Monte's new No Turn - Cast

[Valtiel]

9 hours ago, hafnia said:

so.... just on this.

 

When Jack Niklaus said "he needs to feel like his arms beat his shirt buttons to the ball" and Tiger woods in his video with Butch talking about arms down and no turning the hips.   Am I right in saying that this is kind of the cast / hammer stake to the right of you etc?

 

 

 

Bear mind for them this is because their hips, ESPECIALLY Tiger's, were unbelievably fast. Fast enough to warrant having to consciously focus on keeping the arms from getting left behind. This is a problem that a vast majority of golfers will never have, so be careful in trying to apply any of this to your swing unless you know for a fact that your hips are also extremely quick. 

[hafnia]

11 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Bear mind for them this is because their hips, ESPECIALLY Tiger's, were unbelievably fast. Fast enough to warrant having to consciously focus on keeping the arms from getting left behind. This is a problem that a vast majority of golfers will never have, so be careful in trying to apply any of this to your swing unless you know for a fact that your hips are also extremely quick. 

 

If you keep the right elbow in front of the right hip and it doesnt go behind shirt seam would this negate the issue of the hips as the club stays in front?

[games]

15 hours ago, Valtiel said:

be careful in trying to apply any of this to your swing unless you know for a fact that your hips are also extremely quick

 

That's not true for this swing.  If anything, the hard cast with the arms helps us lesser players as it allows the club to pass before early extension can occur.  A swing with this characteristic would be the Larry Rinker "high-core" model for Wright Balance where the body stays still while the arms pass by the body.  I agree with Tiger's "Jedi mind trick" of having the arms beat the shirt buttons to the ball.

 

The one thing we lesser players need to keep in mind is to "make room" for the trail arm and elbow.  My trail elbow will sometimes crash into my ample stomach.  But, that's a problem anyone of my girth will have with ANY swing.  When the elbow stops early, the trail arm extends too soon and laughter and hilarity ensure, no matter what swing you use.

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, games said:

 

That's not true for this swing.  If anything, the hard cast with the arms helps us lesser players as it allows the club to pass before early extension can occur.  A swing with this characteristic would be the Larry Rinker "high-core" model for Wright Balance where the body stays still while the arms pass by the body. 

Would you happen to have any good video reference for this? I did some quick googling but didn't turn up much. I'd be really curious to see this kind of thing working/in action because I feel like the arms passing the body/body remaining still is something that seems to so often be considered a problem, myself included. Curious to see what this looks like if/when it works. 

[games]

3 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Would you happen to have any good video reference for this? I did some quick googling but didn't turn up much. I'd be really curious to see this kind of thing working/in action because I feel like the arms passing the body/body remaining still is something that seems to so often be considered a problem, myself included. Curious to see what this looks like if/when it works. 

 

Definitely check out Larry Rinker and "Upper Core Swing" on YouTube.  Rinker swears 80% of students he tests are high core players by the Wright Balance System, and he has a fairly defined swing model for this player.  It's very armsy, with little lower body action.  

 

[MK7Golf21]

6 hours ago, games said:

 

That's not true for this swing.  If anything, the hard cast with the arms helps us lesser players as it allows the club to pass before early extension can occur.  A swing with this characteristic would be the Larry Rinker "high-core" model for Wright Balance where the body stays still while the arms pass by the body.  I agree with Tiger's "Jedi mind trick" of having the arms beat the shirt buttons to the ball.

 

The one thing we lesser players need to keep in mind is to "make room" for the trail arm and elbow.  My trail elbow will sometimes crash into my ample stomach.  But, that's a problem anyone of my girth will have with ANY swing.  When the elbow stops early, the trail arm extends too soon and laughter and hilarity ensure, no matter what swing you use.

 

Here is what you have to understand about Tigers feel during that time period, he had super active hips on the downswing. When your body is moving that way for years even when adding the feel of the arms beating his hips down will result in the hips still firing very hard and being very open but it will just help sync better. I know because I can have super active hips and adding the arm feeling, my lower body still fires hard and opens but I'm able to get my arms down quick too.

 

If you are square to the ball at impact then that feeling will certainly not help get you into a pro looking open position at impact, it just won't. Now, you can swing that way and make ok contact but that is different. Most AM's don't have hips that move correctly, they either can't do it or the lower body is just lazy and hasn't been trained. 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Redjeep83

[MK7Golf21]

also btw- Tigers feel's now the hip initiating the downswing and clearing, I'm guessing because his bad back has slowed down his hips over the years.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Redjeep83

[Krt22]

51 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

 

Here is what you have to understand about Tigers feel during that time period, he had super active hips on the downswing. When your body is moving that way for years even when adding the feel of the arms beating his hips down will result in the hips still firing very hard and being very open but it will just help sync better. I know because I can have super active hips and adding the arm feeling, my lower body still fires hard and opens but I'm able to get my arms down quick too.

 

If you are square to the ball at impact then that feeling will certainly not help get you into a pro looking open position at impact, it just won't. Now, you can swing that way and make ok contact but that is different. Most AM's don't have hips that move correctly, they either can't do it or the lower body is just lazy and hasn't been trained. 

 

 

That is not true. Most ams who do not have a pro looking impact position is not because their hips are too slow, its because their arms trail behind in the swing. They are square at impact because the hips have to stall and wait for the arms to catch up. If you get the arms going early and connected, you will likely get more open at impact, not less.

[MK7Golf21]

27 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

That is not true. Most ams who do not have a pro looking impact position is not because their hips are too slow, its because their arms trail behind in the swing. They are square at impact because the hips have to stall and wait for the arms to catch up. If you get the arms going early and connected, you will likely get more open at impact, not less.

The hips aren’t moving appropriately in those cases and they have to stall. Properly clearly hips gives you more room to swing the arms freely without stalling 

[Krt22]

45 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

The hips aren’t moving appropriately in those cases and they have to stall. Properly clearly hips gives you more room to swing the arms freely without stalling 

And moving them harder/faster doesn't change that if your arms trail your body. For plenty of golfers, getting their arms working better in turn makes their hips move appropriately, which allows them to get more open at impact. It's golfer specific, so your blanket statement that focusing on the arms will result getting less open at impact just isn't true

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, games said:

 

Definitely check out Larry Rinker and "Upper Core Swing" on YouTube.  Rinker swears 80% of students he tests are high core players by the Wright Balance System, and he has a fairly defined swing model for this player.  It's very armsy, with little lower body action.  

 

I looked up the "four keys" for the upper core swing concept (all new to me to apologies if this has been covered ad nauseum already). Most of it makes sense to me, and it seems like (correct me if i'm wrong) a sort of teaching method that caters towards the player that maybe started later in life and/or isn't starting with a more "natural" approach to moving the lower body. What I mean by that is how kids tend to use their whole body when picking up any "throwing motion" related sports, which includes golf, whereas adults will tend to have a much more upper body-centric approach when picking up the game later. I wouldn't be surprised if that 80% number Rinker mentions correlates with that pretty closely. 

What confused me a bit though is the point he makes about the first "mistakes" he seems to be concerned with being hips that are too open leading to a takeaway that is too steep and outside with insufficient hip turn, then leading to a steep downswing. His sample size is no doubt larger than mine, but in all the swings i've downloaded and broken down in the Swing Video and Comments over the last year, the opposite is FAR more common. Swings that start out flat and inside coupled with over rotation of the hips and shoulders then leading to an over the top compensation. I'd be curious to see what his approach would be for dealing with someone like that. 
 

1 hour ago, Redjeep83 said:

also btw- Tigers feel's now the hip initiating the downswing and clearing, I'm guessing because his bad back has slowed down his hips over the years.

I'm pretty sure Tiger's feels are now more focused on the 15ft between the couch and the refrigerator. 😅

[MK7Golf21]

18 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

And moving them harder/faster doesn't change that if your arms trail your body. For plenty of golfers, getting their arms working better in turn makes their hips move appropriately, which allows them to get more open at impact. It's golfer specific, so your blanket statement that focusing on the arms will result getting less open at impact just isn't true

I didn’t say focusing on arm work will result in less open hips, you are misunderstanding. I’m big on working with arms, however, doing proper arm mechanics result in the lower body becoming more active without stall not less. I was specifically talking about the guy who is square at impact already using Tigers feel of all arms and lower body staying back. 

[Krt22]

12 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

I didn’t say focusing on arm work will result in less open hips, you are misunderstanding. I’m big on working with arms, however, doing proper arm mechanics result in the lower body becoming more active without stall not less. I was specifically talking about the guy who is square at impact already using Tigers feel of all arms and lower body staying back. 

That guy very well may get more open using all arms and trying to delay opening up. You can't really make that statement without first identifying how/why someone is square at impact, in many cases its because their lower body is over-active too early and their arms get disconnected. In order to get open at impact, the arms and body need to be linked, if that happens you can rotate as much as you want

[MK7Golf21]

15 hours ago, Krt22 said:

That guy very well may get more open using all arms and trying to delay opening up. You can't really make that statement without first identifying how/why someone is square at impact, in many cases its because their lower body is over-active too early and their arms get disconnected. In order to get open at impact, the arms and body need to be linked, if that happens you can rotate as much as you want

 

You kept referencing that I was saying the hips are too slow, I never said that. I said they don't work correctly. The guy square at impact with  fast hips and arms way behind and casty have other issues going on than just leaving the hips back and swinging the arms will fix. Generally arm structure not ideal, hips are sliding too much, not enough right hip depth and turn, right hip pops out, left hip doesn't clear. Those are all reasons causing the hips to get way ahead, stalling rotation, upper body falling back with arms behind and casting. So I stick to my statement that just doing Tigers drill for them is not ideal, fix those other issues and you can not have to worry about leaving the hips back. I don't like slowing down hips when it's a strength most don't have

Edited September 3, 2021 by Redjeep83

[games]

17 hours ago, Valtiel said:

What confused me a bit though is the point he makes about the first "mistakes" he seems to be concerned with being hips that are too open leading to a takeaway that is too steep and outside with insufficient hip turn, then leading to a steep downswing. His sample size is no doubt larger than mine, but in all the swings i've downloaded and broken down in the Swing Video and Comments over the last year, the opposite is FAR more common. Swings that start out flat and inside coupled with over rotation of the hips and shoulders then leading to an over the top compensation. I'd be curious to see what his approach would be for dealing with someone like that. 

 

I think you have a valid point.  Obviously, the key difference in the respective audiences is those who can afford to pay Rinker to look at their swing versus those who post here.  😀  I bet those who post here are probably younger and more athletic than those who see Rinker.

[hafnia]

 

This is another video from a great instructor.  At 4.26 he goes into a drill which very strongly resembles Monte's cast move.

 

It's reassuring to see this - definitely going to be my off season goal to get this release in my swing 

 

[liquorandpoker]

On 9/2/2021 at 1:38 PM, Redjeep83 said:

also btw- Tigers feel's now the hip initiating the downswing and clearing, I'm guessing because his bad back has slowed down his hips over the years.

Would love to see the reference on this.  Can you post the interview for all to read? 

[MK7Golf21]

6 hours ago, liquorandpoker said:

Would love to see the reference on this.  Can you post the interview for all to read? 

it’s a good article shortly after he won the masters. I came across it and thought it was great and surprised hadn’t seen it before 

“Once I’ve completed my backswing—which almost always stops short of parallel because I’m concerned with hitting the ball the right distance, not the farthest distance—my main thought is to push down into the ground and clear my hips. That’s one reason my latest knee scope was so important. Toward the end of the summer, pain in my left knee prevented me from pushing hard. I was sliding a bit, which made it nearly impossible to get the hip rotation I needed to hit my cut. My other thought is to not let my hands get stuck behind me, which leads to having to save the swing and manipulate the face with my hands—that’s no good. The best way to avoid getting stuck is to not let the lower body out-race the hands on the downswing. My thought is to have everything synced when I reach impact.”

 

So it’s like his main thought is pushing and hip clearing but also arms so they don’t get out of sync, kind of a balancing act. I do similar but this is Tigers feels. 
 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/tiger-woods-breaks-down-how-he-hits-his-irons/amp

[liquorandpoker]

24 minutes ago, Redjeep83 said:

it’s a good article shortly after he won the masters. I came across it and thought it was great and surprised hadn’t seen it before 

“Once I’ve completed my backswing—which almost always stops short of parallel because I’m concerned with hitting the ball the right distance, not the farthest distance—my main thought is to push down into the ground and clear my hips. That’s one reason my latest knee scope was so important. Toward the end of the summer, pain in my left knee prevented me from pushing hard. I was sliding a bit, which made it nearly impossible to get the hip rotation I needed to hit my cut. My other thought is to not let my hands get stuck behind me, which leads to having to save the swing and manipulate the face with my hands—that’s no good. The best way to avoid getting stuck is to not let the lower body out-race the hands on the downswing. My thought is to have everything synced when I reach impact.”

 

So it’s like his main thought is pushing and hip clearing but also arms so they don’t get out of sync, kind of a balancing act. I do similar but this is Tigers feels. 
 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/tiger-woods-breaks-down-how-he-hits-his-irons/amp

 

Thanks man!

 

I read this a bit differently - he doesn't really say he initiates the downswing with a clearing of the hips.  I read it to say that clearing his hips is a focus, but must be synced w arms.  He doesn't actually say what he feels initiates the downswing does he?

[MK7Golf21]

54 minutes ago, liquorandpoker said:

 

Thanks man!

 

I read this a bit differently - he doesn't really say he initiates the downswing with a clearing of the hips.  I read it to say that clearing his hips is a focus, but must be synced w arms.  He doesn't actually say what he feels initiates the downswing does he?

it’s never black and white. From the article though his main thought is clearing the hips which is different than 2000. Which is interesting to hear from him, years back I watched him practice on the range and you could definitely see him working on it. I’m recent years I’ve heard him talk about clearing the hip which throws the hands out in front on the downswing which he likes so it isn’t stuck 

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Redjeep83

[hafnia]

On 8/31/2021 at 1:46 PM, nitram said:

Watch this from Jake Hutt on your question.

 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CEun_tinxfx/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Just on this ..... Love Jake hutt and this video has me thinking.....

 

 

Do you do the feet pressure and then cast? 

[nitram]

I'd get the cast and the downswing down before I take on the ground forces. Small steps amigo...

[hafnia]

47 minutes ago, nitram said:

I'd get the cast and the downswing down before I take on the ground forces. Small steps amigo...

Fair point. I was hoping that they would somehow compliment eachother. 

[TheDeanAbides]

This thread appears to have gotten off track. There are a lot of posts about other instructors who teach wildly different swings. Hutt is a stack and tilt guy, ffs. 

 

All you need is the NTC. It's just overcomplicating what is an incredibly simple, effective and distilled full swing concept. 

 

If people keep bringing ideas in from other teachers you might as well carry on with the merry-go-round of "tried that - didn't work. Try this now" that stops people improving. 

 

This isn't my thread, so it's not my decision, but the last time I posted in here it was focused on the NTC and now it's obfuscated. 

[swisscheese]

I take the opportunity of this thread to post my very first post here. Avid reader but haven't had the bandwith to actively participate.

 

So, back to the topic... 12 balls, that's what I needed to totally change my golf swing thanks to NTC. Found this thread accidentally then read some pages and bought the video access on sunday morning, and by sunday afternoon my flippy release was gone...

 

I'm a 49 swiss golfer carrying a 5 HCP, so I think I have a decent swing yet struggling with the release. Oh, I could live with it (or without, as applicable) but what a satisfaction to finally understand you were trying to solve the problem with the wrong tool. Monte, cannot thank you enough for this. Among many benefits, the one that struck me is that I now don't need to hit 2 bucket of balls prior my round to "settle" my swing. I have now a clear rehearsal thought and drill which put my swing in place almost instantly, and yes, I tried it on the course today 🙂 So, not only the video has the best value for money possible but you (Monte) just saved me hundreds of $ in wasted bucket of balls :)

 

I read that someone wanted to know whether it would work for left handed playing righty and I'm there to testify. The cast B helped me to prevent my left hand to take over the release.

 

Didn't work too much on the no turn backswing since I have (I think I have) a decent backswing with a flat or slightly bowed left wrist. So the cast B was pretty natural for me once you do it properly at 8. Trajectory wise, I kept my draw and quite high ball flight. That being said, I tried the no turn as well and interestingly enough, I think I cup a bit more the left wrist and the result is a gentle fade. Well, should thank you for this as well Monte. So far, producing a fade was the byproduct of luck more than anything else. 🙂

 

Keep up the good work guys, golf is a fantastic sport

[nitram]

7 minutes ago, swisscheese said:

I take the opportunity of this thread to post my very first post here. Avid reader but haven't had the bandwith to actively participate.

 

So, back to the topic... 12 balls, that's what I needed to totally change my golf swing thanks to NTC. Found this thread accidentally then read some pages and bought the video access on sunday morning, and by sunday afternoon my flippy release was gone...

 

I'm a 49 swiss golfer carrying a 5 HCP, so I think I have a decent swing yet struggling with the release. Oh, I could live with it (or without, as applicable) but what a satisfaction to finally understand you were trying to solve the problem with the wrong tool. Monte, cannot thank you enough for this. Among many benefits, the one that struck me is that I now don't need to hit 2 bucket of balls prior my round to "settle" my swing. I have now a clear rehearsal thought and drill which put my swing in place almost instantly, and yes, I tried it on the course today 🙂 So, not only the video has the best value for money possible but you (Monte) just saved me hundreds of $ in wasted bucket of balls 🙂

 

I read that someone wanted to know whether it would work for left handed playing righty and I'm there to testify. The cast B helped me to prevent my left hand to take over the release.

 

Didn't work too much on the no turn backswing since I have (I think I have) a decent backswing with a flat or slightly bowed left wrist. So the cast B was pretty natural for me once you do it properly at 8. Trajectory wise, I kept my draw and quite high ball flight. That being said, I tried the no turn as well and interestingly enough, I think I cup a bit more the left wrist and the result is a gentle fade. Well, should thank you for this as well Monte. So far, producing a fade was the byproduct of luck more than anything else. 🙂

 

Keep up the good work guys, golf is a fantastic sport

Great first post and welcome to WRX!  🍻

[hafnia]

On 8/30/2020 at 4:41 AM, yycpaul said:

Where (in terms of vertical) are you guys throwing to for the throw to 8 o'clock? JakeHunt has a throw straight up ( https://www.instagram.com/tv/B_Vif0-FREP/?igshid=1nk8pg5y1fnxl ), or ar you throwing more straight back horizontally towards 8. (ie 9 o'clock from a face on view)

this thread is brilliant - I love the fact that this video gives an example of a feel to get the same result that people are searching for.   Apologies for taking it off topic slightly but ive got junk to gety rid of.

 

The frustration of golf is that I know there is a swing there for me which will see me shoot no more than 85 on a bad day and I break 80 on a solid day.  At the moment 80-85 is a really good day and 95+ is a bad day.  My annoyance is that i'm reasonably gifted athletically, was a very good thrower at school, can squat heavy, run fast and move fast so my swing speed is pretty good as im 45 and hit it long.  All very well but hitting it long towards trees and OB isnt good for the card.

 

My further frustration is that so many instructors teach golf in a way that creates more problems and junk in the already crowded brain.  This thread has given me the commonalities in the way to swing the club.

 

THE BEST GOLFERS CAST THE CLUB BEHIND THEM. - the NTC is the way to go for me.

 

one question I need to ask is this:- 8 weeks ago I was hitting the ball miles - I mean seriously miles with irons.  My 7 iron was getting 220 yards when I went for it when its usually 180 yards.  The swing I did was a backswing and the first move down was SIDE BEND TO THE RIGHT (imagining I was slinging a heavy sack onto a trailer).  It was dropping my arms down and getting weight to the left side but I was hooking my woods and hybrids off the planet.  It didn't feel like a compressed strike more like a hit upwards but the distance was far different to a nicer feeling strike.

Edited September 7, 2021 by hafnia

[hafnia]

On 9/6/2021 at 10:20 AM, TheDeanAbides said:

This thread appears to have gotten off track. There are a lot of posts about other instructors who teach wildly different swings. Hutt is a stack and tilt guy, ffs. 

 

All you need is the NTC. It's just overcomplicating what is an incredibly simple, effective and distilled full swing concept. 

 

If people keep bringing ideas in from other teachers you might as well carry on with the merry-go-round of "tried that - didn't work. Try this now" that stops people improving. 

 

This isn't my thread, so it's not my decision, but the last time I posted in here it was focused on the NTC and now it's obfuscated. 

 

there is a massive importance to call out which swing theories are different and why - from my perspective anyway.  Understanding match ups is the reason why people go off track and probably one of the reasons some golf instructors get people coming through the door with broken swings.  Monte will often explain why certain things should not be done and why.

 

Hutt doesnt seem to be stack and tilt at all.  He gets his weight on the right side, he's not loaded on his front foot - he doesn't tilt.  Have you got the right person

Edited September 7, 2021 by hafnia

[rchang72]

39 minutes ago, hafnia said:

The swing I did was a backswing and the first move down was SIDE BEND TO THE RIGHT (imagining I was slinging a heavy sack onto a trailer).  It was dropping my arms down and getting weight to the left side but I was hooking my woods and hybrids off the planet.  It didn't feel like a compressed strike more like a hit upwards but the distance was far different to a nicer feeling strike.

Try the feel of arm drop without side bend. Too early side bend dumps the club under plane and only way to attack is way inside causing hooks or blocks 

Edited September 7, 2021 by rchang72

[hafnia]

3 minutes ago, rchang72 said:

Try the feel of arm drop without side bend. Too early side bend dumps the club under plane and only way to attack is way inside causing hooks or blocks 

 

yes I think it may have worked if I was steep going back and longer clubs tend to get flatter.  This is where the understanding of matchups is important - thanks for this.