Ascending Weight / Ascending Mass Technology

[games]

I'm surprised more shaft sets aren't made with ascending weight / mass.  (Lighter in long irons, heavier in short irons and wedges.)

 

Obviously, TT has AMT and Ping has AWT.  I think Nippon has a couple of models, too.

 

Anyone know why it isn't more prevalent?  Is there a graphite version somewhere?

[Stuart_G]

19 hours ago, games said:

I'm surprised more shaft sets aren't made with ascending weight / mass.  (Lighter in long irons, heavier in short irons and wedges.)

 

Obviously, TT has AMT and Ping has AWT.  I think Nippon has a couple of models, too.

 

Anyone know why it isn't more prevalent?  Is there a graphite version somewhere?

 

There was.   Aerotech had an ascending weight design for the steelfibers called the "AMI 99 Player's Spec".   Went from ~110 gm in the short irons to ~95 in the long irons.  While it was popular and well liked among those that tried them, the problem was that they were significantly more expensive than the CW steelfibers so I'm guessing the model was dropped due to poor sales.  In fact I think those were the first ascending weight iron set, that I ever heard of at least.

 

https://www.golfshaftreviews.info/aerotech-steelfiber-players-spec-iron-golf-shaft-review/

 

 

Technically the Recoils 95 to 125's are ascending weight as well, but it's only really 1 gm per shaft, so not really noticeably different than if they were CW's.

 

Haven't heard of anyone else doing it. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by Stuart_G

[mattj]

Two graphite options,  

 

https://golfshaftsamerica.com/collections/fujikura-iron-shafts/products/fujikura-mci-black-100-iron-shafts-355?variant=31329277247537

 

https://www.mca-golf.com/products/av-white-am2-irons

[Noodler]

I agree.  I would like to see more models utilizing the ascending weight approach.  My question is how these manufacturers are arriving at the increment interval for the ascension that they use in these sets.  They don't seem to be using any rhyme or reason that I can detect.  The AWT sets use a 2.1g increment for the uncut shafts (I confirmed this with Ping).  TT changed the AMT sets from the original 3.0g increment to 3.5g in the AMT Black.  Why?  The Nippon AMC has a 3.0g increment, but only from the long irons up to the 8 iron.  From there they use the same weight as the 8 iron for the 9, the PW, and the wedge shafts.  Why?

 

I'm perplexed.  I would love to hear from the designers of these shafts to understand their design principles for these models.

[Valtiel]

I honestly think that if steel shafts were built this way from the beginning that the idea of "constant weight" shafts would seem pretty silly and likely wouldn't catch on. Unfortunately this is an example of economics dictating what is better for the golfer since constant weight, or even descending weight shafts like the ones I use, are cheaper to manufacture. 

[mizunoMP14]

1 hour ago, Noodler said:

I agree.  I would like to see more models utilizing the ascending weight approach.  My question is how these manufacturers are arriving at the increment interval for the ascension that they use in these sets.  They don't seem to be using any rhyme or reason that I can detect.  The AWT sets use a 2.1g increment for the uncut shafts (I confirmed this with Ping).  TT changed the AMT sets from the original 3.0g increment to 3.5g in the AMT Black.  Why?  The Nippon AMC has a 3.0g increment, but only from the long irons up to the 8 iron.  From there they use the same weight as the 8 iron for the 9, the PW, and the wedge shafts.  Why?

 

I'm perplexed.  I would love to hear from the designers of these shafts to understand their design principles for these models.

 

 

I know that the dynamic gold AMT at 3 grams steps gets you nearly MOI matched  if you are using constant swing weights and 1/2" increments between clubs.  

 

With constant weight shafts and constant swing weights the MOI goes up in the longer irons.  These ascending weight shafts are supposed to be solving that  by making the longer irons "easier to swing" so I am not sure why they all wouldn't be at 3 gram increments that get them MOI matched. 

[Noodler]

1 hour ago, mizunoMP14 said:

 

 

I know that the dynamic gold AMT at 3 grams steps gets you nearly MOI matched  if you are using constant swing weights and 1/2" increments between clubs.  

 

With constant weight shafts and constant swing weights the MOI goes up in the longer irons.  These ascending weight shafts are supposed to be solving that  by making the longer irons "easier to swing" so I am not sure why they all wouldn't be at 3 gram increments that get them MOI matched. 

 

You may not know that I'm a hobbyist builder/fitter and have done a ton of work in the realm of MOI builds and testing.  That said, there's no way on this planet that TT created the AMT series with any thought whatsoever about MOI builds.  If they did, they wouldn't have played with the balance point of the shafts so that they would still create a swingweight matched set when used as is typical.

 

BTW - The 3g shaft weight increment does not create an MOI matched set "auto-magically".  Much more work is required to actually get there.  I have AMT sets and an MOI Auditor.

[Stuart_G]

7 hours ago, Valtiel said:

I honestly think that if steel shafts were built this way from the beginning that the idea of "constant weight" shafts would seem pretty silly and likely wouldn't catch on. Unfortunately this is an example of economics dictating what is better for the golfer since constant weight, or even descending weight shafts like the ones I use, are cheaper to manufacture. 

 

Descending weight - or single length blanks are certainly much cheaper to design and manufacture.

 

But for discrete length shafts, I doubt there's going to be any inherent difference in the manufacturing cost between constant and ascending weight.  Either way a shaft has to be separately designed and manufactured for each club in the set.

[denkea]

23 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

There was.   Aerotech had an ascending weight design for the steelfibers called the "AMI 99 Player's Spec".   Went from ~110 gm in the short irons to ~95 in the long irons.  While it was popular and well liked among those that tried them, the problem was that they were significantly more expensive than the CW steelfibers so I'm guessing the model was dropped due to poor sales.  In fact I think those were the first ascending weight iron set, that I ever heard of at least.

 

https://www.golfshaftreviews.info/aerotech-steelfiber-players-spec-iron-golf-shaft-review/

 

 

Technically the Recoils 95 to 125's are ascending weight as well, but it's only really 1 gm per shaft, so not really noticeably different than if they were CW's.

 

Haven't heard of anyone else doing it. 

Stuart ~~~~ Back in the late 90's True Temper came out with the Tri-Gold shaft.  They were  the first (that I know of) ascending weight shafts.   Just some FYI

[Stuart_G]

16 minutes ago, denkea said:

Stuart ~~~~ Back in the late 90's True Temper came out with the Tri-Gold shaft.  They were  the first (that I know of) ascending weight shafts.   Just some FYI

 

Well, I also couldn't remember when Ping started offering the AWT's.   I think around 2006 which was also before the aerotech's.

[mcounci2]

On 8/31/2020 at 7:45 AM, games said:

I'm surprised more shaft sets aren't made with ascending weight / mass.  (Lighter in long irons, heavier in short irons and wedges.)

 

Obviously, TT has AMT and Ping has AWT.  I think Nippon has a couple of models, too.

 

Anyone know why it isn't more prevalent?  Is there a graphite version somewhere?

 

MCA makes Tensei AV iron shafts, three profiles (red, blue, white) and 2 flexes per profile, IIRC.

I play Tensei White AM2's in my irons.  I did this in an effort to reduce overall club mass in long irons and not work as hard to swing them.  It never really made sense to me how many/most golfers have a lighter driver, slightly heavier fairway, heavier hybrid than that, and then the long irons immediately transition to super heavy.  Forever, my shaft weight progression was
D- 73
3w- 83
3hy-95
4i- 130

5i- 130
6i- 130

7i- 130

8i- 130 

9i- 130

Wedges- 130

That doesn't look/seem logical to me.  What I ended up doing was building up a set of MP18 MMC's with the Tensei AV White AM2's, and then taping up the heads progressively to get a pretty constant or gently sloping SW scale through the set.  My shafts from driver all the way to 58 deg wedge progressively increase in weight.  I've really been liking the feel of this set, and I no longer feel like getting the long irons to do what I want is much more difficult than any other club.  Side note....turns out I prefer the feel of a graphite shaft in an iron, which is something I never thought I'd say.

Edited September 1, 2020 by mcounci2

[Howard_Jones]

21 hours ago, denkea said:

Stuart ~~~~ Back in the late 90's True Temper came out with the Tri-Gold shaft.  They were  the first (that I know of) ascending weight shafts.   Just some FYI

About TRI GOLD as cut and paste from another Webpage

"They were introduced around 2001 and (I think) were discontinued shortly thereafter. They were apparently an alternative to the Rifle Flighted Shafts. I bought a used set of irons that has these and assumed they were shite shafts, a couple pegs below the Dynamic Gold. I planned on re-shafting with some TT DG's, but I just hit the clubs last weekend and they felt pretty good. Even though these shafts were not readily accepted by the masses, they seem to have some pretty unique features. Supposedly "the industry's first shaft series to combine the benefits of Ascending Weight Technology, Progressive Flex, and Incremental Tip Stiffness". Here are some details regarding these features:

1) Ascending weight
-Shafts are progressively heavier
-3i is 109g up to 127g for the 9/PW/SW
-Supposedly improves power

2) Progressive flex
-Bend point low for 1i-4i, mid for 5i-7i, high for 8i-SW
-Supposedly improves control

3) Tri-step design pattern
-Allows for variable tip stiffness through the set
-Tip length 11.25" for 1i down to 5.25" for 9/PW/SW, .75" increments
-Supposedly better for scoring

127 to 109 from #9 to #3 gives 18 grams / 3.0 inch = 6 grams pr inch or 3 grams pr shaft just like AMT White R Flex (109 #3 and 127 #9)
AMT White with stepping options







 

[Golfrnut]

On 8/31/2020 at 11:14 PM, Noodler said:

 

You may not know that I'm a hobbyist builder/fitter and have done a ton of work in the realm of MOI builds and testing.  That said, there's no way on this planet that TT created the AMT series with any thought whatsoever about MOI builds.  If they did, they wouldn't have played with the balance point of the shafts so that they would still create a swingweight matched set when used as is typical.

 

BTW - The 3g shaft weight increment does not create an MOI matched set "auto-magically".  Much more work is required to actually get there.  I have AMT sets and an MOI Auditor.

 

 

I guess that all depends on what people's definition of 'close enough' is.  With SW matched set, I ended up with an MOI spread of about 1 1/2 grams worth of head weight.  "Fair" IMO for not using the TI version and dealing with shafts that weren't exactly on spec.  If you listed to folks like Tutleman, a gram, even with MOI builds is insignificant, others will disagree with it and say that the tolerance needs to be closer.  All depends on where we wanna draw that line for that is MOI matched and what isn't.  

 

To an extend, I actually think they were thinking about it, there's just no way they could use it in their marketing scheme as it's just way too much technical information for what the average golfer wants.  Instead, 'easier to swing and ball goes higher' is much more simplified and easier to digest.

[games]

Just resurrecting this thread to thank @Howard_Jones for the description of the Tri-Gold and admit a little egg on my face.

 

This morning, I was going through some "inventory" I have collected over the years.  I came across a set of pulls from a set bought off the bay four or five years ago.  What I thought were just basic DG S300s were actually the Tri-Golds that Howard described!  

 

Of course, at the time, I bought the set for the heads.  The shafts those heads went into?  AMT S300, of course.  I'm an idiot...  LOL!

 

Anyway, I just wanted to add I couldn't believe the price of the graphite ascending weight shafts mentioned previously for aftermarket sale.  $75-$90 per shaft?  I have just been fit into some Steelfiber i95s, which are constant weight (post-trim) and a little more reasonable at $53 new.

[Pepperturbo]

I have Mitsubishi TENSEI™ AV White AM02 Iron "S" in my Titleist 620 MB CB series irons.  Two-gram Ascending weight, 2i is 90g - PW is 108g, even have 108g in 52*.  They are NOT cheap though, $75+install ea.  Tensei AV White 6i to PW "feel" similar to Steelfiber i110 "S", except maybe more stout tip and handle.  Dispersion is not an issue.  I have them Swing Weighted at D1/D2 so feel similar to steel, yet the benefits of lightweight graphite and distance.

 

Steelfiber offers FC shafts, cw yet different weight offerings.  Seems to me to be the opposite of Tensei AV.

 

Similar yet different from "flighted."  I suspect like all things costly, advertising is limited because these type of shafts are for strong players.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[Golfrnut]

On 9/2/2020 at 8:25 AM, Golfrnut said:

 

 

I guess that all depends on what people's definition of 'close enough' is.  With SW matched set, I ended up with an MOI spread of about 1 1/2 grams worth of head weight.  "Fair" IMO for not using the TI version and dealing with shafts that weren't exactly on spec.  If you listed to folks like Tutleman, a gram, even with MOI builds is insignificant, others will disagree with it and say that the tolerance needs to be closer.  All depends on where we wanna draw that line for that is MOI matched and what isn't.  

 

To an extend, I actually think they were thinking about it, there's just no way they could use it in their marketing scheme as it's just way too much technical information for what the average golfer wants.  Instead, 'easier to swing and ball goes higher' is much more simplified and easier to digest.

probably worth correcting my own information since this thread got bumped. My math has been a bit off here. Four sets into this now, the spread is a bit wider than I thought it would be. With MOI matches within 5 points MOI, I’m seeing a pretty consistent 2-2.5 Sw points across a set. Think there’s a bit left out on Tutleman’s site. From my experience, 1 gram is worth about 8 points in the shorter clubs and 12-13 in the longer irons. The 20 point thing appears to more-so apply to driver lengths. 
 

Another tweak that has helped...don’t try to build matched sets with the grips on.

[dmbrill719]

I just wish Mitsu would come out w/ a Tensei White AMT based off of a 125g wedge as opposed to 108.  I love the AMT concept and I love the recoil 110's in my long irons but I don't want to start my short irons at 108...

[HSTNGolfer]

5 hours ago, Golfrnut said:

probably worth correcting my own information since this thread got bumped. My math has been a bit off here. Four sets into this now, the spread is a bit wider than I thought it would be. With MOI matches within 5 points MOI, I’m seeing a pretty consistent 2-2.5 Sw points across a set. Think there’s a bit left out on Tutleman’s site. From my experience, 1 gram is worth about 8 points in the shorter clubs and 12-13 in the longer irons. The 20 point thing appears to more-so apply to driver lengths. 
 

Another tweak that has helped...don’t try to build matched sets with the grips on.

What shafts did you use? DG AMT White S300? 6i length? Length increments? MOI and SW values?

 

I have a set of DG AMT (original version) S300 shafts and DG AMT Black S300 shafts waiting to be put to use. I have built several sets of MOI matched clubs for myself and for friends, with a variety of different shafts, including descending weight (Wishon Stepless S, KBS Tour 90 R), constant weight (DG XP105 S300, KBS Tour R+, Tour 90 S, Tour V S, Nippon NS Pro 8950 and 1050 GH) and ascending weight (Ping AWT 2.0 S). The XP105s were for a very tall friend and were +1" vs Mizuno standard and used 0.5" increments. The rest all had 3/8" increments. 

 

I got the best results with 3/8" increments working off the most comfortable 9i length. Initially I was using the 7i as the reference length, but have now moved to building off the 9i as reference. I play my 9i at 0.5" longer than "standard", i.e. 36.5" (ungripped cut length = 36 3/8"). The MOI match for 2710 kg-cm^2 with cut shaft weights in the 104-108g range leads to a head weight progression of about 6.3g per club (17g/inch). 

 

I am considering using 11mm increments on the next build using constant weight shafts. In theory, that would give MOI matches with 7g per head changes from club to club. I have a set of Miura CB-501 heads waiting to be assembled, so the head weight tolerances are very tight. 

 

For the AWT2.0 shafts I used 10mm (slightly more than 3/8") length increments. The shaft weight slope was increasing about 2g per club, heads increasing by 6.4g per club and the total club weights by 8.4g/club or about 21g/inch. The longer irons just felt very light compared to the shorter irons. 

 

For the AMT shafts, are most MOI builds using a 0.5" length increment? 

[Golfrnut]

28 minutes ago, HSTNGolfer said:

What shafts did you use? DG AMT White S300? 6i length? Length increments? MOI and SW values?

 

I have a set of DG AMT (original version) S300 shafts and DG AMT Black S300 shafts waiting to be put to use. I have built several sets of MOI matched clubs for myself and for friends, with a variety of different shafts, including descending weight (Wishon Stepless S, KBS Tour 90 R), constant weight (DG XP105 S300, KBS Tour R+, Tour 90 S, Tour V S, Nippon NS Pro 8950 and 1050 GH) and ascending weight (Ping AWT 2.0 S). The XP105s were for a very tall friend and were +1" vs Mizuno standard and used 0.5" increments. The rest all had 3/8" increments. 

 

I got the best results with 3/8" increments working off the most comfortable 9i length. Initially I was using the 7i as the reference length, but have now moved to building off the 9i as reference. I play my 9i at 0.5" longer than "standard", i.e. 36.5" (ungripped cut length = 36 3/8"). The MOI match for 2710 kg-cm^2 with cut shaft weights in the 104-108g range leads to a head weight progression of about 6.3g per club (17g/inch). 

 

I am considering using 11mm increments on the next build using constant weight shafts. In theory, that would give MOI matches with 7g per head changes from club to club. I have a set of Miura CB-501 heads waiting to be assembled, so the head weight tolerances are very tight. 

 

For the AWT2.0 shafts I used 10mm (slightly more than 3/8") length increments. The shaft weight slope was increasing about 2g per club, heads increasing by 6.4g per club and the total club weights by 8.4g/club or about 21g/inch. The longer irons just felt very light compared to the shorter irons. 

 

For the AMT shafts, are most MOI builds using a 0.5" length increment? 

I can’t speak for others, but I’ve only used 1/2 increments. That’s been with AMT White  R300s and just did 2 sets of White S300s recently. 

[geochitown]

I think Recoil Proto 125's are slightly ascending weight as well.

[HSTNGolfer]

3 hours ago, geochitown said:

I think Recoil Proto 125's are slightly ascending weight as well.

The standard Recoil 95 and Recoil 110 are also slightly ascending weight. Recoil 95 increases from 90g in the 2i to 96 in the 9i, 110 ranges from 105g to 111g (in F4 flex).

[BREWMASTER95060]

bought these new
 

i have 22-46 PTx  KBS tour 90 S

the 30-46 are swing weight matched and moi matched

lead tape added to shafts @ 14”just under the grip
shaft length 38-36" 1/2 inch per club

30

34 + 5 grams

38 + 10 grams

42 + 15 grams

46 + 20 grams

Edited February 24, 2021 by BREWMASTER95060

[Curious]

@BREWMASTER95060

While I admire your creativity👍 I have a couple questions regarding what you posted above and elsewhere. 

Any particular reason why you choose 14 inches below the grip?

Why 5 gram increments vs let's say 3 grams?

Is it your goal to manipulate the balance points in a certain way?

There is a guy on youtube who backweighs clubs with lead tape directly under the grip and he posted a formula but I can't make sense out of it. Would you care to elaborate.

Thank you

. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjyAKoDu7zM

 

 

Quote

 

Driver = 7 1/2 in.

3wd = 7 in.

5wd = 6 1/2 in.

3 iron = 3 1/2 in.

4 iron = 4 in.

5 iron = 4 1/2 in.

6 iron = 5 in.

7 = 5 1/2 in

8 = 6 in.

9 = 6 1/2 in.

PW = 7 in.

SW = 7 1/2 in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BREWMASTER95060]

"Driver = 7 1/2 in.

3wd = 7 in.

5wd = 6 1/2 in.

3 iron = 3 1/2 in.

4 iron = 4 in.

5 iron = 4 1/2 in.

6 iron = 5 in.

7 = 5 1/2 in

8 = 6 in.

9 = 6 1/2 in.

PW = 7 in.

SW = 7 1/2 in."

I watched that many times myself. no idea. The details are left out so not even a guess.


 

 

[Pmookie]

Way too much to think about... I didn’t like the AMT that I’ve tried in fittings, so I’ve never used them. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Pmookie

[BREWMASTER95060]

Why 5 gram increments vs let's say 3 grams?
short answer:
The math works.
grip = bp^2*((1/3)*grams)
shaft =bp^2*((1/3)*grams)
head = (head sweet spot)^2*grams
moi= grip+head+head

29-27.5=1.5
1.5/4= 0.375 balance point NOT .25 or less 
head/club grams
255/410=.6219512195121951
283/458=.6179039301310044
long answer starts here:
https://3jack.blogspot.com/2013/02/moi-balance-index-lengthy-introduction.html
https://3jack.blogspot.com/search?q=moi+index

Edited February 25, 2021 by BREWMASTER95060

[BREWMASTER95060]

"Any particular reason why you choose 14 inches below the grip?"
do not want to screw up swing weight.

[BREWMASTER95060]

"Is it your goal to manipulate the balance points in a certain way?"
yes

[me05501]

Tri Golds came standard in the Tommy Armour V31’s if I recall correctly. Kind of a match made in Heaven, as each head in the set was also specifically designed for that loft. 

[Seattlegolfnut]

Snowed in Seattle...and a little sleepless (restless, too) right now. 🙂

 

A while back I got some KBS Tour shafts with idea of making an ascending weight iron set. I'm feeling bug to try this out now.

 

With the necessary head weighting and grips, what I came up with on paper should give me an MOI and MBI matched set at my preferred numbers; and should be a pretty tight SW progression as @Noodler mentioned in his posts in this thread. I didn't include all that info below, just the relevant shaft info.

Primary Goals:

1) progressively heavier shafts (2-3g) for MOI/MBI matching

2) progressively stiffer shafts for more control w/ scoring clubs

 

My gamers today are $-taper HTs. Some more spin from the KBS Tours is desirable. But I'll freely admit I wanted to try this with the Tours and not $-tapers since the Tours were half the cost.

 

I'm considering the tip trim to create a small slope in the taper tip length (~3/16" 6 - P; 1/8" P -A). I could use some help understanding if that's desirable but seems like it would be since typical constant weight sets have a 1/2" sloped tip section. Also not sure how it would affect the estimated FCM. I don't have the gadgets to measure it.

 

Really curious to hear thoughts / feedback on how this might play out before I cut and glue things up.

 

Edit: Total weight range: 5 iron about 415g and the A wedge about 470g. The head weights with various amounts of tip weights and lead tape would be about 5.5g separation between 5 - P, and 8 grams between P and A.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Seattlegolfnut