Monte's new No Turn - Cast

[TheDeanAbides]

48 minutes ago, berndgeurts said:

I think arm to 8 is past parallel, because your spine is tilted during a swing.

Arm to 8 is nowhere near parallel.

 

Edit: sorry, I didn't realise you meant left arm parallel.  

Edited October 14, 2021 by TheDeanAbides

[Hilts1969]

35 minutes ago, berndgeurts said:

I think arm to 8 is past parallel, because your spine is tilted during a swing.

 

Yeah sorry mis type with the 7 and 8 

 

7 to approx left arm parallel 

8 full swing ie more chest rotation 

[Doodlebug87]

6 hours ago, Hilts1969 said:

 

Yeah sorry mis type with the 7 and 8 

 

7 to approx left arm parallel 

8 full swing ie more chest rotation 

I also believe this to be the case - any further should be body turn which is governed by flexibility. I regularly find myself going beyond this point and it is 99% additional arm lift and/or bringing the left arm too far across my chest. Either situation makes it very hard for me to get back to the ball properly as it needs to be undone in the downswing. From Montes demonstration and AMG videos at 8 the hands should be roughly shoulder height and in line with the trail shoulder from the dtl view - it has become obvious to me that my hands have a tendency to get much deeper and sometimes higher which is a recipe for disaster. AMG regularly point out that past LAP it is largely all rotation. No expert here so I may be talking rubbish of course!

[higgle-the-elder]

2 hours ago, Doodlebug87 said:

I also believe this to be the case - any further should be body turn which is governed by flexibility. I regularly find myself going beyond this point and it is 99% additional arm lift and/or bringing the left arm too far across my chest. Either situation makes it very hard for me to get back to the ball properly as it needs to be undone in the downswing. From Montes demonstration and AMG videos at 8 the hands should be roughly shoulder height and in line with the trail shoulder from the dtl view - it has become obvious to me that my hands have a tendency to get much deeper and sometimes higher which is a recipe for disaster. AMG regularly point out that past LAP it is largely all rotation. No expert here so I may be talking rubbish of course!

 

This is the conclusion I'm coming to as well. I watched an AMG video about the backswing last night and what they teach is almost identical to what's in NTC. The difference was what you pointed out—they mentioned that once you swing to left arm parallel, you finish it with a bit more rotation. Of course, Monte says something similar with the left arm move to 8 o'clock—it just wasn't as clear to me as the AMG video for some reason. I started working on pure body rotation from that point and my turn looked and felt so much different from how it's felt my entire life. It was waaaay less laid off and made me realize, even after all this work with NTC, I'm still overswinging with my arms 🤦‍♂️

 

Of course, results are yet to be determined as this is all being done in my living room, but I love that everyday is a new discovery since getting into NTC and finding other similar teachers.

[Hilts1969]

4 hours ago, Doodlebug87 said:

I also believe this to be the case - any further should be body turn which is governed by flexibility. I regularly find myself going beyond this point and it is 99% additional arm lift and/or bringing the left arm too far across my chest. Either situation makes it very hard for me to get back to the ball properly as it needs to be undone in the downswing. From Montes demonstration and AMG videos at 8 the hands should be roughly shoulder height and in line with the trail shoulder from the dtl view - it has become obvious to me that my hands have a tendency to get much deeper and sometimes higher which is a recipe for disaster. AMG regularly point out that past LAP it is largely all rotation. No expert here so I may be talking rubbish of course!

 

AMG go even further or should I say shorter. By club parallel(P2) your arm work is done just turn and re centre. The problem is when you are tired or just concentrating on hitting the ball we don’t realise we are taking the easier option and stop turning and start lifting. 

[TheDeanAbides]

8 hours ago, higgle-the-elder said:

 

This is the conclusion I'm coming to as well. I watched an AMG video about the backswing last night and what they teach is almost identical to what's in NTC. The difference was what you pointed out—they mentioned that once you swing to left arm parallel, you finish it with a bit more rotation. Of course, Monte says something similar with the left arm move to 8 o'clock—it just wasn't as clear to me as the AMG video for some reason. I started working on pure body rotation from that point and my turn looked and felt so much different from how it's felt my entire life. It was waaaay less laid off and made me realize, even after all this work with NTC, I'm still overswinging with my arms 🤦‍♂️

 

Of course, results are yet to be determined as this is all being done in my living room, but I love that everyday is a new discovery since getting into NTC and finding other similar teachers.

The push to 8 that Monte teaches us an exaggeration for people who have huge overswings. Ideally is just a small shoulder turn. 

[SattP]

I've been concentrating hard on this for the last two plus months. It's the first video series I thought was comprehensive enough to actually buy into fully given how detailed and straightforward it is. I've always been a fan of Monte's contributions but this is the first time I've ever felt comfortable enough to incorporate them. I'm a tinkerer so I felt like I took to it fairly fast but I know there's a lot to groove. I've never felt so horizontal on the downswing nor posted up on my left side through the ball, it's really eye opening. 

 

I'd really like to be corrected if I'm wrong, but here's my key takeaways currently:

 

1) I have a stronger grip (3 - 3.5 knuckles) so I don't feel the need to flatten too much on the backswing as long as it doesn't overly cup. Monte himself said neutral to slightly cupped is the desirable position here so that's given me a lot of freedom. The weird thing is, I feel like the hands in the backswing aren't actually loading anything. I'm getting my vertical hinge to set up the loading when it comes to the casting. Doing this really frees me up from overswinging since I know the loading for the downswing comes later.

 

2) If the lead arm aims at 8:00, Cast A happens around 8:15 and can happen to 9:00 or so if I really want some shaft lean. I mistakenly cast towards 8 which felt "over" my hands and made it really hard to gain horizontal leverage to do the Cast B action. 

 

3) To the earlier points, Cast A feels more like anything of a vertical dump to flatten out the shaft/CoM and the loading of the left wrist flexion for the horizontal dump. Maybe it's because of #1, where I mention I don't have much flexion in the backswing but I feel I just dump my vertical angle to a parallel to the ground feel, get the club face feeling square on my horizontal plane and load my wrists for the horizontal dump as desired. The Cast B video has a part that's one minute in where Monte isolates the wrist movements and I think this is that in practice. Backswing hinges up, Cast A hinges down and loads the wrist for the horizontal dump - this must occur behind the hands to be able to unload properly. 

 

If I'm wrong, I'd love correction. I'm smoking the ball across the bag with really manageable misses.

 

Additionally, I really love the partial wedge shots of going Backswing A, Backswing B into Cast B. Very strong feeling partial shots that feel controllable. 

[DeadPoets]

when you re-center (or hip bump) do you have the feeling that your lead hip and lead shoulder work down? 

Edited October 17, 2021 by DeadPoets

[naj959]

Been struggling with consistency lately, especially with driver and decided to revisit NTC. After a few range sessions I played my first round today doing the backswing to 7 and then 8 followed by cast A. Struck it sooooo pure. Went from hitting wipey cuts with driver to very tight draws. Club felt like a weapon for the first time in a long time. The best part was I got more distance throughout the bag due to both better contact and feeling the body extend and pull up on the handle through impact. It's quite addicting when you get that part right. My regular playing partner kept commenting on how flush I was hitting everything. At one point he asked me for driving tips and I tried to show him but lost him as soon as I said "cast" haha. NTC is the truth. Just need to figure out how to hit half wedge shots because I don't feel like I have enough time to do cast A and bladed a few of those. Will experiment with just doing cast B for half shots. I'll definitely be adding Broomforce to my library and hopefully pickup even more yardage.

[TheDeanAbides]

3 hours ago, naj959 said:

Been struggling with consistency lately, especially with driver and decided to revisit NTC. After a few range sessions I played my first round today doing the backswing to 7 and then 8 followed by cast A. Struck it sooooo pure. Went from hitting wipey cuts with driver to very tight draws. Club felt like a weapon for the first time in a long time. The best part was I got more distance throughout the bag due to both better contact and feeling the body extend and pull up on the handle through impact. It's quite addicting when you get that part right. My regular playing partner kept commenting on how flush I was hitting everything. At one point he asked me for driving tips and I tried to show him but lost him as soon as I said "cast" haha. NTC is the truth. Just need to figure out how to hit half wedge shots because I don't feel like I have enough time to do cast A and bladed a few of those. Will experiment with just doing cast B for half shots. I'll definitely be adding Broomforce to my library and hopefully pickup even more yardage.

Shorter swings only give you time for cast B. That's the way to go. 👍🏻

[Seattlegolfnut]

Super late to the party here....can someone re-post or direct me to the link where I can buy the NTC video? I intend to digest all 57 pages but would like to get the video first 🙂

[ThinkingPlus]

2 minutes ago, Seattlegolfnut said:

Super late to the party here....can someone re-post or direct me to the link where I can buy the NTC video? I intend to digest all 57 pages but would like to get the video first 🙂

https://rebelliongolf.com/

 

[JetPilot]

Can't recommend NTC strongly enough.  Starting to gain some ownership of the move.  Haven't picked up a club in 2 weeks due to biz and family travel and shot a 75 today.  I was really curious to see what I'd bring to the course today...and was surprised to see how reliable the NTC swing was.  I'm a 9 hcp....but starting to fall due to some lower scores.

[bortass]

Something that has really help me start to get Cast A is making a full swing at a slower speed and focusing on Cast A. I have been getting better results this way versus doing the backswing, pause, cast A, then downswing. The ball flight is a dead giveaway when I do it correctly. A very high baby draw or baby fade. So I'll do 5 slow swings thinking about Cast A and follow it with 10 regular swings w/o thinking about the cast. It creeps into the 10 regular swings more and more. I also found that it popped into my on course swing at random times, especially with my 7i, which is the club I was using for these drills. Nothing I can count on but it's great to see that it can slowly work into my swing w/o thinking about it while playing.

 

I think the main reason this is helping me more is by doing it with a slower full swing, everything is moving together and it helps me feel how it flows. It's not static at all.

 

 

[KD1]

Monte mentions a few times in this video something along the lines of

Quote

the whole idea is to get the center of mass of the club behind the hands in the down the line view

 

Hopefully I didn't butcher that... Anyway, what does behind the hands mean exactly? Relative to the swing plane, the horizontal plane, or anywhere in between?

 

Monte mentioned Alex Noren's rehearsal drill as an example, I assume this is it. Clearly the club head gets 'behind his hands', or whole body rather, relative to the horizontal plane

[Tpfol]

3 hours ago, KD1 said:

Monte mentions a few times in this video something along the lines of

 

Hopefully I didn't butcher that... Anyway, what does behind the hands mean exactly? Relative to the swing plane, the horizontal plane, or anywhere in between?

 

Monte mentioned Alex Noren's rehearsal drill as an example, I assume this is it. Clearly the club head gets 'behind his hands', or whole body rather, relative to the horizontal plane

Just my .02 but The Noren drill appears to be of the broomforce drill set, the intention of holding off the club there seems to be a bit adverse to NTC.

As far as NTC goes, (again just in my understanding) keeping the mass of the club behind the hands is reliant on cast A to 8 oclock while the hands are on path to ball. From down the line perspective, the clubhead  being sent to 8 oclock while the body rotates essentially makes it impossible for the clubhead to get in front of hands

Just how I see it

[PracticeSwinger]

4 hours ago, KD1 said:

Monte mentions a few times in this video something along the lines of

 

Hopefully I didn't butcher that... Anyway, what does behind the hands mean exactly? Relative to the swing plane, the horizontal plane, or anywhere in between?

 

Monte mentioned Alex Noren's rehearsal drill as an example, I assume this is it. Clearly the club head gets 'behind his hands', or whole body rather, relative to the horizontal plane

Don't hold it against me - just a newbie and others will chime in... but my understanding is - from a DTL perspective; from the top, if you trace the path that your hands take to the impact zone and compare it to the path of the COM of the club (along the shaft, it's closer to the clubhead obviously)... you want your hand path to be 'to the right' (if you're a righty) and the COM of the club to be 'on the left' -> a shallow couple / move... that was demonstated to help square the clubface at impact (see Sasho's paper)... it is why you practice Cast A as it is helpful to attain that relation (COM left trace, hands right trace) 

[Simpsonia]

I've had a breakthrough (#4,349 if you're counting). This time I was trying to be much more methodical in my practice and approach to practicing NTC and Broomforce. The key was to just slow everything down.

 

My practice was trying to incorporate the feelings of the counter-top drill with cast A. I had to have two thoughts to start, first was cast to 8 slow, slow, slow while keeping my shoulders completely closed. First, by slow, I mean literally almost feel like it's just the weight of your arms and club doing the movement to 8 o'clock, almost like a little 20-30 yard chip shot. Second, I found that I got lazy with my shoulder turn and would let it go too early (this lead to OTT since it reduced my depth too early). If I consciously tried to keep my left shoulder pointed down between my toes while I did zipper-away and casted to 8 o'clock, it finally started to click. Once I got to 8 o'clock, I simply fired the hips as fast as I could. 

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, Simpsonia said:

I've had a breakthrough (#4,349 if you're counting). This time I was trying to be much more methodical in my practice and approach to practicing NTC and Broomforce. The key was to just slow everything down.

 

My practice was trying to incorporate the feelings of the counter-top drill with cast A. I had to have two thoughts to start, first was cast to 8 slow, slow, slow while keeping my shoulders completely closed. First, by slow, I mean literally almost feel like it's just the weight of your arms and club doing the movement to 8 o'clock, almost like a little 20-30 yard chip shot. Second, I found that I got lazy with my shoulder turn and would let it go too early (this lead to OTT since it reduced my depth too early). If I consciously tried to keep my left shoulder pointed down between my toes while I did zipper-away and casted to 8 o'clock, it finally started to click. Once I got to 8 o'clock, I simply fired the hips as fast as I could. 

I would not recommend firing your hips. They generally need to be left alone to do their own thing. Focusing on them usually leads to timing and sync issues. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by TheDeanAbides

[Simpsonia]

Fine then just call it turning aggressively through the swing (ala bump dump and turn). I know firing the hips from the top is a bad thing because of timing and sync. I was specifically discussing how I hold off on the turn to perform Monte's cast A moves to sync everything up before even considering the lower body. I'm not sure how you'd turn aggressively once the upper body and lower body are synced without firing the hips. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Simpsonia

[TheDeanAbides]

12 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

Fine then just call it turning aggressively through the swing (ala bump dump and turn). I know firing the hips from the top is a bad thing because of timing and sync. I was specifically discussing how I hold off on the turn to perform Monte's cast A moves to sync everything up before even considering the lower body. I'm not sure how you'd turn aggressively once the upper body and lower body are synced without firing the hips. 

"Firing the hips" as a concept is the problem. The turn part of bump, dump and turn should never be actively initiated by the hips. Feeling like you turn everything through together will be a much better feeling for creating a synced up swing. 👍🏻

[Simpsonia]

I mean I guess agree to disagree that nobody can ever have lower body swing thoughts. Monte has stated in the past that different people might have to have different thoughts or intents, and some might even need to have lower body swing thoughts. Yes, he's said that most people need upper body thoughts to avoid firing the hips from the top and getting out of sync, but some others still need lower body thoughts. For me, I need to have a lower body intent once I've completed cast A, or else I end up stalling out and falling into an old, ingrained, poorly coached baseball swing movement from middle school where the coach wanted us to resist body turn and just throw the bat at the ball with the arms to get easy but weak contact. 

[Hilts1969]

On 10/28/2021 at 5:10 PM, Simpsonia said:

I've had a breakthrough (#4,349 if you're counting). This time I was trying to be much more methodical in my practice and approach to practicing NTC and Broomforce. The key was to just slow everything down.

 

My practice was trying to incorporate the feelings of the counter-top drill with cast A. I had to have two thoughts to start, first was cast to 8 slow, slow, slow while keeping my shoulders completely closed. First, by slow, I mean literally almost feel like it's just the weight of your arms and club doing the movement to 8 o'clock, almost like a little 20-30 yard chip shot. Second, I found that I got lazy with my shoulder turn and would let it go too early (this lead to OTT since it reduced my depth too early). If I consciously tried to keep my left shoulder pointed down between my toes while I did zipper-away and casted to 8 o'clock, it finally started to click. Once I got to 8 o'clock, I simply fired the hips as fast as I could. 

 

I'm not sure 3 feelings in one to start the transition is a great idea tbh.  Counter top drill and left shoulder down should be enough. I think if we pick a body and arm move that work together it's much easier. 

 

Club Face down shoulder down.

 

I have only just started but I go 

 

Counter drill as above 

Next continue with the club to the ground and sweep broom drill

Lastly take a proper swing at the ball

 

When I practice 50 yd pitches I do the broom practice drill then hit a ball with the hockey drill.

 

I leave the hips to do what they do.

[CasualLie]

In my mind, trying to sync a drill I’ve been working on with the 2nd cast from NTC.  Want to make sure I’m doing something consistent and not heading down the wrong path.

 

Pardon the clock confusion,  but the drill I’m working is just an extension of your typical 9-3 drill.  I’m doing 10-2.  When I get to 2 on through swing, I try to hold it, and my checkpoint is to see if the knuckles of my right hand / back of hand is facing me.  It’s a bit of an exaggeration but the idea is to make sure I’m releasing properly so I can draw the ball (of course with correct path).

 

My question @MonteScheinblum is this consistent with getting that second release in place?  

[osueng02]

I know from the commentary that the swing changes take time, but looking to see if anyone has any ideas about what do to if you are struggling with being consistent. The last two weeks my shots have been all over the place with the major miss becoming a hook. I feel a slide when on the downswing and today it felt like my B cast might have been going left and not out.

 

Just seeing if anyone had the same issue with the hooks and any insights that brought it back to a straight ball flight. Thanks!

[MonteScheinblum]

On 10/30/2021 at 3:57 PM, CasualLie said:

In my mind, trying to sync a drill I’ve been working on with the 2nd cast from NTC.  Want to make sure I’m doing something consistent and not heading down the wrong path.

 

Pardon the clock confusion,  but the drill I’m working is just an extension of your typical 9-3 drill.  I’m doing 10-2.  When I get to 2 on through swing, I try to hold it, and my checkpoint is to see if the knuckles of my right hand / back of hand is facing me.  It’s a bit of an exaggeration but the idea is to make sure I’m releasing properly so I can draw the ball (of course with correct path).

 

My question @MonteScheinblum is this consistent with getting that second release in place?  

That’s a tough question as it’s individual.  Best I can say is do what feel works.

[naj959]

22 hours ago, osueng02 said:

I know from the commentary that the swing changes take time, but looking to see if anyone has any ideas about what do to if you are struggling with being consistent. The last two weeks my shots have been all over the place with the major miss becoming a hook. I feel a slide when on the downswing and today it felt like my B cast might have been going left and not out.

 

Just seeing if anyone had the same issue with the hooks and any insights that brought it back to a straight ball flight. Thanks!

sliding can shift path excessively to the right. Recipe for hooks. Figure out why you're sliding.

[TheDeanAbides]

On 10/31/2021 at 8:51 PM, osueng02 said:

I know from the commentary that the swing changes take time, but looking to see if anyone has any ideas about what do to if you are struggling with being consistent. The last two weeks my shots have been all over the place with the major miss becoming a hook. I feel a slide when on the downswing and today it felt like my B cast might have been going left and not out.

 

Just seeing if anyone had the same issue with the hooks and any insights that brought it back to a straight ball flight. Thanks!

Have you videoed your swing? Also how long have you been working on it with NTC?

[osueng02]

3 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Have you videoed your swing? Also how long have you been working on it with NTC?

 

I have done some video, but not the last few range sessions due to the setup of the bays not allowing for face on shots. In my earlier videos a few weeks back, I did notice some early extension and sliding, so I have been focused on trying to correct that, but the corrections haven't made a positive impact on the ball flight (Yeah, I know give it time). I am going to try and get some video this week since it is sunny and dry and I can setup with my net at home rather than under cover at the range.

 

Have been doing the drills at home ~5 days a week for at least 5 minutes then a range session and was playing a 9 hole fall league once a week for the last 8 weeks. Trying to get it so I can play 18 before the weather shuts down the season.

[TheDeanAbides]

17 minutes ago, osueng02 said:

 

I have done some video, but not the last few range sessions due to the setup of the bays not allowing for face on shots. In my earlier videos a few weeks back, I did notice some early extension and sliding, so I have been focused on trying to correct that, but the corrections haven't made a positive impact on the ball flight (Yeah, I know give it time). I am going to try and get some video this week since it is sunny and dry and I can setup with my net at home rather than under cover at the range.

 

Have been doing the drills at home ~5 days a week for at least 5 minutes then a range session and was playing a 9 hole fall league once a week for the last 8 weeks. Trying to get it so I can play 18 before the weather shuts down the season.

Thanks for the info. Firstly, regarding your EE: can you take a photo at home of your setup position with a ball from DTL? Might be a setup issue that's contributing to the EE.

With regard to seeing improvements: was that at least five mins a day and one range session a week for 8 weeks? If so then you need to be realistic. There's not a frozen ball of water's chance in the Bad Place that you're going to "get it" in that time. I don't know what standard you are, but I was a decent player and I spent two months hitting balls for an hour every single day plus dry work at home (all with wedges just on P3 swings) before I even attempted Cast A. That made a huge difference.

Hit a thousand balls with every one of them hit with intention and then see where you are. You'll probably see a small difference, but if you're doing it correctly you'll be a little better by the spring. Do hundreds of slow reps at home with a mirror will help, but it's still more realistic to think of it as a two year project that'll help change your golfing life forever. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by TheDeanAbides