The Tour set ups are too dang easy

[KRAMER1997]

I was watching the Northern Trust this weekend and what Dustin did was impressive, but to me it just seems like the courses are set up too damn easy. I think -12 is a pretty respectable score over the course of 4 days, but in a lot of tournaments nowadays it doesn't even get you a top 10 finish. I think more tour events should be set up similar to the way Harding Park was for the PGA, tough but fair. It's boring watching guys shoot -20 every week. The first thing I would do to fix this is to put a premium on driving accuracy. Grow the rough out to 4-5 inches and make it a one shot penalty to miss them. I don't want a US Open to break out every week 

[Krt22]

If you remove DJs insane performance (which it absolutely was),  is -19 vs -13 all that much different once you factor in the conditions? In reality the weather was just as much a factor as setup. In SF it was cold, windy, and with no rain, where as Boston was hot, humid, less wind, and had ultra receptive greens due to the rain

 

Watching guys hack out of tricked up rough every week would get really boring IMHO

Edited August 24, 2020 by Krt22

[Ghost of Snead]

Scores at TPC Boston have always been low. There have been a few winners over the years at -20 or lower.

[m d g]

Some courses are easy...we don't see super low scores every week so it's fun once in a while to see a shootout. Everyone has the same chance to go low.

[Smada962]

These guys are so good that in order to get winning scores down closer to par you typically have to "trick up" the course to where you now are not rewarding who is playing the best golf anymore.  Very few courses in the world can be set up fairly to challenge these guys.  We've seen many US Opens where great shots are not rewarded and often times it takes as much luck as anything to win. 

 

I also will never understand why so many golf fans prefer to see the world's best struggle.  I've said this many times on here but in almost no other sport do the fans root for the players to struggle and play poorly, it's very odd.  

Edited August 25, 2020 by Smada962

[mcounci2]

4 minutes ago, Smada962 said:

These guys are so good that in order to get winning scores down closer to par you typically have to "trick up" the course to where you now are not rewarding who is playing the best golf anymore.  Very few courses in the world can be set up fairly to challenge these guys.  We've seen many US Opens where great shots are not rewarded and often times it takes as much luck as anything to win. 

 

I also will never understand why so many golf fans prefer to see the world's best struggle.  I've said this many times on here but in almost no other sport do the fans root for the players to struggle and play poorly, it's very odd.  

It's the same argument as "make NBA hoops 14 feet off the ground, I hate these 120-114 games," or "push the fences back to 500 feet, home runs suck."

I think the complaint about seeing pros do very well stems from the (misplaced) idea that we are playing the same game the pros are, and the idea that some "woke" fans have that offense is too mainstream. 

 

Most people struggle at golf, and it's my feeling that people don't like to watch others be much much better at something than they are.  The majority of people cannot play football, baseball, real 5 on 5 basketball, or ice hockey, but most people can play golf.  If 11 on 11 full pad pickup games of football were common, I bet you'd have people wanting NFL fields to be 140 yards long. 

Think about "that guy" you know who thinks he could be the Cowboys' offensive coordinator, or who always mentions that they played baseball for 14 years and quit because they didn't want Tommy John.  It's always the same things...."I like 7-3 football games," "Pitchers' duels are REAL baseball," etc.  Wanting to see PGA pros hack out of rough, play defensively, card 290, and win is the same thing.  "Enfranchised" fans, in my experience, love the Defense>>Offense hot take, almost purely for the reason that it is, in fact, a hot take.

Edited August 25, 2020 by mcounci2

[gvogel]

14 minutes ago, Smada962 said:

These guys are so good that in order to get winning scores down closer to par you typically have to "trick up" the course to where you now are not rewarding who is playing the best golf anymore.  Very few courses in the world can be set up fairly to challenge these guys.  We've seen many US Opens where great shots are not rewarded and often times it takes as much luck as anything to win. 

 

I also will never understand why so many golf fans prefer to see the world's best struggle.  I've said this many times on here but in almost no other sport do the fans root for the players to struggle and play poorly, it's very odd.  

It isn't that we want the best players in the world to struggle.  We want them to be sufficiently challenged.

[kozubs]

I don't know.  I do agree with growing the rough out.  Especially around the green.  Miss a green, pay the price or make a great shot.  At my home course in April and May, you have a 50% chance of losing your ball in the rough.  I often find multiple balls a round just off the fairway.  I love seeing these guys play big flops or miraculous up and down from buried lies around the greens.  

 

I guess one concern with growing the rough is the affect it can have on the draw. People playing after a rain or in the early morning dew will be at a disadvantage but you can't control rain just as you can't control the wind.  Hopefully after 4 days, things even out.    You could say the same about poiana growing up in the afternoon  making the greens bumpy.  We play out doors in a changing environment.  The player who can adapt has a deserved advantage.  

 

I don't however think shooting 20 under par is a big deal.  Everyone plays the same course.  They're competing against each other, not the course so what does it matter what they shoot.  As long as its fair I'm ok with it.  

 

[Smada962]

32 minutes ago, kozubs said:

I don't know.  I do agree with growing the rough out.  Especially around the green.  Miss a green, pay the price or make a great shot.  At my home course in April and May, you have a 50% chance of losing your ball in the rough.  I often find multiple balls a round just off the fairway.  I love seeing these guys play big flops or miraculous up and down from buried lies around the greens.  

 

I guess one concern with growing the rough is the affect it can have on the draw. People playing after a rain or in the early morning dew will be at a disadvantage but you can't control rain just as you can't control the wind.  Hopefully after 4 days, things even out.    You could say the same about poiana growing up in the afternoon  making the greens bumpy.  We play out doors in a changing environment.  The player who can adapt has a deserved advantage.  

 

I don't however think shooting 20 under par is a big deal.  Everyone plays the same course.  They're competing against each other, not the course so what does it matter what they shoot.  As long as its fair I'm ok with it.  

 

DJ hit all 18 greens Sunday so it wouldn't have mattered if the greenside rough was 10ft tall.  And if you intentionally caused the greens to be bumpier then you are introducing luck as one of the most important factors and not skill.  The truer the greens run the more it becomes about who can start the ball on line with the correct speed, instead of who can get the best bounce and have it luck into the hole. I do agree with a lot of what you are saying though. 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

Conditions dictate everything. There is only so much they can do when the wind lays down and rain comes in prior to the tournament. They are just that good. I think most weeks the rough could probably be a bit more penal, but I don't think I'd want to see major type conditions every week. 

[Smada962]

49 minutes ago, gvogel said:

It isn't that we want the best players in the world to struggle.  We want them to be sufficiently challenged.

Everyone is playing the same course though, so it doesn't matter what the winning score is.  It's still just as big of a challenge to out shoot the other guys whether that number is par or -30.  It just hurts fans egos to see these guys do something they couldn't even do in a video game.  And if it was no challenge then why did so many big name players not come within 20 strokes of him? 

[Smada962]

1 hour ago, mcounci2 said:

It's the same argument as "make NBA hoops 14 feet off the ground, I hate these 120-114 games," or "push the fences back to 500 feet, home runs suck."

I think the complaint about seeing pros do very well stems from the (misplaced) idea that we are playing the same game the pros are, and the idea that some "woke" fans have that offense is too mainstream. 

 

Most people struggle at golf, and it's my feeling that people don't like to watch others be much much better at something than they are.  The majority of people cannot play football, baseball, real 5 on 5 basketball, or ice hockey, but most people can play golf.  If 11 on 11 full pad pickup games of football were common, I bet you'd have people wanting NFL fields to be 140 yards long. 

Think about "that guy" you know who thinks he could be the Cowboys' offensive coordinator, or who always mentions that they played baseball for 14 years and quit because they didn't want Tommy John.  It's always the same things...."I like 7-3 football games," "Pitchers' duels are REAL baseball," etc.  Wanting to see PGA pros hack out of rough, play defensively, card 290, and win is the same thing.  "Enfranchised" fans, in my experience, love the Defense>>Offense hot take, almost purely for the reason that it is, in fact, a hot take.

Couldn't agree with you more.  Golfers egos are extremely fragile, and in the end it's jealousy that they are soooooo far away from these guys from a talent standpoint.  Then you get the old timers who of course just think everything and everyone was better back in their day.  

[kozubs]

2 hours ago, Smada962 said:

DJ hit all 18 greens Sunday so it wouldn't have mattered if the greenside rough was 10ft tall.  And if you intentionally caused the greens to be bumpier then you are introducing luck as one of the most important factors and not skill.  The truer the greens run the more it becomes about who can start the ball on line with the correct speed, instead of who can get the best bounce and have it luck into the hole. I do agree with a lot of what you are saying though. 

I probably didn't state that well.  I meant that you can't stop the poiana from growing and making the green bumpier  in the afternoon making it tougher on the later players.  Unavoidable but part of the game.  Unless you change the grass.  

 

I think the ruling to allow the tapping down of spike marks and pitch marks was a great change to the rules.  Why should someone be penalized by a spike mark from someone before. 

 

 

[Cpr3584]

the course and conditions are a factor yes, but to me its the quality of play these days. We are told golf is not a game of "perfect" but these guys have nearly perfected the golf swing with modern day instruction, equipment and fitness.  Back in 2006 US Open at Winged Foot, the winning score was over par in normal conditions. I highly doubt the winner this year will be over par, and it goes to show how much the game and quality of play as evolved thanks mostly to video analysis etc 

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Cpr3584

[llewol007]

You can only do so much since the course has to be fair for the whole field and not just DJ or Brooks or guys who hit it a ton. At the end of the day, everybody plays the same course so there is no advantage other than what you brought with you. I know what you mean when you say the course is too easy but these players are the top 1% of the best. 

[2Down]

It was a 7300 yard par 71.  Seems tough to me.  That they can rip it up is why I watch.   

[trilerian]

I still don't get why people have an issue with it.   Personally I like watching them destroy courses.  I don't like it when there seems to be too much an element of luck.  I'm still waiting for a pro to score in real life as good as I can on Tiger Woods PGA Tour 2006.  

 

If I am watching for entertainment value, I tune it to watch the big names go really low, or to watch Tiger.  If I want to watch to be inspired and see what is possible for me at times, I watch the LPGA. 

 

 

[elwhippy]

DJ was on another planet and the course ran much faster but -30 is getting silly. What baffles me is the ongoing trend of moving tees up. Our club held its championship qualifier at the weekend. Pins tucked away or at the back of the green, tees at the maximum distance.....the course was made harder to test the best. As a result scores went up, not down.

 

It would be interesting to know what the yardages played are against what is on the scorecard....I know Birkdale played under 6750 when the 62 was shot....

[shanx]

As amateurs, it's "me against the course".

With pros, "it's me against him/her".

 

There is a fine line between "scoring conditions" and "fair course setup", we have all seen what happens when courses are set up to be "a true test".

 

I thought the course was fine, just that DJ had a heck of a week, and an amazing Sunday, the course is what it is.

[MUNIGRIT]

I alwys thought they should put some of these forum and IG pros in a group on sunday and tee off to see what they shoot to show how tough the tracks are. Phil even addressed it in his post round yesterday. These guys are good period and if course is soft they will torch it.

[CokeZero]

Put an event at Bayonet, about 10 years ago the Nationwide went there and the winner was like -3 lol. 

[ChrisL52188]

I think there should be one tournament where you have an extreme setup...  Try this course for a change... Ko'olau Golf Club. Make that course like US Open. LOL.  Scott Simpson shot 80 there and that wasn't even the back tees.  If you had a US Open setup there, the winner would be 20 over. Easy. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by ChrisL52188

[ChrisL52188]

7 hours ago, Cpr3584 said:

the course and conditions are a factor yes, but to me its the quality of play these days. We are told golf is not a game of "perfect" but these guys have nearly perfected the golf swing with modern day instruction, equipment and fitness.  Back in 2006 US Open at Winged Foot, the winning score was over par in normal conditions. I highly doubt the winner this year will be over par, and it goes to show how much the game and quality of play as evolved thanks mostly to video analysis etc 

 

Wigned Foot will be over par....  When the rough is 5-6 inch deep, they can't do anything but bogey. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by ChrisL52188

[A.Princey]

I think these setups really demonstrate how good the pros are vs regular joes. Any scratch golfer at TPC Boston likely finishes overpar by a fair margin, only further deflating their hope & "pipe dream" aspirations of turning pro someday. Travelling +5 or better and maybe then, and only then.

[A.Princey]

11 hours ago, Smada962 said:

These guys are so good that in order to get winning scores down closer to par you typically have to "trick up" the course to where you now are not rewarding who is playing the best golf anymore.  Very few courses in the world can be set up fairly to challenge these guys.  We've seen many US Opens where great shots are not rewarded and often times it takes as much luck as anything to win. 

 

I also will never understand why so many golf fans prefer to see the world's best struggle.  I've said this many times on here but in almost no other sport do the fans root for the players to struggle and play poorly, it's very odd.  

It's the one sport that doesn't require ridiculous athleticism to play at a decently high level, and that leads to many avg Joe's getting an ego about their talent. Once the pro's slaughter a course, their ego is hurt because their game and the one the pro's play is separated that much further, IMO.

 

FWIW, I play to a 3-4 and my father is an aging 20-25cap, and I honestly think the difference between him and I is closer than myself and a pro.

Edited August 26, 2020 by A.Princey

[Arn]

Gotta agree. Am I the only one who doesn’t find birdies ´exciting ´ ? I’d rather watch them play difficult, strategic courses and work for pars.

[MUNIGRIT]

Easy way to drop 8 strokes off the winning par number is do what USGA does for USO. Make a par 72 course into a par 70. Tricks 90 percent of fans.

[MattyO1984]

Birdies = boring. That’s a concept with which I am just not familiar.

 

For what it is worth, I can kinda of see the point, I would want to see these guys challenged but, I would rather see a guy win it with a birdie than lose it with a bogey so on balance I’m happy enough with what we have got.

[ryanmonceaux]

Since the restart, 9 guys total have finished -20 or better with four of those at Harbour Town. So in the 10 other events, 5 guys have gotten there. 

 

Just 3 guys have done it since Rocket Mortgage (July 5) and all 3 were in the last 2 weeks. From Workday through PGA (5 events), no one finished at -20 or better. I didn't like -30 but the field was under 20 - just one golf freak went deep. 

[doublehans]

I agree. And it's not about the score. So many tour courses are set up where when choosing whether to go at pins the risk part of risk/reward equation is too low. So course management isnt really challenged enough. Golf is more interesting when these guys have to plot their around the course rather than just throwing darts. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by doublehans