Cap question

[Golf_Goof]

I play with a guy in our league who is a - 1.24 handi (adds a stroke over 18). 

 

What should he get for 9 holes on the same course? 

Seems that we should double his number for 9 but he disagrees. I somewhat new to managing caps and obviously math challenged  - lol.

[jvincent]

Your course probably has ratings for each of the nines. Just take the rating/slope for the 9 holes you are playing, punch the numbers into the course handicap calculator, and you'll have your answer.

 

Unless one nine is much more difficult than the other his course handicap should be about half of his 18 hole one subject to rounding of course.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Golf_Goof said:

I play with a guy in our league who is a - 1.24 handi (adds a stroke over 18). 

 

What should he get for 9 holes on the same course? 

Seems that we should double his number for 9 but he disagrees. I somewhat new to managing caps and obviously math challenged  - lol.

From the Rules of Handicapping (USGA Version), Section 6.1:

Quote

6.1b For a 9-hole Round

A 9-hole Course Handicap is calculated as follows:

Course Handicap

=

(Handicap Index ÷ 2)

x

(9-hole Slope Rating ÷ 113)

+

(9-hole Course Rating – 9-hole par)

You should be able to do a Handicap Calculation through GHIN (if you use it) and have it done automatically.

[Golf_Goof]

26 minutes ago, jvincent said:

Your course probably has ratings for each of the nines. Just take the rating/slope for the 9 holes you are playing, punch the numbers into the course handicap calculator, and you'll have your answer.

 

Unless one nine is much more difficult than the other his course handicap should be about half of his 18 hole one subject to rounding of course.

No separate rating for the front 9 but 1/2 the 18 hole rating is fine.  Front is slightly easier. 

The first calculator I tried won't accept a negative value? 

Halving an 18 hole number makes sense when it's a positive number. 

[rogolf]

As a general guideline, all handicap "adjustments" (such as for different forms of play), move the player's handicap closer to zero.  This also applies to plus handicaps.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Golf_Goof said:

No separate rating for the front 9 but 1/2 the 18 hole rating is fine.  Front is slightly easier. 

The first calculator I tried won't accept a negative value? 

Halving an 18 hole number makes sense when it's a positive number. 

The magnitude of the Course Handicap is the same, whether he's a "regular" handicapper (handicap is subtracted from score) or a "plus" (handicap is added to score).  I did have a question, you say he's a -1.24 HI.  Usually Handicap Index is reported to the 0.1 digit, not the 0.01.  My question, how did you determine he's a -1.24?

[SNIPERBBB]

This is easier if we know the format and with playing off the low guy .

 

[Golf_Goof]

42 minutes ago, davep043 said:

The magnitude of the Course Handicap is the same, whether he's a "regular" handicapper (handicap is subtracted from score) or a "plus" (handicap is added to score).  I did have a question, you say he's a -1.24 HI.  Usually Handicap Index is reported to the 0.1 digit, not the 0.01.  My question, how did you determine he's a -1.24?

I use MyCloudLeague utility for keeping caps. This is what it spits out for this player (not current). All the rest of us are shown without a negative symbol cuz we're not scratch. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Golf_Goof

[Golf_Goof]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

As a general guideline, all handicap "adjustments" (such as for different forms of play), move the player's handicap closer to zero.  This also applies to plus handicaps.

Seems moving a + closer to zero gives him the advantage i.e. he wouldn't have to add a stroke for a 9 hole game. 

[Golf_Goof]

26 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

This is easier if we know the format and with playing off the low guy .

 

Format is 9 hole stroke play.

[davep043]

7 minutes ago, Golf_Goof said:

I use MyCloudLeague utility for keeping caps. This is what it spits out for this player (not current). All the rest of us are shown without a negative symbol cuz we're not scratch. 

Looking at the website, its not intended to be a WHS-compliant calculation, but something proprietary.  Even so, the software shows you a 9-hole handicap.  From what you showed, he'd get 1 stroke added for 9 holes (-0.66) and 1 stroke for 18 holes (-1.06).  It looks as if the system DOES take different ratings for each 9 into effect, but I can't really tell looking at just the one screen shot.  Perhaps it would be appropriate to send a question to the MyCloudLeague folks and ask them.  

4 minutes ago, Golf_Goof said:

Seems moving a + closer to zero gives him the advantage i.e. he wouldn't have to add a stroke for a 9 hole game. 

Any time a handicap is "reduced", it moves closer to zero.  The effect is to move players handicaps closer to one another.  But because the "units" on the course are full strokes, sometimes the act of rounding a handicap to full strokes works out in the favor of one player rather than another.

[Bushwood Country Club]

3 hours ago, rogolf said:

As a general guideline, all handicap "adjustments" (such as for different forms of play), move the player's handicap closer to zero.  This also applies to plus handicaps.

This isn't correct.  The "movement" is determined by the slope, course rating, and par. Use the GHIN app for someone who is a +2.5, on a course rated at 71.9/139/72 and their Course Handicap is +3.  

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Bushwood Country Club said:

This isn't correct.  The "movement" is determined by the slope, course rating, and par. Use the GHIN app for someone who is a +2.5, on a course rated at 71.9/139/72 and their Course Handicap is +3.  

Judging by the context, (when he mentions different forms of play) I'm pretty sure that @rogolf was talking about Handicap Allowances, with are always less than or equal to 100%, and always move a Playing Handicap closer to zero.  This is made clear in Appendix C.  Calculation of the Course Handicap isn't what I'd term an "adjustment".

[Bushwood Country Club]

6 hours ago, Golf_Goof said:

Seems moving a + closer to zero gives him the advantage i.e. he wouldn't have to add a stroke for a 9 hole game. 

A plus does not move closer to zero unless the calculation (combo of slope, course rating, and par) dictates.  

 

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

Judging by the context, (when he mentions different forms of play) I'm pretty sure that @rogolf was talking about Handicap Allowances, with are always less than or equal to 100%, and always move a Playing Handicap closer to zero.  This is made clear in Appendix C.  Calculation of the Course Handicap isn't what I'd term an "adjustment".

Given the context of the OP, its clear to me he is referring to the course handicap adjustment.  What other type adjustment would he be referring to when he says "moving a + closer to zero gives him the advantage i.e. he wouldn't have to add a stroke for a 9 hole game".  

[davep043]

42 minutes ago, Bushwood Country Club said:

A plus does not move closer to zero unless the calculation (combo of slope, course rating, and par) dictates.  

 

Given the context of the OP, its clear to me he is referring to the course handicap adjustment.  What other type adjustment would he be referring to when he says "moving a + closer to zero gives him the advantage i.e. he wouldn't have to add a stroke for a 9 hole game".  

We are talking at cross-purposes, about a handicap system which is NOT compliant with either the old USGA or the newer WHS system.  I don't know how that system calculates Course Handicap from Handicap Index, or how it calculates the Index.  @rogolf said:

8 hours ago, rogolf said:

As a general guideline, all handicap "adjustments" (such as for different forms of play), move the player's handicap closer to zero.  This also applies to plus handicaps.

He specifically talks about different forms of play, and the ONLY adjustment that varies based on format or play is the Handicap Allowances, but that is only in of the recognized systems.  At the time he posted that, we hadn't heard that the OP was looking at a proprietary handicap system.  But I will stand by my opinion, that calculation of a Course Handicap isn't an "adjustment" of any kind, its simply the way to get the basic handicap to use when playing, using slope, CR, HI, and par.  

What does seem clear to me is that the OP was wrong when he initially suggested that a player who has one stroke added to his 18-hole score should have TWO strokes added when he only plays 9.  And depending on his Handicap Index and the ratings of the 9-holes he plays, he may indeed not have to add any strokes at all.

[Bushwood Country Club]

Agree 100% with the math. 

[nsxguy]

10 hours ago, Golf_Goof said:

No separate rating for the front 9 but 1/2 the 18 hole rating is fine.  Front is slightly easier. 

The first calculator I tried won't accept a negative value? 

Halving an 18 hole number makes sense when it's a positive number. 

 

I assume/think you misspoke in your original post by saying you think  you should DOUBLE his handicap for HALF the holes.

 

Halving an 18 hole number ALSO makes sense when it's a negative number.

 

A "6" 'cap gets only half for 9 holes, right ? So he GETS, or deducts 3 strokes, half of 6, from his GROSS to arrive at his NET, yes ?

 

Now take a "-6", (actually called a "plus" handicap). He GIVES, or ADDS 3 strokes, half of 6, TO his GROSS to arrive at his NET, no ?

 

 

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, Golf_Goof said:

Seems moving a + closer to zero gives him the advantage i.e. he wouldn't have to add a stroke for a 9 hole game. 

 

-1.2 would round to 1 stroke for 18 holes.

 

Half of -1.2 is -.6. Oddly(?) enough it would also round to 1 for a 9 hole round. So in this case he'd be the same for 9 or 18.

 

"Course Handicap" and "Handicap Allowance" are 2 different things. Course handicap is the calculation we're ALL pretty familiar with. Dave gave it, albeit it for 9 holes, in his first post.

 

Handicap Allowance is a percentage of Course Handicap to arrive at a "Playing Handicap" for a particular competition.

e.g. If your course handicap is 14 and the handicap allowance is 95% your playing handicap for the comp would be 13. 14X.95=13.3 which rounded is 13. So for that round you'd get 13 strokes.

 

Here's a link to the USGA recommended Handicap Allowances

 

I should say though, in actual practice I've personally never seen a handicap allowance done for a straight up singles stroke play event.

[nsxguy]

50 minutes ago, Bushwood Country Club said:

Agree 100% with the math. 

 

Buuuuuuut ?

 

I guess by now you've seen the difference between Course Handicap, which I believe you were referring to and "Handicap Allowance" for different competitions that rogolf was referring to, and dave was expanding on, yes ?

[Bushwood Country Club]

But it’s crystal clear the OP was referring to the Course Handicap.  You are now wanting to interchange “adjustment” with “allowance”.  
 

Go ask a hundred people to interpret the OP, 95 will interpret it to be the Course Handicap.  Nobody is referring to the “90% of handicap” in this context. 
 

nice try piling on,tho...

[rogolf]

The OP suggests that his + handicap should be doubled for nine holes.  Where does that come from when every handicap should be reduced for nine holes, ie, going closer to zero.

[Bushwood Country Club]

I believe the average person would interpret the OPs comment to mean he was trying to determine how to establish the Course Handicap in a competitive event.  We can debate that all day, since it's a matter of opinion.  I believe we all agree that doubling the GHIN is incorrect, when in fact it should be halved.

 

Making the "adjustment" you refer to (80% of GHIN, 90% of GHIN, etc.) is so straightforward that it requires little, if any, explanation.  Those "adjustments" are spelled out clearly in the tournament guidelines in my experience.  

[nsxguy]

11 hours ago, Bushwood Country Club said:

But it’s crystal clear the OP was referring to the Course Handicap.  You are now wanting to interchange “adjustment” with “allowance”.  
 

Go ask a hundred people to interpret the OP, 95 will interpret it to be the Course Handicap.  Nobody is referring to the “90% of handicap” in this context. 
 

nice try piling on,tho...

 

No need to get your back up. There's no "piling on".

 

Yes, it IS crystal clear what the OP was going for. But that's not what you quoted or replied to. But nobody is referring to the 90% ? Then why did you quote THAT post, which was specifically referring to the handicap adjustment ?

 

While you are correct at what the OP was going for, what you quoted and then replied to is below.

 

On 9/2/2020 at 9:49 AM, rogolf said:

As a general guideline, all handicap "adjustments" (such as for different forms of play), move the player's handicap closer to zero.  This also applies to plus handicaps.

 

22 hours ago, Bushwood Country Club said:

This isn't correct.  The "movement" is determined by the slope, course rating, and par. Use the GHIN app for someone who is a +2.5, on a course rated at 71.9/139/72 and their Course Handicap is +3.  

 

rogolf brought in adjustments, even put the word in quotes and followed with "such as different forms of play". You followed with your post telling him he was wrong. He wasn't wrong, you misinterpreted what he was talking about.

 

No biggie. Everybody makes mistake.

[Bushwood Country Club]

23 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

No need to get your back up. There's no "piling on".

 

Yes, it IS crystal clear what the OP was going for. But that's not what you quoted or replied to. But nobody is referring to the 90% ? Then why did you quote THAT post, which was specifically referring to the handicap adjustment ?

 

While you are correct at what the OP was going for, what you quoted and then replied to is below.

 

 

 

rogolf brought in adjustments, even put the word in quotes and followed with "such as different forms of play". You followed with your post telling him he was wrong. He wasn't wrong, you misinterpreted what he was talking about.

 

No biggie. Everybody makes mistake.

Feel better now?   

[naval2006]

For 9 holes you applied the “course handicap” divided into 2 formula. Since the course handicap is always a full figure there may be a half shot for a niner.