Game Improvement Irons vs. Player's Irons

[driveandputtmachine]

11 minutes ago, Hogan9 said:

I think another factor for those of us that are older and have been playing for a long time, is how the clubs looks. I'm 70 and grew up playing blades because there were no GI irons. While we know GI irons are more forgiving, we're just not comfortable with how they look. I like my Mizuno JPX 850s because they look like blades when sitting behind the ball. That gives me confidence.

 

As they say in Star Wars only a sith deals in absolutes.  There is no absolute rule for anyone in what will make them play better or how a club will perform for them.  P790's have less spin than P7MC.  That is absolute, no matter who hits them this will not change. because of physics or engineering or whatever you want to call it.  Saying every golfer would be better playing SGI's is silly.  Saying SGI's make players worse because they can make bad swings and they should play blades to struggle to hit it better is silly.  I as a current 3, and as low as a +2.3 in the last three years, cannot hit a long bladed iron to save my life.  I know the long bladed iron is more forgiving to toe strikes.  The issue for me is the longer the toe, the farther on the toe I will hit the ball.  For someone else the longer bladed iron may work wonders for their game.  I spin the ball borderline too much and launch it on the low side.  Therefore the P790's and their ilk of irons with less spin and higher launch work great for me.  Those who launch it high with borderline too little spin, not so much, unless they can manage the misses.  Some players manage their misses with a set of irons without knowing it.  It doesn't make one set fits all for irons.  

 

I am not great, I do not play on tour, I am a local golfer like many of you.  I do know that SGI or GI do not make your good shots any better, or worse, or have a bigger range, that is an absolute.

 

SPIN and managing your average window it is the king with irons, because the goal is to hit it closer to the hole.  The goal is not to hit a 7 iron that launches 16 and spins 7k  with a 50* land.  The goal is not to hit a 7 iron that launches 20 and spins 5k and a 55* land, or that launches 13 and spins 9k and a 45* land. It is not to hit a 7 iron 200 yards, it is not to hit s 7 iron 140 yards, or to hit a 7 iron 170 yards.   Those may be where you are trying to get to hit your goal, but the goal is to hit the ball closer to the hole on average than you currently do with your irons.  Whatever you need to hit that goal is what you should be playing.  Whether it is P790, G410, P7MB, T100, 765, Apex, Mavrik, with Nippon 105/130, KBS C taper or Tour-V, or Recoil, or Steelfiber, or DG.  It doesn't matter.   

 

Where do the pro's eat our lunches?  Sure the men and some of the women, they hit it farther than most of us, but where they really destroy us is their proximity to the hole/GIR/SG approach.  The top 50 on PGA tour average 80% GIR from the fairway, 69% from other than the fairway.  I would bet money there are no members on this board than are anywhere close to those numbers.  Almost 15 out of 18 from the fairway, and almost 13 out of 18 from not the fairway?  Top 125 75% from the fairway and 53% from not the fairway.  As a +2.3 I averaged 13.6 GIR per round.  An average golfer, hits what 5 GIR per round? Average golfer as in a 18 handicap.

[kozubs]

Not sure if it was noted in here but feel is a huge factor in my mind.  Way back I had a set of 2006 big berthas.  I then got fit for a set of MP53's around 2010-2011.  These are somewhat players irons but cavity back with a lot of forgiveness.  That first year my game suffered but I quickly improved as began to feel the ball more and started to develop a better swing as the clubs forced me to swing better.  A few years ago I found a set of MP63's that were in nearly new condition (The 3 iron looked like it was never touched) and I am now gaming these.  Still not blades but much less forgiving than the MP53's.  My game has improved again since getting these.  I was at an indoor fitter last year.  The projector was down so I couldn't see the ball flight.  I was hitting well that day but on a few shots I called out "high toe, low toe, low heel etc."  The fitter started laughing.  He showed me my strike pattern.  He said I called it right every time but when looking at the pattern, the ball was only off about 0.5cm.  You don't get that feel with GI's or SGI's so it's hard to tell what your doing.  "Players" irons will provide more feedback but you loose that feel with GI's.   If you want to improve your swing, I feel GI's are a detriment.   If you just want to go out and have fun and don't care too much about improving that GI's are the way to go IMO.I also prefer a miss that's short.  My home course is deadly if you miss long left or right on almost every hole but are perfectly fine if short and my MP63's are great for that.  

 

My wife just got a set of P790's.  I tried them on the range.  Seemed like everything was straight with no movement and about 20 yards long but I had no idea where I was hitting it.  It didn't take too long before I started swinging harder because it was fun to hit a club that far but then things started going sideways.  Went back to my 63's and my tempo slowed down and I started hitting better again.  

Edited September 15, 2020 by kozubs

[cn34]

I'm a 10, I've always been more comfortable with a GI iron. Offset with a thicker top line generally works better for me. Biggest gain I've found is getting fitted. During my most recent fit, fitter had me hit some players irons based on my swing but the numbers I got weren't much better and I felt more confident with the GI irons. Not saying what's true for me is true for everyone and that a certain handicap should play a certain style. What I am saying is swinging with confidence goes a long way to producing a good swing which will more often than not produce good shots. 

 

Other big factor is feel, and that is completely subjective, but again goes into what you feel confident in. The feel on a good shot across any type of club should be very good. The big difference to me on GI vs players is in the mis-hits, some of which has to do with forgiveness. I like knowing I have the forgiveness and gravitate towards the Ping G series, Callaway Mavrik, Taylormade SIM, etc.

 

All that said, really have my eye on the JPX 921 line and will most likely go buy a set because I chase shiny objects. 

[Pepperturbo]

6 hours ago, driveandputtmachine said:

I am not great, I do not play on tour, I am a local golfer like many of you.  I do know that SGI or GI do not make your good shots any better, or worse, or have a bigger range, that is an absolute.

 

 The italic I agree with but the bold disagree with. 

 

I've seen it first hand when friends try my 620 irons.  The MBs have very little forgiveness so someone use to SGI hitting my MB 7i usually gets lousy result.  Your swing has to be grooved to get consistent results.  However, they feel a bit better when hitting 620CB 7i, there is a smidgen more forgiveness.  If a person is use to SGI, 620 will make the same level of ball striking worse.  If I get at all lazy MB 5i will be short by 15yds.   Yesterday, friends were kind with their observational words when I hit a stinky drive on a long par 4, then pulled CB 3i and hit a beauty 195yds just short of the green, got up and down to save par.  My 2cents.  Have a good day.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Pepperturbo

[driveandputtmachine]

48 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

 The italic I agree with but the bold disagree with. 

 

I've seen it first hand when friends try my 620 irons.  The MBs have very little forgiveness so someone use to SGI hitting my MB 7i usually gets lousy result.  Your swing has to be grooved to get consistent results.  However, they feel a bit better when hitting 620CB 7i, there is a smidgen more forgiveness.  If a person is use to SGI, 620 will make the same level of ball striking worse.  If I get at all lazy MB 5i will be short by 15yds.   Yesterday, friends were kind with their observational words when I hit a stinky drive on a long par 4, then pulled CB 3i and hit a beauty 195yds just short of the green, got up and down to save par.  My 2cents.  Have a good day.

See that's the thing, no one golfer is the same.  Making a blanket statement is never correct in golf.  NEVER.  Not just sometimes, or most of the time.  NEVER.   You are arguing that every golfer that plays SGI irons can get lazy with their iron shots and hit them worse.  That also is not true, see below.  Your friends trying your 7 iron may not swing your shaft, weight/balance point well.  There is a golfer at my club just out of college, and is a great ball striker, if I hand him a random MB or CB that is completely different than what he plays, he will more than likely not hit it great.  The fact I was stating is that a well struck SGI doesn't out of the blue make good shots worse.  ie, a well struck shot with say a SGI long iron doesn't out of the blue go 20 yards too far.

 

I hate to use PGA tour players as a measuring stick, but I think they are all good strikers of the ball, this we agree on.  A guy that is using a SGI as a driving iron isn't going to get sloppy in his ball striking.  Rickie Fowler has played a SGI or similar type driving iron for a couple of years.  Rickie's good shots with the Speedzone 4 and 5 iron he was/is using do not make his good shots worse.  They also did not make him swing sloppy with his other irons.

 

 

[chippa13]

On 9/11/2020 at 3:08 PM, Exactice808 said:

This was exactly my long winded answer from the first page.

 

It just depends on the player and what plays best to their strengths/weakness  

 

Last but not least,  their pride/ego.  I admit,  that is partially my choice as well. I shoot high and low scores, so I might as play what I like

 

Here is an Ego point though.

 

Same Course 2 weeks in a row, alternated between AP2's and MB's

 

AP2s - Bad day shot 91, (lost ball, pace of play, drop, 2 stroke penalty ) 6 GIR, 36 putts (6 doubles and 2 triples, 1 birdie)   

Cobra MB's - rough holes but ok play, 84 (4 strokes of penalties, 2 lost ball 2 separate holes)  5 GIR, 29 putts ( 2 triples, mentioned 2 stroke penalty these were the holes,  3 birdies)


Ok so low GIR, (windy) 

Putting 36 with the AP2, vs 29 with the MBs, this likely indicates proximity no?  father away from hole, more putts, closer to hole less puts?

Specified Score, 6 doubles, 2 triples 1 birdie, meaning consistency or accuracy of second shot to hole,  Many of the AP2 shots were  farther resulted in less optimal up and downs

vs 2 triples and 3 birdies, indicates proximity likely closer with the MB's or the misses where in better positions to scramble?

 

 

Now is this saying the MBs are better? HECK no,  it just means that the tendencies of my personal game seem to gravitate and play better with the MBs.

 

 

I can say I have played quite a bit with both sets. So I will be as honest and unbiased that I am not fully biased to one set....But it just seems specifically set to set, miss to miss, one seemingly has an edge.

 

last point, IF the GI's provided me with a greater edge and scored better would I play them exclusively ABSOLUTELY!!! NO DOUBT... so I am not so prideful or stubborn not to switch if and when appropriate.  

 

 

Without including driving accuracy stats and distances from the green on 2nd/3rd shots one really can't judge the 2 rounds against each other. 5 vs 6 greens in regulation doesn't really indicate that iron accuracy with either set of clubs is anything to write home about. When you missed 12/13 greens, most of your scores were determined by your chipping/pitching game. So many variables to poke holes into this anectdotal "evidence".

[Exactice808]

4 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

Without including driving accuracy stats and distances from the green on 2nd/3rd shots one really can't judge the 2 rounds against each other. 5 vs 6 greens in regulation doesn't really indicate that iron accuracy with either set of clubs is anything to write home about. When you missed 12/13 greens, most of your scores were determined by your chipping/pitching game. So many variables to poke holes into this anectdotal "evidence".

 

I have stats tracked over the course of 2020 this year from my initial post showing 6 GIR with the Game Improvements and 7 GIR with the MB's. (this was about 2 pages back)

 

This was a simple recent prior 2 weeks of golf. Showing the similarities of GIR (STILL during Corona with less play and practice).   These 2 rounds are close in GIR.  Its NOT Far off from my 2020 tracked stats of 6, GI vs 7, MB.

 

 

As for Driving accuracy stats and distance, while sure we can go perfect. the Implied point was;

 

My GIR dont differ that much between GI and MB's  There does not show a major statistical benefit of the GI over the MB's while the GI being more "forgiving"  

 

As you stated you are CORRECT 12/13 greens missed on both days showed my scores were determined by my chipping and pitching game. inciting that my proximity was likely closer with the MB's AND/OR the misses were better with the MB's than the GI's giving me better opportunities to scramble.

 

 

Which in my opinion playing both rounds,  YES I scrambled much better with the MB's because the locations of the miss were better for my game specifically to where I complimented it through the score, compared to the Game Improvement day, which many of the misses were not optimal and I Struggled to get up and down.

[chippa13]

If you're only hitting 6/7 greens per round, it is almost folly to say you have such a thing as an "optimal miss".

[Exactice808]

1 hour ago, chippa13 said:

If you're only hitting 6/7 greens per round, it is almost folly to say you have such a thing as an "optimal miss".

As that is your opinion that you are free to express. I as well have my own opinions but that's really all it is, an opinion?

 

Symantec's then,  My correction,  instead of optimal, how about preferred missed, does that make it any different?

 

The implied point is that yes I Miss,  yet when I miss with the the GI, I have a harder time scrambling for some odd reason.  This is compared to the MB miss. It seems to suit my current ability.  YET,  when I dont miss, I seem to be in a closer proximity to take advantage with the MB's than I have with the GI's giving me legitimate birdie opportunities?

 

What does it matter if I hit 2 GIR or 14 GIR.  Heck I can miss all greens in one round,  yet if I am in a better position to scramble and get up and down and make par isnt that whats all that matters.  compared to being in a harder position or a situation that does not fit my current ability?  If the MB's seemingly leave me in a better position.  Why should I struggle with the GI's that leave me in a "less then preferred" position when I miss.

 

 

lastly, 
http://www.golfwrx.com/285949/the-truth-behind-greens-in-regulation-and-scoring/

 

 

 

between 7&6 GIR and my 2019-2020 grand total averages,  GIR being 38% or 7 GIR.  

This is my current ability,  I dont claim to be a scratch golfer.  But if I shoot the same scores and similar scores with the GI and MB,  whats it to you what I play?  Or can you give me additional empirical evidence to my game that the GI would enhance my game?

 

The op asked for experience between changes of clubs.  So I thought to share my personal experiences.  Not implying my experiences is to be applied to anyone else but myself.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Exactice808

[chippa13]

I don't care what anybody plays but don't try to tell me that you are better with one club than another based on 38% GIR. And being on the green in regulation is almost always a better option for par than not being on the green. When is the last time you heard on a golf telecast, "Good thing he missed the green on this one, much better chance at par now"? You don't because it is extremely unlikely. There is a reason why us average Joe's are advised to aim for the middle of the green on most holes.

[Golf4lifer]

35 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

I don't care what anybody plays but don't try to tell me that you are better with one club than another based on 38% GIR. And being on the green in regulation is almost always a better option for par than not being on the green. When is the last time you heard on a golf telecast, "Good thing he missed the green on this one, much better chance at par now"? You don't because it is extremely unlikely. There is a reason why us average Joe's are advised to aim for the middle of the green on most holes.

Why can’t a player be better with one club with a 38% GIR? Maybe with the other clubs they were at a 24% GIR...so in their case one club is better for them. 
 

We may not hear to miss a green to make par, but we hear plenty this is the side to miss on because it gives you a better chance at making par. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Golf4lifer
Auto correct issues

[Exactice808]

1 hour ago, chippa13 said:

I don't care what anybody plays but don't try to tell me that you are better with one club than another based on 38% GIR. And being on the green in regulation is almost always a better option for par than not being on the green. When is the last time you heard on a golf telecast, "Good thing he missed the green on this one, much better chance at par now"? You don't because it is extremely unlikely. There is a reason why us average Joe's are advised to aim for the middle of the green on most holes.

 

That is your interpretation.  That is what I am trying to share my experience, specifically for me.  You may not agree with it,  But that is my experience.

So here are a couple more points.

 

1) If GI's should be better fom my game,  outside of the misses, why am I not getting MORE Greens in regulation than I am with the MB? It should be more forgiving? I should be aiming for the middle of the green?  Why has the GIR not increased then?  Why am I not closer to the hole nor getting more GIR's?  More so closer to the hole to get better scoring opportunities when I hit the green?

2) If the GI are more forgiving does forgiveness increase proximity to the hole? Or is it just the retention of ball speed on less then optimal strikes. That still means I may have a face angle issue rather than a strike issue and the ball starting in the wrong direction and going further in the wrong direction?

3) Who says I am trying to miss the green?  That is quite asinine? And quite the loaded statement?  I am not trying to miss the green, Im Trying to hit the green. 

 

 

Based on my skill now,  If I am blessed with 38% GIR or 7 of 18.  Those 7 of 18 giving me closer proximity.   Secondly the 11/18 missed greens are in better scrambling locations?  Please tell me why the GI's are not improving my stats then?  As you seem you are  implying the GI's Alone would fix my game?

 

 

I assume you would have to agree that clubs alone wont fix my game, but practices and better technique regardless of the club in my hand would probably benefit me right?

 

THUS, if I shoot similar scores,  have similar GIRs but found one set give me a slight advantage of proximity to the hole when hitting a green and a better scrambling opportunity when I miss the green. Would it be better to play those clubs?  As I mention in a prior post, if and when the GI's provide me better proximity and better misses.  Then I would SWITCH in a heart beat.  I would play something that gives me the best opportunity.  Today, this week, this month, this year.  the MB's seemingly are doing so.  

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Exactice808

[martinbns]

12 hours ago, Hogan9 said:

I think another factor for those of us that are older and have been playing for a long time, is how the clubs looks. I'm 70 and grew up playing blades because there were no GI irons. While we know GI irons are more forgiving, we're just not comfortable with how they look. I like my Mizuno JPX 850s because they look like blades when sitting behind the ball. That gives me confidence.

I play 825's after 800's and both are actually included in the SGI category by Golf in the Club test.  I think the 850's look great.

[Long_Left]

Probably not adding anything that hasn't been said, just experience from changing from "Game Improvement" Callaway X-20 Tour to "Player's Distance" Ping i500 this summer. Some background, currently a 46 year old (young kids, etc) with a renewed focus on golf due to working from home blah blah blah... I've never stopped playing since 1994, but from 2010 to this March I've played less than 15 rounds a year. Random 78s in those years but a lot of 88s. Most of my golf was highly focused around the 23 year old annual buddies trip.

 

Decided to spring for new irons this year, acquired the x-20s in 2007?(fitted, PX 6.5 flighted) and wanted something that I could play with less than perfect ballstriking but not "bad..." just the occasional clanker when I overswing, toe side, thin or steep chunk. Currently a 5.8, Driver swing speed ~112.

 

Went thru a bunch of options, mostly in the one fitting session as I'm a lefty in the middle of Southern NM and golf retail and demo days and such are non-existent in the area, and settled on the i500 in retro lofts, KBS C-Taper Lite in X.

 

My experience going from GI irons with little offset, to PD irons with little offset has been fantastic. Distance has not changed, lofts are within 1 degree on the sets, spin numbers are down ~7% but angle of descent is steeper by ~3 degrees. Index is trending down, GIR numbers trending up. Lots of practice time in there too...

 

The biggest benefit of the i500 for me is ball flight consistency, the 17th at my home course is a par 3 playing ~175 to center and 15 yards uphill. It's a stock 7 to the front for me (4000 feet of elevation here, don't flip out) and I can "hit" a 7 to back center, playing last weekend I hit a ball a groove or two low and half a ball to the toe, front of the green with no discernible difference in shot shape, height, etc, from a center hit to an onlooker. Stopped within 3 feet of the pitch mark on fairly soft greens. "Thinned" shots do not scream over the back and chase. Same goes for a groove or two heavy, anyone but me has no idea the ball wasn't struck perfectly. All of these are in relation to the X-20s, better consistency from every metric I've experienced.

 

I've had 1 shot so far in 20ish rounds played go farther than I found "reasonable" which was an 8 iron downhill from 172. I've hit that shot a thousand times (another par 3) and that one flew the green on an ideal strike.

 

Play the clubs that give you confidence over them, my personal game benefits from the forgiveness of the hollow head iron. I've been whipped by guys playing 1980s blades and whipped by guys playing SGI with graphite shafts.

 

 

 

[chipa]

I am making the change to single length GI irons for the mid and low irons. I have been playing a small cavity back but honestly at 55 with only the ability to hit the range once a week is not enough time to fine tune my swing so any workability I may lose will be more than offset by the forgiveness afforded by GI irons.

 

The real issue for me has been finding something forgiving but not to big with too much offset, which imo is more than 3 mm, plus there is a cost consideration too. Fortunately I'm a minilmalist and build my own clubs so this certainly helps me on my way to getting setup with the equipment that is a good fit.

[Pepperturbo]

On 9/14/2020 at 2:20 PM, driveandputtmachine said:

See that's the thing, no one golfer is the same.  Making a blanket statement is never correct in golf.  NEVER.  Not just sometimes, or most of the time.  NEVER.   You are arguing that every golfer that plays SGI irons can get lazy with their iron shots and hit them worse.  That also is not true, see below.  Your friends trying your 7 iron may not swing your shaft, weight/balance point well.  There is a golfer at my club just out of college, and is a great ball striker, if I hand him a random MB or CB that is completely different than what he plays, he will more than likely not hit it great.  The fact I was stating is that a well struck SGI doesn't out of the blue make good shots worse.  ie, a well struck shot with say a SGI long iron doesn't out of the blue go 20 yards too far.

 

I hate to use PGA tour players as a measuring stick, but I think they are all good strikers of the ball, this we agree on.  A guy that is using a SGI as a driving iron isn't going to get sloppy in his ball striking.  Rickie Fowler has played a SGI or similar type driving iron for a couple of years.  Rickie's good shots with the Speedzone 4 and 5 iron he was/is using do not make his good shots worse.  They also did not make him swing sloppy with his other irons.

 

 

 

Sorry, but did you miss read what I wrote?   I've seen many golfers that are decent get lazy with SGI iron, and hit a stinky shot.  My buddy plays Ping and does it a few times per round.  "If a person is use to SGI, my Titleist 620 MB will make the same lazy level of ball striking, worse."   I've seen it.  Blanket statements fit the majority, not the exceptions.

 

Think, for a minute - I am talking about decent golfers.  Good golfers allegedly can hit any club decently.  So can many of my buddies with indexes under 8ish.  I can even if it has a 133g X7 shaft, I just won't hit it as far as my comparable iron because of the weight and my age.  Take a 6-11 handicap and if he's use to a lot forgiveness then hand him my MB 7 he's not going to have a good experience.  Shafts and weight are not an excuse either.  My shafts are 115 grams and stiff, nothing special.  Most of my buddies play similar weight and S-flex.  The better the golfer the easier it is for them to adapt too.  It has everything to do with how grooved one's swing is, what they are use to and how mentally quick they adapt to change.  I use tour players in discussions they are NOT good examples.  They are the exception to most rules. 

 

Someone use to hitting SGI heads is also use to SGI forgiveness, which is a large reason for buying them.  Also means missing the sweet spot is no big deal, as the ball is likely to travel nearly as far as a good strike.  That same guy hitting my 620 MB 5-7i is NOT going to get same result with a lazy swing.  That's not to say he can't improve it's to say it will take him some time to adjust.  On the other hand, during a recent round my buddy handed me his Ping 5i iron and said hit this... I smacked it 180yds.  It was graphite shafted 80g and R.  The result was because of my swing and ability to adapt.  No biggy.  But to each their own perceptions.  Have a good day.  

[chipa]

On 9/14/2020 at 8:33 AM, Hogan9 said:

I think another factor for those of us that are older and have been playing for a long time, is how the clubs looks. I'm 70 and grew up playing blades because there were no GI irons. While we know GI irons are more forgiving, we're just not comfortable with how they look. I like my Mizuno JPX 850s because they look like blades when sitting behind the ball. That gives me confidence.

 

I started playing in the mid 90's before the big GI irons started really coming out and I also have tried the new GI and cannot hit them due to the size and the offset. I don't play enough to play blades, only once a week either at the range or the course so I'm trying a smaller GI iron with minimal offset (3 mm). Hopefully I'll soon have a good fit. Fortunately I am a minimalist and build my own clubs so I might have to spend and lose only $200 before I get it right.

[mahonie]

1 hour ago, Pepperturbo said:

 

Sorry, but did you miss read what I wrote?   I've seen many golfers that are decent get lazy with SGI iron, and hit a stinky shot.  My buddy plays Ping and does it a few times per round.  "If a person is use to SGI, my Titleist 620 MB will make the same lazy level of ball striking, worse."   I've seen it.  Blanket statements fit the majority, not the exceptions.

 

Think, for a minute - I am talking about decent golfers.  Good golfers allegedly can hit any club decently.  So can many of my buddies with indexes under 8ish.  I can even if it has a 133g X7 shaft, I just won't hit it as far as my comparable iron because of the weight and my age.  Take a 6-11 handicap and if he's use to a lot forgiveness then hand him my MB 7 he's not going to have a good experience.  Shafts and weight are not an excuse either.  My shafts are 115 grams and stiff, nothing special.  Most of my buddies play similar weight and S-flex.  The better the golfer the easier it is for them to adapt too.  It has everything to do with how grooved one's swing is, what they are use to and how mentally quick they adapt to change.  I use tour players in discussions they are NOT good examples.  They are the exception to most rules. 

 

Someone use to hitting SGI heads is also use to SGI forgiveness, which is a large reason for buying them.  Also means missing the sweet spot is no big deal, as the ball is likely to travel nearly as far as a good strike.  That same guy hitting my 620 MB 5-7i is NOT going to get same result with a lazy swing.  That's not to say he can't improve it's to say it will take him some time to adjust.  On the other hand, during a recent round my buddy handed me his Ping 5i iron and said hit this... I smacked it 180yds.  It was graphite shafted 80g and R.  The result was because of my swing and ability to adapt.  No biggy.  But to each their own perceptions.  Have a good day.  

 

Funnily enough I had the opposite experience with one of my mates playing G10s I mentioned awhile back. A couple of years ago on the par 3 4th hole at our home course we were waiting on the tee and got to talking about clubs. My mate, a solid 10 handicap, picked my MP4 7-iron out of my bag and questioned how on earth I could hit something so small. I said with his swing he would have no trouble, why not have a go at the green? He teed up a ball and struck a sweet shot to about 10 feet. His partner, also a G10 player, bet him that he couldn’t hit the green again. He teed another ball up, flushed it and hit that inside the first. The look on his face was priceless.

 

The thing that surprised him the most was that he knew where the ball would land as soon as he made contact. He jokingly asked me how much I would sell my clubs for and I gave him the obvious answer. He then said, as good as those 2 shots were, he wouldn’t have the confidence to game such a set and he is still playing his G10s to a 10 handicap.

 

It’s speculation on my part, but I could easily see him playing to a 5 handicap on the evidence of the control he exhibited in those 2 shots. He practices every day for a couple of hours and I suspect his irons have held him back. As I said previously, he hits almost every shot a tad fat without ever knowing he’s doing that...he’s played Pings his whole life and has always had the same turf-ball contact. In fact, his game suffers the one month of the year when our course gets dried out and bone hard as he thins every iron shot as the bounce of the club takes the leading edge up the ball. The 11 months our course is lush (or soaking wet) it works in his favour. I try a play against him in the summer months...I have half a chance then ?

[flushem]

41 minutes ago, mahonie said:

 

Funnily enough I had the opposite experience with one of my mates playing G10s I mentioned awhile back. A couple of years ago on the par 3 4th hole at our home course we were waiting on the tee and got to talking about clubs. My mate, a solid 10 handicap, picked my MP4 7-iron out of my bag and questioned how on earth I could hit something so small. I said with his swing he would have no trouble, why not have a go at the green? He teed up a ball and struck a sweet shot to about 10 feet. His partner, also a G10 player, bet him that he couldn’t hit the green again. He teed another ball up, flushed it and hit that inside the first. The look on his face was priceless.

 

The thing that surprised him the most was that he knew where the ball would land as soon as he made contact. He jokingly asked me how much I would sell my clubs for and I gave him the obvious answer. He then said, as good as those 2 shots were, he wouldn’t have the confidence to game such a set and he is still playing his G10s to a 10 handicap.

 

It’s speculation on my part, but I could easily see him playing to a 5 handicap on the evidence of the control he exhibited in those 2 shots. He practices every day for a couple of hours and I suspect his irons have held him back. As I said previously, he hits almost every shot a tad fat without ever knowing he’s doing that...he’s played Pings his whole life and has always had the same turf-ball contact. In fact, his game suffers the one month of the year when our course gets dried out and bone hard as he thins every iron shot as the bounce of the club takes the leading edge up the ball. The 11 months our course is lush (or soaking wet) it works in his favour. I try a play against him in the summer months...I have half a chance then ?

 

I do have the same experience as your mate. 

 

Last year, I sold Mizuno JPX EZ Forged (GI) and got Honma 747V (Players).  my hcp went downy by full 4 pts within a year. 

I thought I would have hard time hitting balls but I did not.  Perhaps because I concentrate more on every swing, I find player's iron more playable and slightly less than previous GI.  To boost my ego even more, now I have mixed MB and CB set.  I enjoy every bit of the current set due to better control and feel. 

 

I watched very recent SGI review on YT.  The carry range of 7 irons was over 20 yds (both front & back and right & left).  For me, that is not acceptable.  lack of control is reason why I stay from GI and SGI.  

 

Probably, I will join the GI group soon as my aging process is accelerating.  But I would like to enjoy this moment as long as possible.  

[chippa13]

Here we go with the whole "concentrate more" deal. Were you not trying before?

[NRJyzr]

2 hours ago, gbartko said:

When I get lazy I hit a small bucket with a Titleist forging as a punishment. 

 

Anything Titleist is a punishment in itself

[mahonie]

7 hours ago, chippa13 said:

Here we go with the whole "concentrate more" deal. Were you not trying before?

 

There have been a few studies.

 

It’s not so much about ‘concentrating more’ but about holding focus on the target (i.e. the ball) more. Using a smaller clubhead has the side effect of causing you to focus more on the ball than you usually would because you don’t want to whiff it. That is what is causing the better strike, call it holding focus or concentrating more, it boils down to the same thing.

 

https://golfstateofmind.com/tour-player-secret-better-ball-striking/amp/

 

The Callaway Triple Track putter/ball is using the same principle. Trying to line the 3 lines up makes you hold focus for longer and the benefit is a better strike.

[North Butte]

Why not just pay someone to stand by you on the driving range and whack you up aside the head with a yardstick every time you make a bad swing? With that kind of feedback you ought to be a heck of a ball striker in no time at all!

[chippa13]

6 hours ago, mahonie said:

 

There have been a few studies.

 

It’s not so much about ‘concentrating more’ but about holding focus on the target (i.e. the ball) more. Using a smaller clubhead has the side effect of causing you to focus more on the ball than you usually would because you don’t want to whiff it. That is what is causing the better strike, call it holding focus or concentrating more, it boils down to the same thing.

 

https://golfstateofmind.com/tour-player-secret-better-ball-striking/amp/

 

The Callaway Triple Track putter/ball is using the same principle. Trying to line the 3 lines up makes you hold focus for longer and the benefit is a better strike.

When I golf I am focused on the target. The ball just happens to be in the way of my club.

[mahonie]

53 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

When I golf I am focused on the target. The ball just happens to be in the way of my club.

 

When I can free my mind to have that one singular thought of ‘target’ I play my best golf. Bob Rotella’s books are a great help on this subject but it’s as hard to train your brain as it is your golf swing...if not harder.

 

One thing I would say is that my mate with the G10s is very target focussed. For how his swing has been grooved by playing G-series irons for his whole golfing life, hitting the ball very slightly fat is the absolute best way for him to hit target. That his target is to hit the green and not hit every shot stiff says a lot about how his game has evolved and why he is a 10 handicap and not a 5.

 

From 30 feet on the green he is aiming to get within a 3 feet circle of the hole and not actually targeting the hole. Subsequently, he doesn’t hole a lot of long putts but the flip side is that he doesn’t three putt very often. You take what you can get.

[jplroper]

     I don't have anything against SGI or GI irons, but I seem to have a weird time hitting offset long irons. The short irons are no problem but the long irons are tough and I hit my non offset  long irons fine[for me]. Any one else have this strange out come? I have a strange swing with alot of face rotation and it just feels like the club has flipped over with the more off set irons.

[North Butte]

14 minutes ago, jplroper said:

     I don't have anything against SGI or GI irons, but I seem to have a weird time hitting offset long irons. The short irons are no problem but the long irons are tough and I hit my non offset  long irons fine[for me]. Any one else have this strange out come? I have a strange swing with alot of face rotation and it just feels like the club has flipped over with the more off set irons.

I can play offset or non-offset irons either one, it just takes an adjustment when switching.

 

For me, the main thing it does is put doubt in my mind about whether I really have the face squared up. If I've been hitting low-offset irons and switch to a set of Ping G-whatevers it takes quite a few rounds before "square" really looks "square" to me.

 

Maybe that's part of your problem with offset long irons. The offset ones never look quite square so your "flipped over" reaction happens too much.

[jplroper]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

I can play offset or non-offset irons either one, it just takes an adjustment when switching.

 

For me, the main thing it does is put doubt in my mind about whether I really have the face squared up. If I've been hitting low-offset irons and switch to a set of Ping G-whatevers it takes quite a few rounds before "square" really looks "square" to me.

 

Maybe that's part of your problem with offset long irons. The offset ones never look quite square so your "flipped over" reaction happens too much.

       I think that sounds right.

[chipa]

The issue with the GI with lots of offset(4mm+) is that for someone who hits a draw the clubface will be more closed at impact because the face is behind the shaft during impact so the only way to play these w/o changing one's swing is to open the face - which probably isn't the best thing.

 

I find that I like between a and 3 mm of offset.

[eric61]

16 hours ago, mahonie said:

 

There have been a few studies.

 

It’s not so much about ‘concentrating more’ but about holding focus on the target (i.e. the ball) more. Using a smaller clubhead has the side effect of causing you to focus more on the ball than you usually would because you don’t want to whiff it. That is what is causing the better strike, call it holding focus or concentrating more, it boils down to the same thing.

 

https://golfstateofmind.com/tour-player-secret-better-ball-striking/amp/

 

The Callaway Triple Track putter/ball is using the same principle. Trying to line the 3 lines up makes you hold focus for longer and the benefit is a better strike.

This is so interesting, and fully explains something weird I experienced today. 

 

I'm a very high handicapper -- like breaking 100 is a good day for me -- so I'm far from what anyone would consider a good ball-striker. I fairly recently got back into golf and started taking lessons, and I've been using my 20+ year old PowerBilt irons I got when I was 12. After a few nudges, I went into the fitter at the course where I'm taking lessons today. I went into a fitting today expecting that "super game improvement" irons with maybe a regular-flex shaft would be ideal for me. I asked to test the Ping G710 first because I like the way it looks. Lots and lots of testing later, it turned out I needed 120g stiff shafts and did much better with irons with a little smaller head size (specifically the TaylorMade P770).

 

Something about that smaller size suited my eye and my swing felt keyed in, but I've been struggling to figure out how to explain it. Obviously I was concentrating with every iron I lined up, you know what I mean? But the improved results with the smaller head were clear as day.

Edited September 17, 2020 by eric61