Why Do People Cheat (In Casual Rounds)?

[straightshot7]

I'm truly perplexed by this. For example:

 

Recently I played with a friend who is not really a hardcore golfer (he played college baseball) but he has started to take the game pretty seriously the past couple of years. He plays casually 1-2 times per week.

 

When we were sharing a cart, he hit a tee shot dead right. It was so far right it didn't actually go very far. He drove up and dropped about 75 yards ahead of where the ball actually entered the OB. I didn't say anything about this or the fact that he should have hit another one from the tee, because this is just a fun round. Well he proceeds to hit it short of the green, then pitch onto the green and two putt. So even if he used the "local rule" of dropping by the OB line, it would have been a 7. He proceeds to put down a 5 on the scorecard.

 

So basically he dropped and added no penalty strokes, as if his drive had gone there in the first place. Lol. 

 

He did this a couple of other times in the round: realistically had a 7 or 8 but put himself down for a 5.

 

I just don't understand this. Obviously it involves some kind of ego but how can he take himself seriously? He likes to say that he shoots 85. Deep down he must know that his "85" is actually more like a 90 or 95.

 

Also, this guy happens to be one of the most honorable and good people I know, outside of golf.

 

I know another guy like this also. He improves his lies and doesn't count all of his strokes, but at the end of the round always declares a precise score. He realistically shoots about 95 or 100 but says he shot 86 or 87. And he likes to say that he will break 80 soon. 

 

Personally I don't ever declare a score unless it's real. If I have a bad hole or two I'll just stop keeping score, if anything. I don't keep a handicap. But I just don't see the point in faking a score in a casual round.

 

I don't really call either one of these guys out on it, but it gets a little annoying when they talk about their scores. I did say to my friend the other day, "Wow, you gave yourself a 5 on that one?" and laughed, trying to imply how ridiculous it is but without being mean. 

 

Is this some type of mental condition? Why do people do this? 

[North Butte]

Are you competing with them? If they are not competing with anyone, then it is not possible to "cheat".

 

And please, please don't go for the risible "They are only cheating themselves". 

[Sawgrass]

Yes, it’s some type of mental condition.  

[straightshot7]

10 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Are you competing with them? If they are not competing with anyone, then it is not possible to "cheat".

 

And please, please don't go for the risible "They are only cheating themselves". 

 

I think most people would consider deliberately not counting all of your strokes, then marking an incorrect score on the scorecard to be some form of cheating.

 

If you don't want to consider it cheating, fine. But isn't it some form of dishonesty? And at the very least, strange? 

 

Isn't the whole point of a score to be an accurate, objective measure of your performance? Otherwise, why keep it?

[North Butte]

Just now, straightshot7 said:

Isn't the whole point of a score to be an accurate, objective measure of your performance? Otherwise, why keep it?

Ask your friend why he keeps score, I don't know. Obviously he doesn't want an "accurate, objective measure of his performance". I expect he just wants to play golf for a few hours, it's a fun game no matter how you score it. 

 

 

[LeoLeo99]

People do this. One group i rarely play with this.  We were in a tough hole and we all slapped it around.  I don't even think they finished the hole.  I declare my score of 6. The score keeper says that "we're all taking 5s.".  Um, ok.  We add them up at the end and the guy says he shot 79. I'm not sure he broke 100. I raised my eyebrow a little and his friend quietly told me that this guy gets upset if he doesn't break 80. Um, ok.  Nice guy.  

 

I play with another guy that only counts pars or better.  He's not kidding himself.  He has fun and he won't tell you a score other than 4 pars and 1 birdie.  The rest are x. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by LeoLeo99

[ScottF]

People who write down lower scores don’t like reporting to anyone they shot a 95. It’s more impressive if they say 85. In their mind, penalties don’t really count. They “could have” shot 85 except for penalties, and missed short putts. Guys I used to know, were very generous to themselves with gimmees. 

[North Butte]

9 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

People do this. One group i rarely play with this.  We were in a tough hole and we all slapped it around.  I don't even think they finished the hole.  I declare my score of 6. The score keeper says that "we're all taking 5s.".  Um, ok.  We add them up at the end and the guy says he shot 79. I'm not sure he broke 100. I raised my eyebrow a little and his friend quietly told me that this guy gets upset if he doesn't break 80. Um, ok.  Nice guy.  

 

I play with another guy that only counts pars or better.  He's not kidding himself.  He has fun and he won't tell you a score other than 4 pars and 1 birdie.  The rest are x. 

The guys I play with only count bogeys, pars and birdies (or the rare eagle). Anything worse than bogey is an X.

 

For my part, I go ahead and play until I reach net double bogey which means some days my score is a couple strokes worse than if I'd stopped at double. I figure there's no need to deflate my handicap index by maybe a stroke or so unnecessarily. But not many of us do that, most of them just say "Give me a double". 

 

Except for the handicapping implications, I actually like the double-bogey-max-score game. By the time I get to needing a 10-footer for triple I've long since lost interest and can't wait for a fresh start on the next hole. Even less interesting would be watching a couple *other* guys in the group putting for triple or whatever ?

Edited September 3, 2020 by North Butte

[sui generis]

Casual players are just trying to have fun. They haven't a clue about the Rules and don't care. I happen to think that's okay, it's not how my friends and I play, but live and let live. ?

[TourSpoon]

The next time he says he shot 87 say that's awesome, I shot 79! 

[North Butte]

17 minutes ago, sui generis said:

Casual players are just trying to have fun. They haven't a clue about the Rules and don't care. I happen to think that's okay, it's not how my friends and I play, but live and let live. ?

Exactly. Unless he's acting dangerously or tearing up the course there's no harm he can possibly do out there. Just enjoy his company (and don't offer to play him for a beer!). 

[straightshot7]

47 minutes ago, sui generis said:

Casual players are just trying to have fun. They haven't a clue about the Rules and don't care. I happen to think that's okay, it's not how my friends and I play, but live and let live. ?

If they don't care about the rules then why do they care so much about their score...

 

One of the guys I've observed is really serious about his game. He's not very good but he's trying to get better and wants to start keeping a handicap. He wants to break 80 and just spent a lot of money on new equipment. And he deliberately doesn't keep his score correctly (if he gets an 8 he will put down a 6, etc.)

 

I totally agree with you that it's fine and dandy to not care about the rules and just have fun. However, I don't see how that matches up with lying about your score. Not a big deal just fascinating. It's like only in golf do people think it's okay to totally butcher their scores. Everywhere else dishonesty would be considered pretty much universally wrong. 

[drumdude96]

I play in a noon game a few times a week with a bunch of mostly retired guys.  Everybody keeps a pretty accurate score, but we are allowed to play the ball up within a club length of where it stopped, and we treat OB or a lost ball the same as a water hazard.  Just because we have a few local rules that don't exactly fall in line with the "official" rules of golf doesn't mean anybody is cheating.  We have a lot of fun and I think the world of those guys.  That's what it is all about.

[cardoustie]

You can tell at cluB C time who keeps real scores and doesn’t take mullies and pick up 4 footers

[North Butte]

1 minute ago, cardoustie said:

You can tell at cluB C time who keeps real scores and doesn’t take mullies and pick up 4 footers

 

Yes, among the 20% of the club who play in the club championship.

 

Most people who play under their own set of Rules steer clear of stroke-play tournament, in my experience. Not a lot of overlap between the two groups.

[cardoustie]

True

 

my brothers old boss was this way ... “I can’t believe you only beat me by 6“

 

this clown would shoot 98ish and somehow he was always 81-84 ... he had to have the scorecard and was an accountant
 

golfers love to tell others what they shoot is my best guess for this creative counting

[caniac6]

Is it possible that your friend doesn’t know the rules?

[oikos1]

3 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

I'm truly perplexed by this. For example:

 

Recently I played with a friend who is not really a hardcore golfer (he played college baseball) but he has started to take the game pretty seriously the past couple of years. He plays casually 1-2 times per week.

 

When we were sharing a cart, he hit a tee shot dead right. It was so far right it didn't actually go very far. He drove up and dropped about 75 yards ahead of where the ball actually entered the OB. I didn't say anything about this or the fact that he should have hit another one from the tee, because this is just a fun round. Well he proceeds to hit it short of the green, then pitch onto the green and two putt. So even if he used the "local rule" of dropping by the OB line, it would have been a 7. He proceeds to put down a 5 on the scorecard.

 

So basically he dropped and added no penalty strokes, as if his drive had gone there in the first place. Lol. 

 

He did this a couple of other times in the round: realistically had a 7 or 8 but put himself down for a 5.

 

I just don't understand this. Obviously it involves some kind of ego but how can he take himself seriously? He likes to say that he shoots 85. Deep down he must know that his "85" is actually more like a 90 or 95.

 

Also, this guy happens to be one of the most honorable and good people I know, outside of golf.

 

I know another guy like this also. He improves his lies and doesn't count all of his strokes, but at the end of the round always declares a precise score. He realistically shoots about 95 or 100 but says he shot 86 or 87. And he likes to say that he will break 80 soon. 

 

Personally I don't ever declare a score unless it's real. If I have a bad hole or two I'll just stop keeping score, if anything. I don't keep a handicap. But I just don't see the point in faking a score in a casual round.

 

I don't really call either one of these guys out on it, but it gets a little annoying when they talk about their scores. I did say to my friend the other day, "Wow, you gave yourself a 5 on that one?" and laughed, trying to imply how ridiculous it is but without being mean. 

 

Is this some type of mental condition? Why do people do this? 

 

"Is this some type of mental condition? Why do people do this? "

 

Lol.  I would also propose you definitely don't want to delve into personal beliefs and values, religion or politics either.  As long as it's a "casual" round, who cares? 

[straightshot7]

3 hours ago, drumdude96 said:

I play in a noon game a few times a week with a bunch of mostly retired guys.  Everybody keeps a pretty accurate score, but we are allowed to play the ball up within a club length of where it stopped, and we treat OB or a lost ball the same as a water hazard.  Just because we have a few local rules that don't exactly fall in line with the "official" rules of golf doesn't mean anybody is cheating.  We have a lot of fun and I think the world of those guys.  That's what it is all about.

That's great because you and your group have agreed to that set of rules and no one violates them. 

 

If one of your playing partners clearly had an 8 but he wrote down 5 on the scorecard, you'd probably be perplexed by that. That's what I'm referring to.

 

I'm not saying everyone needs to follow the official rules perfectly. I'm questioning why some people blatantly write down a lower score than they actually had. 

[straightshot7]

1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

 

"Is this some type of mental condition? Why do people do this? "

 

Lol.  I would also propose you definitely don't want to delve into personal beliefs and values, religion or politics either.  As long as it's a "casual" round, who cares? 

Well when you play with someone and you watch them make 8's and 9's and write down 5 on the scorecard it's just a little weird. I'm not saying it's a big deal but imagine if this happened over and over. At some point you wouldn't think, hmmm...what's the deal here? ?

 

I understand the correct answer is probably "don't play with that person anymore" and I do agree with that advice. 

 

I think it bothered me because two of these guys are people that I respect. One of them I kind of looked up to in a moral sense. He lives probably the most moral life of anyone I know, and here he is writing down lower scores than he knows he actually got. It kind of made me wonder if inconsistencies/dishonesty exist anywhere else in his life?

 

Then the other guy is someone I am in business with. If he is willing to write down wrong scores in golf, what else is he willing to fudge?

I don't know man. Not a big deal but also not nothing.

Edited September 4, 2020 by straightshot7

[Sanfran328]

I absolutely understand your question, because I was dealing with the same problem with my regular partner of the last 3 years. We met on the course and had a lot in common, so we played together most weekends. He’s a nice guy, a fairly good golfer, has been playing a long time, keeps meticulous notes on his scorecard about putts,, etc. But he improves his lie on every single shot, always moving his ball closer to the green or clear of obstacles. He never has a bad lie. I’m fairly sure he doesn’t count penalty strokes when OB or in a hazard, or post his bad rounds.

 

When we first started playing together, I told myself it didn’t matter, we each just play our own game. I asked him why he didn’t play by the rules, he was too good a golfer not to, and his reply was that he just wanted to have the most fun. Fair enough, but his score was always important to him. 

 

The final straw, which led to me not playing much with him anymore, occurred as we walked onto the green after hitting our approaches. We were all fixing our ball marks and reading our lines, when I noticed that his ball had somehow moved from the fringe to on the green. He made the putt for his “birdie”. After that round, I decided I needed to find new golf partners.

 

I think that with him, and probably many others, it’s a matter of trying too hard to impress other people. 

[straightshot7]

2 minutes ago, Sanfran328 said:

I absolutely understand your question, because I was dealing with the same problem with my regular partner of the last 3 years. We met on the course and had a lot in common, so we played together most weekends. He’s a nice guy, a fairly good golfer, has been playing a long time, keeps meticulous notes on his scorecard about putts,, etc. But he improves his lie on every single shot, always moving his ball closer to the green or clear of obstacles. He never has a bad lie. I’m fairly sure he doesn’t count penalty strokes when OB or in a hazard, or post his bad rounds.

 

When we first started playing together, I told myself it didn’t matter, we each just play our own game. I asked him why he didn’t play by the rules, he was too good a golfer not to, and his reply was that he just wanted to have the most fun. Fair enough, but his score was always important to him. 

 

The final straw, which led to me not playing much with him anymore, occurred as we walked onto the green after hitting our approaches. We were all fixing our ball marks and reading our lines, when I noticed that his ball had somehow moved from the fringe to on the green. He made the putt for his “birdie”. After that round, I decided I needed to find new golf partners.

 

I think that with him, and probably many others, it’s a matter of trying too hard to impress other people. 

Exactly. 

At some point it becomes awkward. When they want to tell you about their score you are conflicted because you have to just pretend to go along with them or you have to tell the truth and question their scores.

 

I guess the only answer is simply do not play with them and only play with people that play the same way that you do.

 

One of my friends plays the exact same way you described and he always asks me to play golf. I have a hard time saying no but I will learn to. 

[Haloha]

Years ago, I didn't understand all the rules even though I've played many years of golf, some of my friends would get upset if I treated an OB like a hazard (now if some of my hack friends did that I would approve it just because it would speed up the game, lol) and my son hated it when I took a 3 foot gimme.  So I just think some people don't know or care about the rules and I only know most of the rules (not all) because I played some small local tournaments and went out of the way to learn the rules.  

The bottom line is that I think it depends on the group playing, if there is money involved, if its a tournament, or its just a fun round with guys who don't care.  

Btw, I always putt out every hole now because I can hear my son, lol.

[2bGood]

Why do people make their own rules and write down scores? Because they are in the majority of golfers. Golfers that play by the letter of the RoG are actually pretty rare and are small percentage of the golfing population. Most golfers have only a vague sense of the rules and/or have made up their own rules. It seems to work for them, so I shrug it off as these golfer aren't in any type of competition. Some of them graduate from casual golf to play more seriously and they have a rude awakening about their actual skill level. 

 

[antip]

5 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

If they don't care about the rules then why do they care so much about their score...

 

One of the guys I've observed is really serious about his game. He's not very good but he's trying to get better and wants to start keeping a handicap. He wants to break 80 and just spent a lot of money on new equipment. And he deliberately doesn't keep his score correctly (if he gets an 8 he will put down a 6, etc.)

 

I totally agree with you that it's fine and dandy to not care about the rules and just have fun. However, I don't see how that matches up with lying about your score. Not a big deal just fascinating. It's like only in golf do people think it's okay to totally butcher their scores. Everywhere else dishonesty would be considered pretty much universally wrong. 

If they don't care about the rules then why do they care so much about their score...

 

Amen to that brother, they are conflicted sentiments. If they are posting scores, then it will produce a vanity handicap if the posted number is below the highest number that would count for handicap purposes (NDB).

 

[antip]

22 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Why do people make their own rules and write down scores? Because they are in the majority of golfers. Golfers that play by the letter of the RoG are actually pretty rare and are small percentage of the golfing population. Most golfers have only a vague sense of the rules and/or have made up their own rules. It seems to work for them, so I shrug it off as these golfer aren't in any type of competition. Some of them graduate from casual golf to play more seriously and they have a rude awakening about their actual skill level. 

 

Happily, the reverse is the case on this continent (Australia), virtually all cards are in organised club competitions played to the Rules, exceptions rare. Ditto for our Kiwi cousins.

[straightshot7]

1 hour ago, Haloha said:

Years ago, I didn't understand all the rules even though I've played many years of golf, some of my friends would get upset if I treated an OB like a hazard (now if some of my hack friends did that I would approve it just because it would speed up the game, lol) and my son hated it when I took a 3 foot gimme.  So I just think some people don't know or care about the rules and I only know most of the rules (not all) because I played some small local tournaments and went out of the way to learn the rules.  

The bottom line is that I think it depends on the group playing, if there is money involved, if its a tournament, or its just a fun round with guys who don't care.  

Btw, I always putt out every hole now because I can hear my son, lol.

 

I'm not referring to ignorance of the rules. I'm referring to knowing you had an 8 but declaring a 5 on the score card. 

[straightshot7]

26 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Why do people make their own rules and write down scores? Because they are in the majority of golfers. Golfers that play by the letter of the RoG are actually pretty rare and are small percentage of the golfing population. Most golfers have only a vague sense of the rules and/or have made up their own rules. It seems to work for them, so I shrug it off as these golfer aren't in any type of competition. Some of them graduate from casual golf to play more seriously and they have a rude awakening about their actual skill level. 

 

Again, not referring to ignorance of the rules. I'm referring to people who knowingly write down a lower score than they actually had. 

 

"The majority of people do it" is not a valid excuse. .. .  

 

Why can't we just accept that deliberately claiming a lower score is a character defect/mistake?

[Deceptively Short]

Surely everyone with a vanity handicap is by definition a cheat.

A definition of a cheat is someone who writes down a lower score than they actually achieved. In order to be maintain a vanity handicap you have had to cheat on multiple occasions. 
Under our, CONGU, system vanity handicaps do not exist but I hear on this forum they are of no concern as ‘they are only cheating themselves’. Perhaps they are more dangerous than people think if you can’t spot them cheating.

[North Butte]

5 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

Well when you play with someone and you watch them make 8's and 9's and write down 5 on the scorecard it's just a little weird. I'm not saying it's a big deal but imagine if this happened over and over. At some point you wouldn't think, hmmm...what's the deal here? ?

 

I understand the correct answer is probably "don't play with that person anymore" and I do agree with that advice. 

 

I think it bothered me because two of these guys are people that I respect. One of them I kind of looked up to in a moral sense. He lives probably the most moral life of anyone I know, and here he is writing down lower scores than he knows he actually got. It kind of made me wonder if inconsistencies/dishonesty exist anywhere else in his life?

 

Then the other guy is someone I am in business with. If he is willing to write down wrong scores in golf, what else is he willing to fudge?

I don't know man. Not a big deal but also not nothing.

Again I ask, were you competing with them?

 

If not, then you are making (IMHO) a very big mistake drawing conclusions about "moral sense" or honesty in business dealings from the fact these guys are out there playing their own version of golf that isn't the same as the one you prefer. 

 

I have been paired up with plenty of people who behave just like those guys on the golf course. Heck I've been paired up with people who literally will not hit a ball from the rough, they give themselves a perfect lie on every single shot. And some of them "keep score" and write down 4's and 5's on every hole. So what? In fact, if they are really awful players I'd just as soon they do that and keep moving along rather than hacking it around for 5 hours!