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Game Improvement Irons vs. Player's Irons


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The issue with the GI with lots of offset(4mm+) is that for someone who hits a draw the clubface will be more closed at impact because the face is behind the shaft during impact so the only way to play these w/o changing one's swing is to open the face - which probably isn't the best thing.

 

I find that I like between a and 3 mm of offset.

 

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Use whatever you are comfortable with,  but GI irons won't save a swing that isn't working, they can only do so much   Don't worry about accuracy, if people like myself and many others can p

Here we go with the whole "concentrate more" deal. Were you not trying before?

I said in the other thread but i feel like a lot of the bad things attributed to GIs or SGI's are not really that bad and/or are exaggerated. I've used players clubs enough to know that i can use them

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16 hours ago, mahonie said:

 

There have been a few studies.

 

It’s not so much about ‘concentrating more’ but about holding focus on the target (i.e. the ball) more. Using a smaller clubhead has the side effect of causing you to focus more on the ball than you usually would because you don’t want to whiff it. That is what is causing the better strike, call it holding focus or concentrating more, it boils down to the same thing.

 

https://golfstateofmind.com/tour-player-secret-better-ball-striking/amp/

 

The Callaway Triple Track putter/ball is using the same principle. Trying to line the 3 lines up makes you hold focus for longer and the benefit is a better strike.

This is so interesting, and fully explains something weird I experienced today. 

 

I'm a very high handicapper -- like breaking 100 is a good day for me -- so I'm far from what anyone would consider a good ball-striker. I fairly recently got back into golf and started taking lessons, and I've been using my 20+ year old PowerBilt irons I got when I was 12. After a few nudges, I went into the fitter at the course where I'm taking lessons today. I went into a fitting today expecting that "super game improvement" irons with maybe a regular-flex shaft would be ideal for me. I asked to test the Ping G710 first because I like the way it looks. Lots and lots of testing later, it turned out I needed 120g stiff shafts and did much better with irons with a little smaller head size (specifically the TaylorMade P770).

 

Something about that smaller size suited my eye and my swing felt keyed in, but I've been struggling to figure out how to explain it. Obviously I was concentrating with every iron I lined up, you know what I mean? But the improved results with the smaller head were clear as day.

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22 minutes ago, eric61 said:

This is so interesting, and fully explains something weird I experienced today. 

 

I'm a very high handicapper -- like breaking 100 is a good day for me -- so I'm far from what anyone would consider a good ball-striker. I fairly recently got back into golf and started taking lessons, and I've been using my 20+ year old PowerBilt irons I got when I was 12. After a few nudges, I went into the fitter at the course where I'm taking lessons today. I went into a fitting today expecting that "super game improvement" irons with maybe a regular-flex shaft would be ideal for me. I asked to test the Ping G710 first because I like the way it looks. Lots and lots of testing later, it turned out I needed 120g stiff shafts and did much better with irons with a little smaller head size (specifically the TaylorMade P770).

 

Something about that smaller size suited my eye and my swing felt keyed in, but I've been struggling to figure out how to explain it. Obviously I was concentrating with every iron I lined up, you know what I mean? But the improved results with the smaller head were clear as day.

so did you get new set of irons or will you?  

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On 9/14/2020 at 8:33 AM, Hogan9 said:

I think another factor for those of us that are older and have been playing for a long time, is how the clubs looks. I'm 70 and grew up playing blades because there were no GI irons. While we know GI irons are more forgiving, we're just not comfortable with how they look. I like my Mizuno JPX 850s because they look like blades when sitting behind the ball. That gives me confidence.

This is humorous, as I'm the complete opposite!  When I was in 4th and 5th grade (97-98), just learning to play in a few odd summer leagues, I was using my dad's old cut-down blades from the 70's and all my buds were playing with complete youth sets of cavity-backs and other GI-style clubs.  While my clubs were thin and chrome, with pinstriped letters and branding, theirs were brushed nickel finished with big, flashy logos and grips that matched their golf bags.  Being that we were just learning, their ultra-forgiving clubs were easier to hit; my clubs had a lot of thin hits, hosel rockets, and fat chunks...so, my initial exposure to golf was that big, bold colors and logos, and wild designs played better and were better than clean, tight, and subtle.  Old habits die hard, and I still have a hard time letting go of those ideas.

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Here's one for ya! Been comparing Maltby PTM against Titleist T300. Both irons are same L/L/L and the PTM has Elevate 105 and T300 had AMT Black (similar weight in 7 iron) however the T300 are a consistent pull/draw and the PTM are right as rain. MPF says these irons are very similar in the UGI Category so what do you think gives?

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8 hours ago, dhen9 said:

Here's one for ya! Been comparing Maltby PTM against Titleist T300. Both irons are same L/L/L and the PTM has Elevate 105 and T300 had AMT Black (similar weight in 7 iron) however the T300 are a consistent pull/draw and the PTM are right as rain. MPF says these irons are very similar in the UGI Category so what do you think gives?

 

The PTM's have relatively low offset(<3mm) while the T300 look to have considerably more, maybe 4-6 mm. 

 

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10 hours ago, dhen9 said:

Here's one for ya! Been comparing Maltby PTM against Titleist T300. Both irons are same L/L/L and the PTM has Elevate 105 and T300 had AMT Black (similar weight in 7 iron) however the T300 are a consistent pull/draw and the PTM are right as rain. MPF says these irons are very similar in the UGI Category so what do you think gives?

 

First thing I'll say, don't use the final score in MPF, it doesn't mean what many think it does.

 

Have you compared the actual lie angles of the clubs?  Not their published specs, but the lies of the clubs you are actually hitting?  Another thought is swingweight, with both clubs having same weight shafts, if they're different enough, it *could* have an affect on shot results.

 

It could even be something as simple as alignment, you setting up a little more closed with the evil Titleist due to its visual appearance.

 

Or something else entirely.  ?

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Driver:  Cobra Fly-Z+, Xcaliber 7.5 TS, 44", King LTD, HZRDUS 75 6.5, 44.25"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, Aldila Tour Blue 85 S, 42.5"; Stage 2 Tour, SK Fiber Tour Trac 100 X, 42.5"
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, NV105 S or DGS400

Irons grab bag:  Mizuno MP-37, DGS300; Golden Ram TW276, NV105; Golden Ram TW282, Precision 6.5; Ram TG-898, Super Peening Blue X; 1980 Golden Rams, Dynamic S; MacGregor Muirfield, Dynamic S; Wilson Staff 78 Tour Blades, Dynamic S
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SW:  Ram Watson Scoring System 55*, DGX 7i shaft; Ram TG-898, DGS400; Ram TG-898, NV105 S; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS300; Ram 1982 Commemorative Nickel 58*, Dynamic S; Ram TW282, DGS; Ram TW276, DGS
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On 9/14/2020 at 4:11 PM, Pepperturbo said:

 The italic I agree with but the bold disagree with. 

 

I've seen it first hand when friends try my 620 irons.  The MBs have very little forgiveness so someone use to SGI hitting my MB 7i usually gets lousy result.  Your swing has to be grooved to get consistent results.  However, they feel a bit better when hitting 620CB 7i, there is a smidgen more forgiveness.  If a person is use to SGI, 620 will make the same level of ball striking worse.  If I get at all lazy MB 5i will be short by 15yds.   Yesterday, friends were kind with their observational words when I hit a stinky drive on a long par 4, then pulled CB 3i and hit a beauty 195yds just short of the green, got up and down to save par.  My 2cents.  Have a good day.

That's because you're awesome.

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On 9/18/2020 at 6:36 PM, Ripken08 said:

That's because you're awesome.

 

Thanks and true, for many people that actually know me.  YOU too should be able to hit a 3 iron, but if you can't, oh well.  Maybe when you grow out of your bias. ?

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I can hit a 3-iron just fine. It goes really low, rolls out a long way and if I put a bad swing on it I'll hit a low slice.

 

I can also hit a 3-hybrid just fine. It goes really low, rolls out a long way and if I put a bad swing on it I'll hit a low hook.

 

I generally leave those both out and hit a fairway wood (5-wood) of similar loft. It goes just a touch higher than the iron or hybrid, rolls out a long way and if I put a bad swing on it I'll top it or pop it up.

 

One way or another, it works well if I make a good swing and not so well if I don't. As a friend of mine say, from that kind of distance the question isn't how good are your good shots but how bad are your bad ones.

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On 9/17/2020 at 4:42 PM, eric61 said:

This is so interesting, and fully explains something weird I experienced today. 

 

I'm a very high handicapper -- like breaking 100 is a good day for me -- so I'm far from what anyone would consider a good ball-striker. I fairly recently got back into golf and started taking lessons, and I've been using my 20+ year old PowerBilt irons I got when I was 12. After a few nudges, I went into the fitter at the course where I'm taking lessons today. I went into a fitting today expecting that "super game improvement" irons with maybe a regular-flex shaft would be ideal for me. I asked to test the Ping G710 first because I like the way it looks. Lots and lots of testing later, it turned out I needed 120g stiff shafts and did much better with irons with a little smaller head size (specifically the TaylorMade P770).

 

Something about that smaller size suited my eye and my swing felt keyed in, but I've been struggling to figure out how to explain it. Obviously I was concentrating with every iron I lined up, you know what I mean? But the improved results with the smaller head were clear as day.

 

I believe "large heads are more forgiving" is a big lie perpetuated by the golf equipment companies. The club designers are engineers using computer software , not actual people playing golf. It's true that a larger head will provide better shot results from a mishit, and that is proven by the computer data. However, larger club heads may actually promote mishit shots, which is something the club design engineers refuse to talk about.

As you've discovered a relatively smaller club head may mean more quality shots.

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So now it is a conspiracy that the club manufacturers are lying to sell less expensive clubs instead of more expensive ones?

 

"Hey Bob, those $500 clubs we make are nowhere near as good for a high-capper as the $1,000 set. Should we tell them?"

"Nah, let's just keep making less money."

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36 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

So now it is a conspiracy that the club manufacturers are lying to sell less expensive clubs instead of more expensive ones?

 

"Hey Bob, those $500 clubs we make are nowhere near as good for a high-capper as the $1,000 set. Should we tell them?"

"Nah, let's just keep making less money."

 

The OEMs spend 9x as much on marketing as they do on R&D...cast cavity backs are made en masse in China for pennies/club head. I’m not saying that they’re lying but something doesn’t stack up.

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3 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

I believe "large heads are more forgiving" is a big lie perpetuated by the golf equipment companies. The club designers are engineers using computer software , not actual people playing golf. It's true that a larger head will provide better shot results from a mishit, and that is proven by the computer data. However, larger club heads may actually promote mishit shots, which is something the club design engineers refuse to talk about.

As you've discovered a relatively smaller club head may mean more quality shots.

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2 hours ago, mahonie said:

 

The OEMs spend 9x as much on marketing as they do on R&D...cast cavity backs are made en masse in China for pennies/club head. I’m not saying that they’re lying but something doesn’t stack up.

Echo, supply and demand for product release.

 

Mass Cast clubs vs,  custom spec-ed on off clubs?  They likely make WAY more money on the cast sets vs the Custom forgings.  With that selling them in masses and making more of the same exact clubs.  The are making huge profits.

 

In fairness... look at those made for sets, How could they sell a full and I mean full bag of clubs (driver to putter and bag) For under $500.   This has to mean that the set cost them $250 and they are still making a profit.

 

Outside of R&D,  I bet regular sets are going for $250, (retail $1,399).   Where is the profits going?  Marketing and Endorsements .....

 

 

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I am a +3.7 handicap and I got there with Cleveland Launcher UHX irons.  I recently switched back to the AP2's because the distance control with them is much better.  With game improvement clubs you need to be a little more conservative with your targets because the control is a little lacking but you're less likely to hit really terrible shots like you can with player's clubs.  I think I will go with something in between for my next iron set.  Perhaps the Callaway Apex (not the pro).

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I have srixon 545’s. I don’t seem to have problem with distance control or jumpers. I’ve always wondered why you wouldn’t just play a club that offers a little more forgiveness unless you hit the center of club every time 

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12 minutes ago, aggiegolfer21 said:

I am a +3.7 handicap and I got there with Cleveland Launcher UHX irons.  I recently switched back to the AP2's because the distance control with them is much better.  With game improvement clubs you need to be a little more conservative with your targets because the control is a little lacking but you're less likely to hit really terrible shots like you can with player's clubs.  I think I will go with something in between for my next iron set.  Perhaps the Callaway Apex (not the pro).

Man, good for you! I have some AP2's in the bag, but it looks like your UHX are similar to the 588MT/CB line that I had earlier. (Still have a 3 & 4 588MT for long irons to go with the Srixons!) Cleveland's stuff is underrated for sure. If people just stick to what they have, like you do, their scores will go lower. Mine did when I stopped messing around so much trying new stuff.

(But what fun is that?!) I was just wondering if I should get into something LIKE those Clevelands...

now I wish I had them ALL back! Funny how that works...

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I put together a partial set of GI irons and unfortunately I don't think I can hit them because they are too big for my eye. They are certainly more forgiving than my blades but I have a problem focusing on where to aim them so I mishit them too much. All in all I didn't hit them significantly better which was kind of a surprise. I suppose the smaller blades are what I need to keep my swing focused and more disciplined even though I am a high hc. Probably a small c.b. would be ideal for me.

 

Macgregor M-38 9.5 - Mondeo 5w - Heater F-35 3h - Heater BMT-3 4h - Acer XV Tour 5-S - Maltby LW - Bionik 105

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I think the GI irons being so large compared to what I am used to caused me to lose confidence and tighten up and my swing felt awful. I'm going to have to deal with playing blades and take my lumps for the bad swings. This kind of sounds like what some blade promoting poster on the forum was saying about blades making one have a more disciplined swing. I kind of chuckled when I saw that but now I think it may be relevant to some out there.

Edited by chipa

 

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2 hours ago, chipa said:

I think the GI irons being so large compared to what I am used to caused me to lose confidence and tighten up and my swing felt awful. I'm going to have to deal with playing blades and take my lumps for the bad swings. This kind of sounds like what some blade promoting poster on the forum was saying about blades making one have a more disciplined swing. I kind of chuckled when I saw that but now I think it may be relevant to some out there.

 

Past 3 months, I have been playing mixed blades (8-P).  For the tournament next week, I plan to put Cavity-Back PI's (almost the same club head sizes as blades) back in my bag.  I hope I will not go through what you did with GI's.

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56 minutes ago, flushem said:

 

Past 3 months, I have been playing mixed blades (8-P).  For the tournament next week, I plan to put Cavity-Back PI's (almost the same club head sizes as blades) back in my bag.  I hope I will not go through what you did with GI's.

 

The issue for me is the club size, I don't like them large nor really long, plus I don't like anymore than 3-4 mm in offset. Some clubs have small offset but sharper transitions at the hosel like the old Hogans and I can't play them either because I have a strong grip and hook. I also don't like to see a lot of stuff behind the club either. A small CB that looks like a blade at address would be perfect for me. Good luck.

 

Macgregor M-38 9.5 - Mondeo 5w - Heater F-35 3h - Heater BMT-3 4h - Acer XV Tour 5-S - Maltby LW - Bionik 105

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For my swing I have found more consistent misses with my t100s over previous 919 forged. I like the look so it makes me want to practice more so I think that’s why I’m playing better. But overall haven’t seen a dramatic difference whether I’ve played Taylormade speedblade to MP20.  I like the tech in t100s to help a little but for me scoring is dependent on my driving and putting for the day. 

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How many of us that are over 40 played Ping Eye2 growing up and in college and were scratch golfers? For me, I feel I'm the worst iron player ever for someone who stays between 0-3 handicap. I keep wondering about going to a GI iron just to see what happens. 

 

PS...hey Ping please bring out a modern Eye 2 set of irons. lol

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