on forged heads. When using investment casting, its possible to control each parameter better. A forged head need some grinding after forging, and during that grinding we will see "tolerances" from the grinder, so 2 forged heads is never 100% similar. The next time you are in a Golf shop, just pick up 2 forged wedges who should be the same and study the sole...its not 100% equal, cant be, since its been by a grinder by hand. Titleist say they want their wedges to be closer to the "original" made by Bob Vokey, so thats why their wedges is cast instead of forged, but if you look into their storage of "originals", you will notice that their tour staff players is playing forged wedges with a personal grind. it was up in this forum some years ago with photos of the shelves with copies of heads grinded for each tour players, and non of them came from the cast production line, so what they are selling is not the same product their tour staff is playing.

 

 

Are you saying that Vokey went to the expense of buying forging presses and that they invest in multiple molds for loft every time they release a new wedge series and don't sell any of these products to the public? It seems unlikely to me that they would go to that ridiculous expense and effort just to produce a few hundred wedges to give away to tour players for free. 

[Howard_Jones]

48 minutes ago, ChitownM2 said:

 

Are you saying that Vokey went to the expense of buying forging presses and that they invest in multiple molds for loft every time they release a new wedge series and don't sell any of these products to the public? It seems unlikely to me that they would go to that ridiculous expense and effort just to produce a few hundred wedges to give away to tour players for free. 

Ok, you dont know this industry, so let me tell you how it works.
We have something we call "open source forgings", you can buy them yourself, like the ones you find at Tour Spec Golf.
This heads is "blanks", so they have about 35 grams over weight that has to be removed by grinding.
Thats the type of heads their tour players gets, grinded to each players personal preferences from a blank, its not a "forged production head"....

Here is the product im talking about, its got nothing to do with Titleist at all....logos is added later 
https://www.tourspecgolf.com/kyoei-forged-raw-blank-wedges-3pcs.html

i had the same option to my Customers, hand grinded wedges from Blanks if they wanted something out of the ordinary and if i could not modify a Scratch head to the specs they wanted. It was called "Tour Custom", and part of the Scratch line up. If you made a order for one of them to Scratch, you would find either Don White or Jeff Mccoys initials on the sole. (DW or JM). Same thing, heads grinded from open source blanks, no brand name, they are added as part of the finish.

The same has been done with irons to Tiger and many others...grinded from a open source blank, and logos added when done. 

I notice now that THIS tread is not in the tech forum where i belong, but here is one of the latest treads about grinding club heads from blanks, and its a player who is grinding his own set of left hand irons from a open source blank where he has full control of the design, COG and everything. Thats whats the basis for clubs, both irons and wedges to the best players out there, they are hand grinded from blanks, FORGED blanks.

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Howard_Jones

[Tampajoe3]

Cast wedges are better for grinding the sole on a club.  The prevailing thought is if a wedge is forged and the other is cast with the same metal, and same head design, one can't tell the difference. 

[RedWings1]

My Honma Tw-W4 wedges are forged, feel awesome just like all the Mizuno T series wedges I've gamed.

[driveandputtmachine]

Feel is determined by the material and design of the head, the shaft, grip and ball you are playing.  You can cast and forge 8620 without the horrible issue of shrinkage seen in casting the 10 grade steels. That being said, whether one is forged or cast and they have the same shape, weight, shaft and grip and hit the same ball you will NOT tell a difference.  

 

I had to do a ton of work in metal research with some engineering projects in a former life, so I am going by memory and don't kill me if I am off on something. 

 

Now, 1018, 1020 and others are much more difficult to cast due to the shrinkage that occurs when cooling and how much hotter it needs to be to flow into all of the nooks and crannies in a form.  1018 and 1020 are absolutely softer metals than 8620 - this is not debatable, it is a scientific fact.   So in a way you are looking for forged wedges because they are made out of 1018 or 1020 which is softer than and stainless or 8620, not because they are forged.

 

In pure principle the metal determines the ease of bending, because of the chemical make-up 10 series metals will bend a lot more before they break than 8620 and stainless.  Design can have influence on this, but it is a scientific fact based on they way the atoms are aligned in the material.   I will say I know nothing about the MiM that Cobra is using for wedges and is starting to use for some irons.  I will say those MiM wedges bend far easier than almost any 1018 or 1020 wedge I have ever had in my Mitchell machine and they are stainless, so I have no idea why or how this happens.  It seemed the J36 and J40 from Bridgestone were about the same and the MiM, as were a couple of sets of Mizuno's I bent for a friend.

[Howard_Jones]

10 minutes ago, Tampajoe3 said:

Cast wedges are better for grinding the sole on a club.  The prevailing thought is if a wedge is forged and the other is cast with the same metal, and same head design, one can't tell the difference. 

Who told you that fairytale?, thats what it is, i cant think of any reasons for why grinding should be "better" on cast steel,  can you explain that? PS! im a former Gun smith and have been working with metal my whole life, and grinding of wedges....thats what im doing on my profile photo as a Authorized Scratch grinder and dealer

[RogerinNewZealand]

Howard,thanks for your insight.I love forged but are happy with sm5/6/7 i have bought,this week i dont own a forged wedge,my mp100
Mizuno are the softest set of Mizzys by far.My set of mp63 are great but not as soft.Maxfli were famously soft and Cast! 8620 can be just fine if its a Vokey,we each hear/feel different things at Impact,thats what WRX has taught me.
best regards,Roger