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The Tour set ups are too dang easy


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It's the same argument as "make NBA hoops 14 feet off the ground, I hate these 120-114 games," or "push the fences back to 500 feet, home runs suck." I think the complaint about seeing pros do very

I'd love to see 4 10 handicappers play that course the day after the tournament to see how "easy" it is set up. I'd bet lots of money no one breaks 90.

If you remove DJs insane performance (which it absolutely was),  is -19 vs -13 all that much different once you factor in the conditions? In reality the weather was just as much a factor as setup. In

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2 minutes ago, chigolfer1 said:

I'll try in this thread, lol.  Why is it playing so incedibly hard when there is nothing obviously crazy about the course or conditions?

 

2 minutes ago, chigolfer1 said:

I'll try in this thread, lol.  Why is it playing so incedibly hard when there is nothing obviously crazy about the course or conditions?

Great design, penalizing rough, rock hard greens=fast greens, tucked pins next to bunkers, pressure trying to get to East Lake and accuracy required on all shots...a lot of defense being played here.

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1 minute ago, Titleist99 said:

 

Great design, penalizing rough, rock hard greens=fast greens, tucked pins next to bunkers, pressure trying to get to East Lake and accuracy required on all shots...a lot of defense being played here.

 

Thanks, makes sense.   I guess I don't understand why the U.S. Open has to do such weird things then.  Let's play the  U.S. Open here! Which is what I realize they're tryign to do haha

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1 minute ago, chigolfer1 said:

 

Thanks, makes sense.   I guess I don't understand why the U.S. Open has to do such weird things then.  Let's play the  U.S. Open here! Which is what I realize they're tryign to do haha

Usually the USO overdo it.....If the wind kick up their setups become unfair and the players revolt...LOL!

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7 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

 

Great design, penalizing rough, rock hard greens=fast greens, tucked pins next to bunkers, pressure trying to get to East Lake and accuracy required on all shots...a lot of defense being played here.

This is not a given. You can have hard greens that are slow and soft greens that are fast. I think the British Open usually gets it right. Very firm but not that quick. 

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8 hours ago, mjb4385 said:

At the end of the day, they are an entertainment product. Shouldn't be about what they want, should be about what's entertaining to the viewers. 30 under isn't entertaining to me, maybe it is to some though.


Personally I also like a little variety. I don’t mind watching them occasionally tear up courses that are set up somewhat similar to what I would sometimes play, albeit longer and with faster greens. Favours the bombers and gougers. 
 

Watching them mentally slog through and grind their way around a US Open has its own appeal but I don’t want to see that every week either...favours the even-keeled grinders and fiery Spaniards and the like need not apply.

 

Then you have the set ups in the middle where say 8-12 under wins and a larger variety of players contend. I don’t mind this, it’s like tennis where clay and grass courts historically favour different types of players and hard courts are in the middle; it provides different viewing experiences

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17 hours ago, freowho said:

This is not a given. You can have hard greens that are slow and soft greens that are fast. I think the British Open usually gets it right. Very firm but not that quick. 

 

They have to have them slower for that because there has been one in the last few years that they cut the greens too fast and short and when the wind comes the balls dont stay in place on the greens. Plus traditionally bigger mounds and sloping on every green if they dont make it slow enough removes a ton of pin places unless they just want to punish players on every hole.

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Interesting results for a poll on Sky Golf coverage just now.

 

What would you rather watch?

Birdie fest - 8%

Par is a good score - 56%

Somewhere in between - 36%

 

Seems most people are enjoying Olympic Fields.

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Last year at Medinah there was plenty of rain and this year there wasn't. It's been extremely hot and dry here in Chicago for weeks. You can praise the Tour all you want for this kind of set up, but nature has a very large say in what kind of course conditions you see week in and week out. Boston has had a wet summer from what I've heard which is some of the reason that DJ went low last week. 

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Firm and fast makes a course come alive.  There were several holes and hole locations where guys had to land their shots on the aprons and let them release up onto the greens.  In the US you don't see that often and I feel like that takes a very skill-full player to pull off and pull off to leave themselves a make-able putt.

 

While dry, the rough was still full and thick and had an impact on players' abilities to hold greens and access pins when they were not in the fairway.  That is ideal as well.  Not so deep it is an automatic punch out but deep enough to hamper spin and cause a degree of uncertainty for how the ball is going to come out and behave upon landing.

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On 8/31/2020 at 5:30 PM, BuBear09 said:

I love seeing pros get in the rough and have to punch out. makes me happy

 

It is fine when it is warranted but if that is always the only real option (certain US Open roughs) then it no longer tempts players to bite off more than they can chew.  It is also interesting when a player's ego gets him deeper into trouble.

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No, tour setups are not too easy.  Golf pros that are having a hot week, and watching the highlight reel shown on TV coverage, makes it look easy.  

 

And what's wrong with watching guys shoot under par, especially these days?  Anyone really want to see guys grind it out to 288 total?  

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On 9/2/2020 at 1:42 PM, smashdn said:

 

It is fine when it is warranted but if that is always the only real option (certain US Open roughs) then it no longer tempts players to bite off more than they can chew.  It is also interesting when a player's ego gets him deeper into trouble.

 

Watching last week I could relate to the pro game for the first time in ages. As an 11 handicapper, my starting point for every round is trying to get as close to par as I can. As an 11, I am grinding every hole to try to achieve that target. I am never free-wheeling expecting to have birdie chances on every hole. A good round for me is 9 pars, 8 bogeys and a double (my last round out woohoo!!). More typically it’s less pars and more doubles or worse. A great round is sneaking in a birdie or 2.

 

Watching pros play something more relatable to the game I play, raises my interest. The only way I can relate the -30 tournaments to my game is when I play crazy golf at the amusement park.

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I think it's easy to forget - especially when watching on the weekends - that the guys on TV are the 20 or so that are on it that week.  The courses are tough as are the pin placements. If you went to the tournament and followed the guys out early in the day and out of contention, you'd see relatable golf being played.  The guys on TV are the guys who've caught their high gears that week, and touring professionals have insanely high gears. 

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I agree that the course setup needs to be rethought.  Too many course allow the players to play bomb and gouge with little or no penalty for missing the fairway.  As the article on the home page mentions, the pros are hitting driver and wedge or at most short irons on every hole.  Challenging them to hit mid and long irons would make some difference and possibly make them hit the fairway too.  Most of the longer hitters are only hitting 50% of the fairways, but yet still score very low scores - doesn't seem right to me.  I don't think just lengthening the courses is the answer but having tight courses with some rough certainly makes it more interesting.  Look at Hilton Head for proof.  Another option is the links style course or courses like Pinehurst that challenge how you approach each shot and what club/ bounce, etc. are required.  Changing to different style courses each week would be an improvement rather than them playing on that same perfect course each week.  However, the pros are in perfect shape, have the best teachers and the best equipment - they're going to shoot low scores, but it would be more fun to see them strategize around a course rather than just hitting bombs I guess. 

 

That said I still enjoy watching them play each week, primarily just watching how they swing and hit the ball more than what they score in the tournament.  Plus it's great to see these perfectly maintained courses around the country - a little better than what I normally play on.

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5 hours ago, jimb6golf said:

 As the article on the home page mentions, the pros are hitting driver and wedge or at most short irons on every hole.  Challenging them to hit mid and long irons would make some difference and possibly make them hit the fairway too.  Most of the longer hitters are only hitting 50% of the fairways, but yet still score very low scores - doesn't seem right to me. 

 

I was just reading an interview with Paul Runyan, a professional golfer from the 1930's who passed in 2002.  He played with and against Bobby Jones numerous times.  He was of the opinion that Bobby Jones was one of the best woods players of all time.

 

On several of the Shell's Wonderful World of Golf's on youtube those guys are hitting 2 and 4 woods into par 4's and they aren't real long par 4's by today's [Tour] standards.  Slightly mishit a persimmon wood and you are 30-40 yards offline and 30-40 yards short.  Throttle back to keep it straight and you might give up 10-20 yards or more.  Maybe you only drive 250 and on an uphill par 4 of 430 you are hitting the equivalent of 220 again from the fairway.  Even on flat ground your 430 yard par four is driver (say 250) leaves 180 which is pretty stout long iron from that era, I would suspect at least a 4 iron maybe a 3 or 2 for some players.  Today that 430 is driver (320) leaving 110 which is probably a 54* for most.  Even if they only drive it 300 it is 130 which is what I hit my PW (46*).

 

@jimb6golf your post reminded me about the wood game that is also lost.

 

For the group, how long would a par five need to be to be a truly designed three shot par five (on flat ground, no forced lay-ups due to water, etc.)?

 

 

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4 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

 

I was just reading an interview with Paul Runyan, a professional golfer from the 1930's who passed in 2002.  He played with and against Bobby Jones numerous times.  He was of the opinion that Bobby Jones was one of the best woods players of all time.

 

On several of the Shell's Wonderful World of Golf's on youtube those guys are hitting 2 and 4 woods into par 4's and they aren't real long par 4's by today's [Tour] standards.  Slightly mishit a persimmon wood and you are 30-40 yards offline and 30-40 yards short.  Throttle back to keep it straight and you might give up 10-20 yards or more.  Maybe you only drive 250 and on an uphill par 4 of 430 you are hitting the equivalent of 220 again from the fairway.  Even on flat ground your 430 yard par four is driver (say 250) leaves 180 which is pretty stout long iron from that era, I would suspect at least a 4 iron maybe a 3 or 2 for some players.  Today that 430 is driver (320) leaving 110 which is probably a 54* for most.  Even if they only drive it 300 it is 130 which is what I hit my PW (46*).

 

@jimb6golf your post reminded me about the wood game that is also lost.

 

For the group, how long would a par five need to be to be a truly designed three shot par five (on flat ground, no forced lay-ups due to water, etc.)?

 

 

What are you talking about?  There are plenty of three shot par fives on tour and around the world and why does it matter if it is a forced layup? Ask yourself one simple question:  If hitting persimmon woods into par fours all day is exciting golf, why isn't it happening on The PGA Tour?  Persimmon clubs still exist and there are local tournament formats for such clubs.  I think you know the answer.  I'm guessing you don't even play persimmon on a regular basis.

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9 hours ago, oikos1 said:

What are you talking about? 

 

Ahh, I can see you completely missed the point.

 

19 hours ago, jimb6golf said:

 As the article on the home page mentions, the pros are hitting driver and wedge or at most short irons on every hole.  Challenging them to hit mid and long irons would make some difference and possibly make them hit the fairway too. 

 

^ I was responding to this.  So you can see why I quoted that I hope.

 

14 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

@jimb6golf your post reminded me about the wood game that is also lost.

 

And hopefully you can see the reasoning here ^.  By the way "wood" in this sense means 2 wood, 3 wood, 4 wood, etc. not literally "wooden-headed."

 

 

 

9 hours ago, oikos1 said:

There are plenty of three shot par fives on tour and around the world and why does it matter if it is a forced layup? Ask yourself one simple question:  If hitting persimmon woods into par fours all day is exciting golf, why isn't it happening on The PGA Tour?  Persimmon clubs still exist and there are local tournament formats for such clubs.  I think you know the answer.  I'm guessing you don't even play persimmon on a regular basis.

 

Even though I think most of your questions are based on you not understanding my point I'll entertain answering them.

 

1)There are plenty of three shot par fives on tour and around the world and why does it matter if it is a forced layup?

It doesn't matter in a playing sense, only in an architectural one.  It was more of a question to get a response related to distance than anything else.   I suspect if you took the time to answer it you would probably come up with something in the 700-800 yard range.  310 yard drive, we'll say 280 3 wood, plus whatever approach you would like to leave them, say 150 just for this exercise and you are at around 740 yards.  So why does it matter if there is a forced lay-up?  That is maybe the only way an architect can configure a true three shot par five with today's distances.  That is all.

 

2) If hitting persimmon woods into par fours all day is exciting golf, why isn't it happening on The PGA Tour?

Two things here.  First, the conversation wasn't about what is or isn't exciting, it was about lost challenges.  Secondly, I hope it is obvious to you why they aren't hitting woods in par fours all day.  They would need to be around 560-580 yards to force that assuming only a 300 yard drive.  Most courses don't have that, though they may change a par five to a four for a tournament and lower the course par overall, but you didn't add anything, you took a likely reachable par five for pros turned it from a eagle-birdie hole into a birdie-par hole but the overall strokes to play the course or hole never changed.

 

3)Persimmon clubs still exist and there are local tournament formats for such clubs.  I think you know the answer.  I'm guessing you don't even play persimmon on a regular basis.

I'm not sure what answer you were looking for.  But yeah, I am aware of persimmon tournaments and events.  Believe or not there is a whole sub-forum here sort of dedicated to the older equipment.  I frequent it.  Also the Persimmon Golf Society on facebooks and the Eternal Summer Golf Society.  So, yeah pretty aware.

 

Play persimmon more than modern clubs actually.  I typically play with a set of Hogan woods, 1, 3 and 4 and some Hogan Apex plus irons.  But I also have a bag of H&B Citation woods 1, 3, 4 and 5 with the Scotch blades, a MacGregor set of woods 1,3 and 5 and MT irons.  Plus there I think in a bag is also a Toney Penna 1 and 3 and a Cleveland 1.  I wasn't real happy with the ball flight I was getting with the Hogan 1 wood so I experimented with a few others along the way.  The Mac driver is the best for me but I can't bring myself to put that one Mac club in with the whole Hogan bag.

 

I wasn't advocating the Pros play persimmon, though I have before, it was more an example of a skill/shot that has been lost due to distance, the wood or long iron approach game that is largely lost.

 

Follow the caddy axiom.

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What tends to get overlooked is that the general modern course design means larger, flatter and smoother greens.  Which means a higher percentage of putts holed and guys making birdie or easily 2-putting for par when they would have to get up-and-down on an older course design and either come away with par-bogey scenarios and birdie practically being out of the question.

 

They also don't grow the rough high enough, particularly on par-5's.  You don't need the rough high on every hole, but maybe on 2 of the 4 par-5's grow the rough higher and force players to put an emphasis on hitting the fairway and reward those that do with the driver.  

 

 

 

 

 

RH

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2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Ahh, I can see you completely missed the point.

 

 

^ I was responding to this.  So you can see why I quoted that I hope.

 

And hopefully you can see the reasoning here ^.  By the way "wood" in this sense means 2 wood, 3 wood, 4 wood, etc. not literally "wooden-headed."

 

 

 

 

Even though I think most of your questions are based on you not understanding my point I'll entertain answering them.

 

1)There are plenty of three shot par fives on tour and around the world and why does it matter if it is a forced layup?

It doesn't matter in a playing sense, only in an architectural one.  It was more of a question to get a response related to distance than anything else.   I suspect if you took the time to answer it you would probably come up with something in the 700-800 yard range.  310 yard drive, we'll say 280 3 wood, plus whatever approach you would like to leave them, say 150 just for this exercise and you are at around 740 yards.  So why does it matter if there is a forced lay-up?  That is maybe the only way an architect can configure a true three shot par five with today's distances.  That is all.

 

2) If hitting persimmon woods into par fours all day is exciting golf, why isn't it happening on The PGA Tour?

Two things here.  First, the conversation wasn't about what is or isn't exciting, it was about lost challenges.  Secondly, I hope it is obvious to you why they aren't hitting woods in par fours all day.  They would need to be around 560-580 yards to force that assuming only a 300 yard drive.  Most courses don't have that, though they may change a par five to a four for a tournament and lower the course par overall, but you didn't add anything, you took a likely reachable par five for pros turned it from a eagle-birdie hole into a birdie-par hole but the overall strokes to play the course or hole never changed.

 

3)Persimmon clubs still exist and there are local tournament formats for such clubs.  I think you know the answer.  I'm guessing you don't even play persimmon on a regular basis.

I'm not sure what answer you were looking for.  But yeah, I am aware of persimmon tournaments and events.  Believe or not there is a whole sub-forum here sort of dedicated to the older equipment.  I frequent it.  Also the Persimmon Golf Society on facebooks and the Eternal Summer Golf Society.  So, yeah pretty aware.

 

Play persimmon more than modern clubs actually.  I typically play with a set of Hogan woods, 1, 3 and 4 and some Hogan Apex plus irons.  But I also have a bag of H&B Citation woods 1, 3, 4 and 5 with the Scotch blades, a MacGregor set of woods 1,3 and 5 and MT irons.  Plus there I think in a bag is also a Toney Penna 1 and 3 and a Cleveland 1.  I wasn't real happy with the ball flight I was getting with the Hogan 1 wood so I experimented with a few others along the way.  The Mac driver is the best for me but I can't bring myself to put that one Mac club in with the whole Hogan bag.

 

I wasn't advocating the Pros play persimmon, though I have before, it was more an example of a skill/shot that has been lost due to distance, the wood or long iron approach game that is largely lost.

 

Follow the caddy axiom.

 

The "wood or long iron approach game" is not largely lost.  It's just not needed as much.  Pros still have to be proficient with woods and long irons.

 

It appears you want to reward a particular skill, the long iron or wood, and want more of it over other skills of golf. 

 

Sidenote:  I enjoy gaming my set of Apex Plus as well, but appreciate the technology of metal "woods".

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44 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

 

The "wood or long iron approach game" is not largely lost.  It's just not needed as much. 

 

Would you then say that the opportunities to test that aspect of their games are fewer?

 

You'll have to ask @jimb6golf which article he was referring to and decide if you disagree with it.  I was just making the [basic mathematical] connection that if there are less long iron shots required due to the current length of both PGA Tour players and courses, then the same likely holds true for the wood shots.  Which from watching nearly all the SWWOG vids of that era and reading the Runyan interview that I referenced, does hold water.

 

Nobody practices the stymie shot enough to get very proficient at it.  Perhaps it is because "it's just not needed as much."

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4 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Would you then say that the opportunities to test that aspect of their games are fewer?

 

You'll have to ask @jimb6golf which article he was referring to and decide if you disagree with it.  I was just making the [basic mathematical] connection that if there are less long iron shots required due to the current length of both PGA Tour players and courses, then the same likely holds true for the wood shots.  Which from watching nearly all the SWWOG vids of that era and reading the Runyan interview that I referenced, does hold water.

 

Nobody practices the stymie shot enough to get very proficient at it.  Perhaps it is because "it's just not needed as much."

Nobody carries a jigger either.

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1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

Nobody carries a jigger either.

 

I beg to differ...Halley Jigger has saved me so many shots ?

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