What part of the swing is natural?

[chipa]

I believe Ben Hogan said a good swing went against intuition. Nonetheless at least during his downswing there didn't appear he was manipulating a whole lot but who knows. On the other hand some teachers out there claim the golf swing is more or less natural with a couple of simple points to master. Then we have some teachers that tell us the club must be manipulated throughout the swing.

 

My personal observation is more or less what I believe was Hogan's perspective - that the golf swing setup and takeaway are not natural moves, ie manipulated, but that the downswing is mostly a pure natural movement, maybe with some minor exceptions with the hands depending on the type of shot.

 

 

[scooterhd2]

if the ball were on a really tall tee about waist high, and the clubface was held in your hands, the golf swing would be a very simply motion. absolute intuition. evolutionary instinct. same as throwing a rock or throwing or a small stick at some game. we dont think about pivot and release and backswing with those motions. i dont think i've heard many critiques of someone's back swing in ping pong.

 

the problem is that darn shaft, and that club head 44 inches from the hands. now our brain has to figure out how to get that mass at maximum speed before impacting an object, and of course with some control in direction. that's where hogans words ring true. controlling our hands is absolutely second nature to us. but the clubhead and clubface are rarely in alignment with our hands. you have a shaft pointing straight up, or even back towards the target when your hands are still out in front of you during the backswing, and making that all lineup at impact is difficult, especially if you cant feel where the clubhead is.

 

 

[MaineMariner]

I've thought about this question a lot. I grew up playing hockey. Hockey, hockey, and more hockey. And some baseball, but mostly hockey. 

 

I have video from my first ever lesson a few years back. I had golfed for a while but never really took the time to learn how to swing a club. At that time, I had no real clue how to swing a golf club and absolutely no preconceived notions about how I was supposed to swing a golf club. I couldn't tell you what "lag" was or a one piece takeaway or weight shift or what differentiates Jim Furyk's swing from from Adam Scott's or, well, anything. I only knew that you were supposed to hit the ball in the general direction of the hole. If I had to guess, my swing was heavily influenced by hockey and baseball, because those were the stick and ball games I was very familiar with.

 

I look back at my old swing and can't help but laugh at the idea of a "natural" swing. If you want to see a natural, unmanipulated golf swing, that's what I had, and it was not pretty. I can't abide by an instructor who claims that all you have to do is let yourself get out of the way and the golf swing happen. I let intuition lead the way a few years ago and it lead to a massive inside takeaway and massive overdraw. I did hit the ball a mile, and the draw curve would elicit some nice "ooo's" from my playing partners, but it was not a controllable golf swing.

 

Three years after my first lesson and my swing now is chock full of manipulations. The motion is most definitely not one that comes to me naturally when my objective is to hit a stationary object in a forward direction. However, I'm scoring 15-20 strokes better than I was with my natural hockey swing, and I'm not losing 3-5 balls a round, so I'm pretty pleased with this direction.

Edited August 31, 2020 by MaineMariner

[ThinkingPlus]

The club toss into a nearby pond immediately following the ball you chunked in is an extremely instinctive, natural move.  As for the golf swing, none of it is natural.

[naval2006]

There’s this section from 9 o’clock to 3 that can’t be manipulated much. Good players are naturally solid here, and they look similar in general. Some part of the grip can’t be changed much either. And balance: when it’s natural you’re on your way to above average ballstriking. 

Edited September 1, 2020 by naval2006

[Soloman1]

There are patterns in golf. People have natural tendancies toward a pattern. Effective patterns are those where grip, pivot axis, release type and some other things match up efficiently. If they don't match, you're going to struggle. If you're not using a pattern suited to your natural motions, you're going to struggle.

[N0rs3man]

Idk i consider throwing something natural... and I consider a throwing golf swing the only way to go

[Lefthook]

The golf swing is taught motion. Doesn't come by itself. But it doesn't mean that you have to manipulate.

 

@N0rs3man, plenty of people doesn't have an efficient throw. 

[N0rs3man]

5 hours ago, Lefthook said:

The golf swing is taught motion. Doesn't come by itself. But it doesn't mean that you have to manipulate.

 

@N0rs3man, plenty of people doesn't have an efficient throw. 

Yeah some ppl struggle, but the motion is natural like walking. Babies need to learn so they can move. Ppl throw things to hunt. Accelerating an object to maximum speed is something humans are great at once learned.

Edited September 1, 2020 by N0rs3man

[juststeve]

If permitted to be so the reaction of the body to the swinging of the club is quite natural.

 

Steve

[chippa13]

If it isn't natural then it will either lead to injury or an inability to do it consistently.

[chipa]

21 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

If it isn't natural then it will either lead to injury or an inability to do it consistently.

 

Ben Hogan said the swing wasn't natural(at least the setup and takeaway) I think he was hitting balls straight and long into his 80's.

[garyt]

20 hours ago, N0rs3man said:

Idk i consider throwing something natural... and I consider a throwing golf swing the only way to go

I don't think throwing is natural. Sure anybody can do it immediately, but very few are doing it efficiently and in a way that won't hurt them over time. Just watch the people throwing out the first pitch at a baseball game. If it were natural they'd get it near homeplate.

[garyt]

5 hours ago, juststeve said:

If permitted to be so the reaction of the body to the swinging of the club is quite natural.

 

Steve

I disagree. And I know you're coming at this from a MDLT perspective. But if Manuel didn't first explain that the swing is a circular motion and tell people the basics of the swing to swing the hands over the shoulder and arms back to the target the total newbie would likely swing OTT at the ball. THAT is actually the natural reaction for a total newbie who hasn't read anything about golf to swing . Take the shortest [possible route to the ball, and that's OTT. Nothing natural about a golf swing, imo.

[naval2006]

21 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

There are patterns in golf. People have natural tendancies toward a pattern. Effective patterns are those where grip, pivot axis, release type and some other things match up efficiently. If they don't match, you're going to struggle. If you're not using a pattern suited to your natural motions, you're going to struggle.

 

You put into words what I’ve always thought after so many years of playing the game. Why some people take up the game so quickly and so easily but most golfers never will?  I’ve seen very good players who got it through hard work but they are a minority and don’t have a long shelf life (that’s a bit me) and then you have this guy that whatever motion they are taught simply acquire it and repeat it over and over.  

 

In the Rory episode of Feherty you can see the little kid swinging and you see him now and there’s exactly the same DNA with a refined motion.

 

And longevity is the trademark of players who naturally pick up a decent swing. My buddies who I grew up playing the game with are my weekly reference. We have a similar level but they still swing so beautifully.  One is in his mid 40s and the other one is mid 50s. Awesome ballstrikers.  

[johnrobison]

1 hour ago, garyt said:

I don't think throwing is natural. Sure anybody can do it immediately, but very few are doing it efficiently and in a way that won't hurt them over time. Just watch the people throwing out the first pitch at a baseball game. If it were natural they'd get it near homeplate.

Agreed. Most people throw about as well as most people swing a golf club. 

[DShepley]

Get your hands on a copy of George Knudson's book 'The Natural Golf Swing', his approach is beautiful in it's simplicity and I often revisit it when my mind gets cluttered with mechanics.  It's a shame he died young as I bet he was a wonderful teacher.  Here is a great video he made to explain his concepts, (it's production value is somewhat dated but "It's GOLD JERRY!"

 

[Millbrook]

On 9/1/2020 at 3:19 AM, Soloman1 said:

There are patterns in golf. People have natural tendancies toward a pattern. Effective patterns are those where grip, pivot axis, release type and some other things match up efficiently. If they don't match, you're going to struggle. If you're not using a pattern suited to your natural motions, you're going to struggle.

 

The most insightful comment in my time here.

[juststeve]

16 hours ago, garyt said:

I disagree. And I know you're coming at this from a MDLT perspective. But if Manuel didn't first explain that the swing is a circular motion and tell people the basics of the swing to swing the hands over the shoulder and arms back to the target the total newbie would likely swing OTT at the ball. THAT is actually the natural reaction for a total newbie who hasn't read anything about golf to swing . Take the shortest [possible route to the ball, and that's OTT. Nothing natural about a golf swing, imo.

I beg to differ.  No matter how you swing the club the body will respond to the motion of the club.  If you have swung the club incorrectly, over the top for example, the shot may turn out poorly but the body will nevertheless respond.  If you want to hit good shots focus on how the club moves nd permit your body to respond as it naturally will.  Trying to manage the movement of the body is an unnecessary complication.

 

Steve

[jons1]

The brutal truth that doesn't sell books, videos, lessons, or training aids so it's rarely said... You've either got amazing eye-hand coordination, or you don't.  Period.

 

Sure, with enough practice you can go from beginner to bogey golf, but you're destiny was determined before you ever picked up the club.  For some, you were going to be on the level of a tour player, or the local club champion, or the league B flight, or the resident hacker... no matter how many lessons, how much practice, and how much investment in materials.  

 

There are endless excuses why some guy can't make it through Q-School, or win the club championship, or break 80, or even break 100.  The ego says, well, it's because I just don't practice or play enough... but honestly, in most cases they just don't have it.  Sure, work ethic plays a role, but work ethic applied to actual athletic talent gets you great results.  That doesn't mean you can't enjoy working on the game, playing the game, getting better in certain aspects, etc.  It about the journey and the pursuit, not the outcome.

 

So is the swing natural... yes, for people that are natural athletes.  For the rest of us hackers, to paraphrase tin cup, it's an unfolding lawn chair.

 

[chipa]

29 minutes ago, golfpros1 said:

The brutal truth that doesn't sell books, videos, lessons, or training aids so it's rarely said... You've either got amazing eye-hand coordination, or you don't.  Period.

 

Sure, with enough practice you can go from beginner to bogey golf, but you're destiny was determined before you ever picked up the club.  For some, you were going to be on the level of a tour player, or the local club champion, or the league B flight, or the resident hacker... no matter how many lessons, how much practice, and how much investment in materials.  

 

There are endless excuses why some guy can't make it through Q-School, or win the club championship, or break 80, or even break 100.  The ego says, well, it's because I just don't practice or play enough... but honestly, in most cases they just don't have it.  Sure, work ethic plays a role, but work ethic applied to actual athletic talent gets you great results.  That doesn't mean you can't enjoy working on the game, playing the game, getting better in certain aspects, etc.  It about the journey and the pursuit, not the outcome.

 

So is the swing natural... yes, for people that are natural athletes.  For the rest of us hackers, to paraphrase tin cup, it's an unfolding lawn chair.

 

 

If I'm not mistaken other than Norman no other golfer who started as an adult (17) ever made it to the PGA so it's more than just genetics.

 

Also, based on other sports such as baseball we know the limits of a human in terms of hand eye coordination and that alone cannot explain how pros can hit the ball so far and so precise at levels of consistency that are way above their peers. IMO opinion as an adult golfer who has streaks of hitting the ball very well its because the there is a connection made between the hands and arms and the rest of the body that enables the swing to be easily constrained which in effect means timing is of much less relevance than the average golfer and that these connections must happen as a child for the most part because their brains aren't as developed. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by chipa

[Pepperturbo]

I agree with @golfpros1 comment regarding the importance of hand-eye coordination.  However, if you don't have it, all that means is you'll have to focus and deal with swing mechanic issues as opposed to someone like me that is guided by hand-eye coordination. 

 

When I took up golf basically I grabbed a club look at my target and then hit the ball at the target.  Very similar to how I still quickly draw my holstered weapon, point-n-shoot.  As a shooter I naturally visualized distance measurement allowed for windage and shot to 600 meters; however for greater distance I needed assistance.  When learning golf I never thought about the proper mechanics.  That's not to say the 3-books I used to learn golf didn't guide me.  It's to say, "natural instinct" and ability accelerates the learning process by eliminating some steps. 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Pepperturbo

[naval2006]

51 minutes ago, chipa said:

 

If I'm not mistaken other than Norman no other golfer who started as an adult (17) ever made it to the PGA so it's more than just genetics.

 

Also, based on other sports such as baseball we know the limits of a human in terms of hand eye coordination and that alone cannot explain how pros can hit the ball so far and so precise at levels of consistency that are way above their peers. IMO opinion as an adult golfer who has streaks of hitting the ball very well its because the there is a connection made between the hands and arms and the rest of the body that enables the swing to be easily constrained which in effect means timing is of much less relevance than the average golfer and that these connections must happen as a child for the most part because their brains aren't as developed. 

There's a path for the club in golf and the gifted guys will move the body instinctively to keep the club down that path.  There may be lots of variations, from Rory to Furyk and Lee Trevino, but it's always a repetitive and athletic motion.  And definitely these guys need way less timing than the average to hit the ball very well.  But the path is the key.  

 

There are two kids at my course, they're 11 and they just swing like they've done it all their life.  They'll be scratch golfers by the time the are 15 or 16, now one of them is a golf genius.  He's got something you can't put into words.  

 

 

[Krt22]

There is nothing natural about it

[Noodler]

21 hours ago, garyt said:

I disagree. And I know you're coming at this from a MDLT perspective. But if Manuel didn't first explain that the swing is a circular motion and tell people the basics of the swing to swing the hands over the shoulder and arms back to the target the total newbie would likely swing OTT at the ball. THAT is actually the natural reaction for a total newbie who hasn't read anything about golf to swing . Take the shortest [possible route to the ball, and that's OTT. Nothing natural about a golf swing, imo.

 

You should differentiate between what happens when a golfer is just swinging a club vs. when they're trying to hit the ball.  I saw this when teaching my kids, watching friends, and with my own swing.  Just swinging a club without a ball present is quite natural.  The body responds as needed when not having to worry about making contact with the ball.  Things get "unnatural" when the ball is back in the equation and the golfer doesn't understand how to bring their own natural golf swing to the task of making contact with the ball correctly.  That's when things break down. 

 

So swinging a club is natural.  Hitting a golf ball with an ill-devised instrument for the task is not. ?

Edited September 2, 2020 by Noodler

[jons1]

2 hours ago, chipa said:

 

If I'm not mistaken other than Norman no other golfer who started as an adult (17) ever made it to the PGA so it's more than just genetics.

 

Also, based on other sports such as baseball we know the limits of a human in terms of hand eye coordination and that alone cannot explain how pros can hit the ball so far and so precise at levels of consistency that are way above their peers. IMO opinion as an adult golfer who has streaks of hitting the ball very well its because the there is a connection made between the hands and arms and the rest of the body that enables the swing to be easily constrained which in effect means timing is of much less relevance than the average golfer and that these connections must happen as a child for the most part because their brains aren't as developed. 

 

At some point, no matter how naturally talented you are, you need to get a job, not to mention you've missed out on years of competitive golf to hone the craft of scoring.  But without the natural talent in the first place, you've got no shot.

 

[Barfolomew]

There are lots of natural parts to a golf swing...

 

Think about the top of the back swing... the back swing slows down and pauses and starts back down at a very natural rate like riding a park swing then I add the power needed after the initial downswing happens on its own.... working with gravity.

 

The speed of the swing is natural.... when you manipulate it too much it is less repeatable

 

Getting out of the way is key and allowing what you naturally do to come thru as long as effective and safe... one reason I use a stronger grip is cause it feels natural even tho I used neutral cause that was the teaching when I learned

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Barfolomew

[ThinkingPlus]

6 hours ago, chipa said:

 

If I'm not mistaken other than Norman no other golfer who started as an adult (17) ever made it to the PGA so it's more than just genetics.

 

Also, based on other sports such as baseball we know the limits of a human in terms of hand eye coordination and that alone cannot explain how pros can hit the ball so far and so precise at levels of consistency that are way above their peers. IMO opinion as an adult golfer who has streaks of hitting the ball very well its because the there is a connection made between the hands and arms and the rest of the body that enables the swing to be easily constrained which in effect means timing is of much less relevance than the average golfer and that these connections must happen as a child for the most part because their brains aren't as developed. 

Larry Nelson

[Hawkeye77]

6 hours ago, chipa said:

 

If I'm not mistaken other than Norman no other golfer who started as an adult (17) ever made it to the PGA so it's more than just genetics.

 

 

 

Norman started at 16 and wasn't an adult, so yes, mistaken in that and also re Larry Nelson - see above.  

 

Calvin Peete - 23.  Y.E. Yang - 19.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Hawkeye77

[Zitlow]

Throwing the club head CW from the top in a circle around the base of the neck and a semi-circle around the hands as the pivot is supporting and getting out of the way. His right side was following the club head into the ball. Throwing the club head is pretty natural but the pivot and how and when to go from supination of the right forearm to pronation of the right forearm to snap the face square and allow the club head to complete the circle into the finish has to be trained. 

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by Zitlow