Monte's new No Turn - Cast

[flipmode]

41 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

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Thanks Monte...SUPER FAST customer service...they already took care of me!

[eastriver]

It looks like I might be another success story for the NTC method.   It's still very much a work-in-progress, but after 2 weeks of working on this I quite suddenly gained a club length on my irons.  It's actually pretty crazy.  Unfortunately, that means I don't know how far anything is going to go, so I've been clubbing down 1-2 clubs to be safe and usually still make it to the green if I don't run off the back.

 

for example: I started out the year hitting a 7i from 150 and today a 9i got me onto the front the green.  It's pretty nuts.

 

My consistency is, predictably, not very high, but the good strikes are incredibly satisfying in that 'I ******* love this game' way.

 

Over the winter and spring I spent some time with the Plane-Mate in the basement, and I found that the two learning systems dove-tail nicely.

 

The fairway woods and driver are coming along more slowly.  After reading a bit more of this thread today, I tried just using 'cast-cast' as a swing thought with the woods and got some decent results.  I've pretty much put the driver away for now, though, as my big miss is really (really) big.  

[MysteryV]

I'm curious what distance changes everyone is seeing with the NTC - particularly with the driver.  I have a PRGR monitor which provides consistent speed readings, and can't quite get my NTC swing speed to match my non-NTC swing speed.  NTC seems to be 4-8mph slower for (101 - 103 vs 107 - 110)

 

Has anyone else experienced this?  If so, were you able to identify a cause?  Things that pop to mind are that perhaps I'm throwing cast 1 too early (though that flies in the face of the instruction). 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, MysteryV said:

I'm curious what distance changes everyone is seeing with the NTC - particularly with the driver.  I have a PRGR monitor which provides consistent speed readings, and can't quite get my NTC swing speed to match my non-NTC swing speed.  NTC seems to be 4-8mph slower for (101 - 103 vs 107 - 110)

 

Has anyone else experienced this?  If so, were you able to identify a cause?  Things that pop to mind are that perhaps I'm throwing cast 1 too early (though that flies in the face of the instruction). 

 

When people slow down, it’s almost always dropping the rear shoulder to get the club to 8.    Also part of this is no pressure shift.  

[MysteryV]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

When people slow down, it’s almost always dropping the rear shoulder to get the club to 8.    Also part of this is no pressure shift.  

 

Just one of the 93,005,000 reasons you're the best!  Thanks for the reply!

[Carlito]

I plan to work on NTC during the next months (maybe years).

I also plan to get 5 online lessons from Rebellion Golf.

What do you suggest?

Start immediately with my actual swing or work some weeks on NTC before starting the lessons?

 

Thanks and nice greetings from Austria and Monte for President...

Edited September 30, 2020 by Carlito

[DaveLeeNC]

If one is taking NTC on in a serious manner (and is a golfer whose current swing is pretty different from that), what do folks early on do on the course? 'Stop playing on the course for a while', is a reasonable response. But for those who did not choose that, how did you swing early in the NTC learning process? 

 

Thanks. 

 

dave

[CasualLie]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

If one is taking NTC on in a serious manner (and is a golfer whose current swing is pretty different from that), what do folks early on do on the course? 'Stop playing on the course for a while', is a reasonable response. But for those who did not choose that, how did you swing early in the NTC learning process? 

 

Thanks. 

 

dave

Stop playing for awhile as in 2 years???  Of course that's not reasonable.  It's still very very early in NTC process for all.

 

I think it was Bob Grissett (apologies if it wasn't) who recently posted on IG you should have minimum 2-3 rehearsals between each ball hit at the range and 1 rehearsal before each shot at the course.

 

I recommended you bring NTC to the course now and regularly and use that 1 rehearsal to do the NTC in a way that locks in a feel you want to focus on that day.  But here is the key, when rehearsal is over then it's over, forget it, step up to the ball and hit, DO NOT try to think your way through NTC while hitting your shot.  Get aligned properly and at most just 1 small thought/bit from NTC but you really need to be more in observation mode rather than actively trying to control something impossible to control at full speed.

 

Trust that over time your practice and rehearsals will bleed into your swing on the course.

 

For me, since I have a tendency to not have enough arm raise, my on course rehearsal is mostly about getting the hand to 8 and the height I want and feeling where that is.  Then my actual shot is just observing did I get to that feel but I'm really just locked in on target.  

 

Also important is I get some feedback from how it felt and giving myself a mental yay or nay as to whether I felt what I wanted.  And I look at ball flight in relation to how impact felt just to make some observations, BUT no swing changes from shot to shot.  I just register the feedback but stick to the process.  Only after 6 holes minimum do I start to allow if maybe a pattern has shown itself and a small change of focus is ok.  I'm not changing the swing, the rehearsal is still NTC, but maybe after six holes or so ball flight is telling me to forget about getting to 8, but refocus on flexion, feel more of getting that hand to the back pocket...or maybe I need to focus on feeling that 2nd cast more.  Whatever it may be, it's just one refocus per round and maybe return to the 1st focus.  Point being, no over analyzing between shots/holes...stick to the plan and just go with the shot results.

 

Besides, most days it's all about the little shots around the green and putting...

[Puttersaurus Rex]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

If one is taking NTC on in a serious manner (and is a golfer whose current swing is pretty different from that), what do folks early on do on the course? 'Stop playing on the course for a while', is a reasonable response. But for those who did not choose that, how did you swing early in the NTC learning process? 

 

Thanks. 

 

dave

 

A suggestion is to have fun on the course, and treat them as practice rounds.  I worked on 80% swings, and trying to practice the swing thoughts/feels.  I have seen the most improvement on short game approach shots initially.  Driver is taking more time obviously, but I try and make the NTC with every iron or wedge shot.

[eric13]

I had no trouble purchasing and it was the best golf investment I ever made.  Instant solid contact and where did that draw come from?

[eric13]

5 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

If one is taking NTC on in a serious manner (and is a golfer whose current swing is pretty different from that), what do folks early on do on the course? 'Stop playing on the course for a while', is a reasonable response. But for those who did not choose that, how did you swing early in the NTC learning process? 

 

Thanks. 

 

dave

One range session and then to the course. 

[bortass]

6 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

If one is taking NTC on in a serious manner (and is a golfer whose current swing is pretty different from that), what do folks early on do on the course? 'Stop playing on the course for a while', is a reasonable response. But for those who did not choose that, how did you swing early in the NTC learning process? 

 

Thanks. 

 

dave

  I try to just swing but have run into the issue of what happens when I forget to do a cast. if I forget cast A, I send the ball left and if I forget B it goes right. For me, I just need to be cognizant of the fact that I'm making a change and my ball flight may vary based on what i actually do on any given swing.

[sprcoop]

9 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

If one is taking NTC on in a serious manner (and is a golfer whose current swing is pretty different from that), what do folks early on do on the course? 'Stop playing on the course for a while', is a reasonable response. But for those who did not choose that, how did you swing early in the NTC learning process? 

 

Thanks. 

 

dave

 

Hours of hitting wiffle balls in the living room from wicked slow to half speed with the Eric Cogorno "Best Drill I've Ever Seen" practice station setup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APsIJ4M2oSY

 

With slow motion confirmation video.

 

I smacked that rear alignment stick A LOT!  Not so much any more.

 

Three range sessions relearning at slow to full speed with same practice station and video.  After initial debacle went REALLY well.  Crisp contact and added 10MPH on driver CHS,  38 meters per second to 42 meters per second with same effort.

 

Playing Saturday and definitely 3 rehearsals for every shot at range and there will be one rehearsal for every on course shot.

 

[wmblake2000]

18 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

If one is taking NTC on in a serious manner (and is a golfer whose current swing is pretty different from that), what do folks early on do on the course? 'Stop playing on the course for a while', is a reasonable response. But for those who did not choose that, how did you swing early in the NTC learning process? 

 

Thanks. 

 

dave

That's a question I have spent a lot of time trying to answer for myself...not just for NTC but overall swing changes.  The best I have found is, more or less, forget 98% of what I focus on in practice. Whatever swing I really have is the one I'm going to play with.  One key new feel, maybe two, but often just one and that may move around as the round progresses. But if I want to try to shoot a score, I can't try to do too much that's new.  If I am just trying to feel the new swing on the course, then replicate the feels from practice.  

[Max21]

I think i was misinterpreting the turn to 8 o'clock quite a bit that was causing a lot of frustration. I was treating it as more of an upwards motion to 8 rather than a turn to 8 that wasn't really upwards. Hopefully this helps me get back on track

[seth514]

Would be interested in hearing additional input from anyone that has been implementing this successfully with driver yet. 
 

It’s starting to click with shorter irons, and one day I was getting decent driver results. But that went away the next range session. Back to immediate 100 yard duck hooks, and the club is now in a unplayable state.
 

Obviously immediate results aren’t expected with this or any other swing change, as Monte has stated numerous times in this thread. Just curious to hear of others struggling, so I feel better lol. 

[DaveLeeNC]

Re: Driver Results

 

I have had 3 shortish practice sessions in the back yard (whiffles and or chips with real balls) plus one practice session on the range. I did not find driver any harder (or easier) than the other clubs. 

 

Over-all, my results (so far) are encouraging. Been around this game too long to make a 'real judgment' based on this limited data. I will say that this swing is more draw oriented than what I was doing previously. But not more 'draw oriented' than when I was playing/practicing almost daily. I would not call it 'duck hookey'. 

 

dave

[mick202020]

What are peoples experience with the first part of the no turn cast transition ie the adding more knee flex to the left knee? This seems to be a PRECURSOR to the cast that Monte emphasises but I don't see much discussion of it in this thread.

 

I personally am prone to the hip spin out, where my right hip moves towards the ball and target way too early, and I get stuck and my arms lag behind.  I realise the crucial part of this is my hip motion - how has everyone gone about adding more left knee flex to their transition? I find this incredibly hard to ingrain

[Weetbix]

Did some experimenting in the backyard net with cast A on shorter swings today and was surprised to find it working well on swings as short as club first parallel. I'd been working on shorter shots with an assumption of it bring cast B but contact and tempo seemed much better focussing on A.

 

I've done very little cast B work as I've needed to work on my takeaway and cast A. But I seem to have no trouble with cast B happening naturally - so my old swing must have had plenty of it already. 

 

Gunna mess around with chips now and see if even they can benefit from a little cast A feel. 

 

Edit:  looking at some video the reason I'm not needing to cast B may be more to do with a lack of flattening in cast A - so much more work to do

 

Chipping though went well but again without the proper wrist action in transition I'm not really testing the cast to 8 very well yet

Edited October 2, 2020 by Weetbix

[aswile]

7 hours ago, mick202020 said:

What are peoples experience with the first part of the no turn cast transition ie the adding more knee flex to the left knee? This seems to be a PRECURSOR to the cast that Monte emphasises but I don't see much discussion of it in this thread.

 

I personally am prone to the hip spin out, where my right hip moves towards the ball and target way too early, and I get stuck and my arms lag behind.  I realise the crucial part of this is my hip motion - how has everyone gone about adding more left knee flex to their transition? I find this incredibly hard to ingrain

Ugh...I can add flex no problem, but I can't integrate that move into an actual swing. Of course, I only went to the range once after the NJ Clinic so I might be expecting too much, too soon 🙂  A few hundred balls a week for the next six months of cold weather and maybe I will start to make the right moves...small investment in time to develop a sound swing moving forward.

 

[glk]

3 minutes ago, aswile said:

Ugh...I can add flex no problem, but I can't integrate that move into an actual swing. Of course, I only went to the range once after the NJ Clinic so I might be expecting too much, too soon 🙂  A few hundred balls a week for the next six months of cold weather and maybe I will start to make the right moves...small investment in time to develop a sound swing moving forward.

 

I think of twisting the club versus focusing on lead wrist flexing - folks needs to find what helps them - some do flex, other feel trail wrist extension, and me I like twist.   Both wrists are involved in this part of the cast is my point.   
 

maybe this will help visualize the move.    

 

[aswile]

Thanks, that may be a good feel for me to get rid of the flip/dump move!

[coops]

12 hours ago, seth514 said:

Would be interested in hearing additional input from anyone that has been implementing this successfully with driver yet. 
 

It’s starting to click with shorter irons, and one day I was getting decent driver results. But that went away the next range session. Back to immediate 100 yard duck hooks, and the club is now in a unplayable state.
 

Obviously immediate results aren’t expected with this or any other swing change, as Monte has stated numerous times in this thread. Just curious to hear of others struggling, so I feel better lol. 

I’ve been working on the Cast A, and mostly with mid and short iron at the range.

My driving has been noteably much improved also. Straighter (less hook) and better ball flight, way more conssistent and the bad ones are much less bad than before i started NTC stuff...

 

And, yes, my bad ones are also pull-hooky - and a poor iron also tends to be a bit pulled with some draw... which is a huge improvement over mahoosive pull hooks 😉

 

The big issue for me is when I don’t get onto my left side in transition... or i’m still getting there when I unwind and lash at the ball. That’s what causes my pull hooks ( and duck hooks when i did those more frequently)...

 

When practicing the Cast A, make sure to be shifting to your left side while feeling you keep your back to the target... Monte mentions this in the vidoe, but it’s easy to gloss over that and concentrate only on the wrist/arm movement...

I like to feel my Cast A happens or intends to start happening as I shift/bump to my left side - so the hips and pressure are bumping left while the right and left hand are Casting A the other way, away from the target and a bit behind me...

[DaveLeeNC]

For me the left knee flex issue is related to old habits and the fact that I have hit with EE for so long that this is the impact position that my body is looking for regardless of whether or not previous swing dynamics require that position. My first (natural) move in the transition is to flex that knee while moving both that knee and my hips roughly toward 2:00. The 'proper move' (I think) is that the knee flexes and the hips go down - and that is going to take some time as that knee flex REALLY triggers old habits. 

 

dave

[glk]

Folks should consider an online/ live lesson with monte on this movement.   
would insure you are starting at correct point, ie your backswing And pressure shift are good, and that you are doing the drills correctly.    
 

and be patient.   If a person is coming from a stall/ flip pattern this movement is not just about closing the face earlier and shallowing - it about an entire new swing pattern - and release is a big part - from stall / flip to using more body rotation and unhinge/ supination.     From experience one can shallow and close the face but the brain still wants to release in the old pattern - particularly using Internal rotation of the trail shoulder to roll the shaft Versus keeping it in external rotation and using more lead forearm supination.  For me, lots of slow single arm 9-3 to focus on educating arms on new release pattern to go with the transition, etc. 
 

coming from an upper body dominate pattern with a stall/ flip myself, I used to feel speed thru my arms - as my pattern changed my arms felt slower but I picked up 30yards of the tee.   Go figure.    And took a bit over two years with lessons from both monte and iteach - included setup, backswing, transition, and release -  and i still have done small refinements - backsliding is real too.

1% better everyday day. 

 

good luck all.

[TT2017]

A few years back I was fortunate enough to have a couple of lessons with Monte one on one. I actually went to see him specifically about short game and his chipping method. I now feel that I'm a scratch golfer from a chipping perspective, compared to my 6 index in the rest of my game, and its all to do with my ability to get up and down from anywhere, which is a mindset that I didn't have before, and that confidence comes from a technique that I OWN. No longer do I hit and hope on chips and close pitches. The reason I make this statement is that in the course of learning Monte's method, which took a long time before I owned it, I had to come to terms with what is referred to as 'cast B'. Part of my learning this concept/feel was my own trial and error, I knew what Monte taught and what the goal was, but I couldn't make that knowledge translate into action, but I eventually found it by hitting right arm only chips. Almost as if by magic I had the feel to go with the knowledge.

In my long game I'm definitely guilty of being too lower body 'keen' and thus I'm now going to take the cast B and apply it with the NT concept and try to fully implement the whole NTC.

This is a long winded way of saying that cast B is essentially the same as Monte's chipping technique and one arm chipping really assists the 'ah ha' moment of cast B.

Cheers Monte.

[glk]

Committing to single arm swings has to be one of the best ways to educate the shoulders/arms/hands in the release.  

 

 

[acekun]

15 hours ago, seth514 said:

Would be interested in hearing additional input from anyone that has been implementing this successfully with driver yet. 
 

It’s starting to click with shorter irons, and one day I was getting decent driver results. But that went away the next range session. Back to immediate 100 yard duck hooks, and the club is now in a unplayable state.
 

Obviously immediate results aren’t expected with this or any other swing change, as Monte has stated numerous times in this thread. Just curious to hear of others struggling, so I feel better lol. 

I've been doing it with driver and it's been pretty good. I've also worked on my angle of attack and replaced a 15-year old driver in last few weeks so there's multiple variables, but my carry is up ~20-30 yards on my Mevo (honestly think most attributable to going from negative AoA to positive). But accuracy is just as good.

 

WIth driver, I cast to 7 -- I was hitting hooks casting to 8. To me, feel is relative -- maybe my 7 feel is most people's 8. I don't worry about that -- ball flight is the best indicator of what I'm actually doing. With irons, I cast to 8. My driver stance is a bit closed so maybe that's the difference.

 

I also started speed training last week. I've learned that the harder I throw the cast, the faster my speed. My buddy who is scratch and can get to 115 mph (he doesn't follow Monte) -- with driver he says he throws his hands as hard as he can from the top. With irons, he throws his hands later. Testing it on the course tomorrow -- I'm going throw it as hard as I can and see what happens. 

 

I also don't wait until I groove a feel in practice before taking it to the course anymore. I just play with it even if I hit some bad shots. I don't care.  Hit a bad shot? Eh, whatever, I'm making a swing change. It makes me fully commit to the change and I learn things that I don't in practice. For me, it speeds up the process.

[TourSpoon]

So the last 2 rounds I have been able to apply this to the driver on the course with some success and have the following observations. When I am a little more patient, the flight is spot on, but when I try to hard I get that hook. I also found that I need to project my hands more down the line (feels like 1:00) because I can get a little pully cutting off the swing. Yesterday I hit some really great drives just feeling the cast with what I would say is an 80% cast effort versus a 100% cast effort and it took that hooky edge off. Only the true disciples will know what the heck I just said, LOL. 

[Divot License]

My main cause for confusion with NTC videos is the difference in the set up videos to Monte's instruction in D4D.

 

In NTC Monte states the V between thumb and forefinger points between the chin and should with the right elbow being relaxed however in D4D he is fairly adamant that the V of the right hands points up the arm line (to the shoulder) and that the right elbow is in a much more under position at address, mimicking impact.