Why Do People Cheat (In Casual Rounds)?

[North Butte]

2 hours ago, Deceptively Short said:

Surely everyone with a vanity handicap is by definition a cheat.

A definition of a cheat is someone who writes down a lower score than they actually achieved. In order to be maintain a vanity handicap you have had to cheat on multiple occasions. 
Under our, CONGU, system vanity handicaps do not exist but I hear on this forum they are of no concern as ‘they are only cheating themselves’. Perhaps they are more dangerous than people think if you can’t spot them cheating.

For starters, guys like OP is describing almost never have a USGA handicap. Unlike the UK, having an official handicap isn't nearly as universal in USA. I would venture a guess that the proportion of "Casual Golfers" (i.e. those who don't belong to a club, don't have a handicap, don't care about the Rules) is far higher in USA than UK. Among Casual Golfers by far the most popular type of organized event is the "Scramble" which is a hit-and-giggle format where nobody plays their own ball down and there's all sort of additional "mulligans", "buying a piece of string" and so far to take the game even farther from anything you'd identify as "Golf". 

 

As for vanity handicaps, again if you play 99% of your golf in daily games among guys who roll the ball, pick up two-footers, stop at double-bogey and generally give themselves several stroke better scores than they would have under strict Rules of Golf then they aren't "cheating" themselves or anyone else. It's their agreed upon game. GHIN is a perfectly adequate way for those groups to keep handicaps. It certainly beats someone having to keep a notebook and compute within-group handicaps every week!

 

It's the USGA's choice to sell handicaps to the literally millions of golfers like I'm describing. It's too big a market for them to ignore. It's unfortunate IMO that GHIN doesn't have some way of separating or at least designating which handicap are actually maintained by the Rules of Golf. And it's downright dishonest (if we want to talk cheating) for USGA and R&A to pretend that they have now consolidated GHIN and CONGU by the magic of rejiggering a few formulas in the computations. 

[jomatty]

If we are not playing for money it has never bothered me.  The people I know who do this sort of thing don’t keep a handicap or play any tournaments, so I don’t really care.  That said, I do find it odd...

[Hateto3Putt]

What's the old saying?

 

Yell Fore, shoot six, write five....

 

I would say 98% of my rounds are money games, whether they're an accountant or not, I keep a card. I have a pretty good idea what everyone is doing on a hole.

 

If they state a questionable number on the next tee, I'll "help" them recount/replay. Usually the poor mathematicians will self correct themselves when audited. And once aware will *usually* keep things straight after then..

 

Truthfully, most of my regular guys never have an issue. We all trust one another and will record a 9 if that's what happens...

 

In casual rounds with clients, or hit and giggle folks, I'll just say, "good par".

[Sean2]

If a person isn't posting a score for handicap purposes, I don't see the harm. However, if he ever plays in a tournament he will be in for a real eye opener, lol. 

[North Butte]

A buddy of mine learned the game (as an adult) from his older brother. This brother kept score somewhat like the guys in the original post of this thread. A year or so later my buddy joined an after work group to play once a week and had the "eye opener". I think his first round with the group who really kept score he shot 120-something and that was the first time he'd ever realized he wasn't "scoring" in the 90's. 

 

But he says if he'd tried to play it down and putt it out and count everything when he was starting out he'd have probably quit after two or three rounds. By the time he learned how to keep score he was thoroughly hooked on the game, so it all worked out for him I guess?

[Hawkeye77]

People "fool themselves" in all sorts of pursuits - they probably aren't going to change, and it won't make sense to you, so the "but why" is understandable but futile.

 

I don't get it at all, but like most who are responding, if that's the way someone wants to play, then let 'em. If it bugs you too much then just don't play with him, or maybe sometime a nice, "hey, want to try a round under ROG?"  Would be hilarious if the answer is "don't we always?", but who knows where it might lead for his golf. 

 

 

 

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

43 minutes ago, North Butte said:

A buddy of mine learned the game (as an adult) from his older brother. This brother kept score somewhat like the guys in the original post of this thread. A year or so later my buddy joined an after work group to play once a week and had the "eye opener". I think his first round with the group who really kept score he shot 120-something and that was the first time he'd ever realized he wasn't "scoring" in the 90's. 

 

But he says if he'd tried to play it down and putt it out and count everything when he was starting out he'd have probably quit after two or three rounds. By the time he learned how to keep score he was thoroughly hooked on the game, so it all worked out for him I guess?

When my wife first started playing she had her own rules -- she would move a ball or replace a ball without taking a penalty, mulligans etc. I'd advise her on how to play a particular situation by the rules but told her do it how she wants.  When she played with her girlfriends they played the same rules.  It didn't matter because there was no competition, it was about having fun.  The only rule they strictly adhered to was to play Ready Golf--- which if you ask me is the most important rule when not in competition.  

 

Fast forward years later and now she knows the rules and can play by them.  So yes it all worked out despite initially not following the rules. ?

[jol]

Personally, I only care if I play with the person (s) on a regular basis for $. If their handicap is way off, then I don't play with them for $ again.
All other times, I could care less what they do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

14 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

I'm truly perplexed by this. For example:

 

Recently I played with a friend who is not really a hardcore golfer (he played college baseball) but he has started to take the game pretty seriously the past couple of years. He plays casually 1-2 times per week.

 

When we were sharing a cart, he hit a tee shot dead right. It was so far right it didn't actually go very far. He drove up and dropped about 75 yards ahead of where the ball actually entered the OB. I didn't say anything about this or the fact that he should have hit another one from the tee, because this is just a fun round. Well he proceeds to hit it short of the green, then pitch onto the green and two putt. So even if he used the "local rule" of dropping by the OB line, it would have been a 7. He proceeds to put down a 5 on the scorecard.

 

So basically he dropped and added no penalty strokes, as if his drive had gone there in the first place. Lol. 

 

He did this a couple of other times in the round: realistically had a 7 or 8 but put himself down for a 5.

 

I just don't understand this. Obviously it involves some kind of ego but how can he take himself seriously? He likes to say that he shoots 85. Deep down he must know that his "85" is actually more like a 90 or 95.

 

Also, this guy happens to be one of the most honorable and good people I know, outside of golf.

 

I know another guy like this also. He improves his lies and doesn't count all of his strokes, but at the end of the round always declares a precise score. He realistically shoots about 95 or 100 but says he shot 86 or 87. And he likes to say that he will break 80 soon. 

 

Personally I don't ever declare a score unless it's real. If I have a bad hole or two I'll just stop keeping score, if anything. I don't keep a handicap. But I just don't see the point in faking a score in a casual round.

 

I don't really call either one of these guys out on it, but it gets a little annoying when they talk about their scores. I did say to my friend the other day, "Wow, you gave yourself a 5 on that one?" and laughed, trying to imply how ridiculous it is but without being mean. 

 

Is this some type of mental condition? Why do people do this? 

As for your friend in your first example, did you offer to at least explain to him how to play that lost ball by the rules? Maybe he doesn't know the proper way.  If you attempted to educate him he'd be informed and would be in better position to play by the rules as his golfing experience grows.

[david.c.w]

I find that these folks land into 2 categories:

1.  Those that don't know what they are doing

2.  Those that are fibbing themselves to make themselves feel better.

 

Perhaps you could call #2 a "mental condition", but that is a little strong. 

 

At the end of the day, as long as they are not collecting your or someone else's money, I find little harm.  If anything, I prefer the #2 guys as their handicaps are a lot lower so when I do play with them, I get a few extra pops and get to drink a few free beers after the round.  The #2 type is likely more common than you think outside of golf or even sport.  Every time the story gets told the fish was a little bigger, the deal was a little more, the girl was a little hotter, the crowd was a little bigger...

 

Not exactly A+ standup integrity, but as long as no one else besides themselves is getting hurt, damaged or losing $$$, there is little harm.

 

 

[sdiver68]

The only area where there is some fuzziness in casual play with our group is the ball hit OB or lost.  For pace of play reasons we dropped a ball in the rough at the nearest point possible and took 1 stroke. Same with lost ball.

 

I would say the new lost ball rule is unrealistically harsh when the entire group saw the ball go into an area where it should be playable and findable, and would be if we spent the full 5 minutes looking for it. Again, pace of play is deemed more important than looking for 5 mins.

 

During Tourney or Betting rounds, of course we will play a provisional or use the new local 2 stroke rule.

 

 

[2bGood]

12 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

Again, not referring to ignorance of the rules. I'm referring to people who knowingly write down a lower score than they actually had. 

 

"The majority of people do it" is not a valid excuse. .. .  

 

Why can't we just accept that deliberately claiming a lower score is a character defect/mistake?

 

Knowing the rules and caring are two different things.  I can't comment on your buddy, but typically I have not seen it as character flaw - just guys going out and enjoying the day. I have not read the entire thread, but you also choose to play golf by your own set of rules - by stopping keeping score when things go bad. Truth is you don't care, because you don't want to a keep a handicap- that's fine. This does not seem like a character flaw to me, just someone enjoying golf the way you want, others might see it as character flaw that you are unwilling to have score for bad round, and only scores for good rounds. You don't keep handicap, so I don't see why it matters.

 

I happen to play strictly by the rules and keep a handicap as I play in events often and play with other that also play by the rules. I would never dream of abandoning scorekeeping because I was playing poorly. I enjoy golf under these conditions, but I get not everyone does. 

Edited September 4, 2020 by 2bGood

[lefty1978]

If I'm not playing for money, I could care less what you do. You can write down all pars for all I care, because I don't care what you shoot. I won't even look at your scorecard or write down or track your score. If we are playing for money, even as little as $5, I absolutely care. Now its competition, not casual. My opinion anyway.

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

It's a hard pill to swallow, seeing strokes add up so quickly.  It's a pride thing.  I'll be honest, it stung (hard) to play a new course last weekend, and rack up a 60 (!!!) on 9 holes...but, I counted every single penalty shot, and every single lost ball to the best of my knowledge (tee off is 1 stroke, taking a drop is 1 stroke, and then adding a penalty stroke; so all the sudden, I've got 3 strokes just for teeing off into a water hazard).  I'm not a great golfer, but I am better than 24 over, and I know that.

[HatsForBats]

16 hours ago, North Butte said:

Ask your friend why he keeps score, I don't know. Obviously he doesn't want an "accurate, objective measure of his performance". I expect he just wants to play golf for a few hours, it's a fun game no matter how you score it. 

 

 

 

^^^ This

 

The only character flaw I am seeing is wanting to force someone else to keep score the same way or else risk losing the golf 'friendship' and having their character called into question on other aspects of life. That's crazy. If someone wants to count the number of swings they connect with it's no skin off my back. If they want to take 1 to many mulligans I am OK with it if it doesn't mess with the pace of play. Until we are in a competition they can score it however they like. Especially when I enjoy their company.

[davep043]

8 minutes ago, HatsForBats said:

 

^^^ This

 

The only character flaw I am seeing is wanting to force someone else to keep score the same way or else risk losing the golf 'friendship' and having their character called into question on other aspects of life. That's crazy. If someone wants to count the number of swings they connect with it's no skin off my back. If they want to take 1 to many mulligans I am OK with it if it doesn't mess with the pace of play. Until we are in a competition they can score it however they like. Especially when I enjoy their company.

I was thinking the same thing.  Some see the "creative scorekeeping" as a character flaw, some type of mental handicap.  But isn't the insistence that someone abide by the same value system as I do a different kind of character flaw, especially when there's absolutely no impact on anyone?  If I'm betting against someone, I expect them to play by the rules.  If we're just out for fun, and the score isn't going to impact a handicap or anything else, I really don't care.  

[North Butte]

As an adult beginner, I had two different well-intentioned older golfers advise me on the Real Meaning Of Golf. Their advice was slight variations on this theme. "There is only one way to play Golf and that's by the Rules, playing it down and putting it out on every hole. Otherwise you're never going to be a Real Golfer and you'll be cheating yourself and others". And they were quite serious, although I will say it sounded to me more like instruction to a child than to a 30-something year old grownup. 

 

Fortunately, after a few months I sussed out that I needed a little help to figure out how to hit the darned ball. And more fortunately, the teaching pro I picked (who I still count as a friend two decades later) gave me totally opposite advice. He told me the game was supposed to be fun. Period. Do whatever makes it fun.

 

He did add, however, that in his opinion one of the most fun things in golf was playing in competitions. Whether betting games or tournaments, for him that's when the game really came alive. So he spent a fair bit of time teaching me the Rules and discussing the various mental hurdles involved when you actually give a darn about your score and want your game to hold up under competitive pressure.

 

In the end, I found my way into groups who mostly kinda sorta keep to something pretty close to the Rules. But typically score limited formats that don't involve playing your fourth ball out and grinding over a 3-foot putt for a 12 on a Par 4 (like you would in a medal competition). Golf's a big tent, there's room for all kinds. On a scale where a USGA Rules Official at the US Open is a 10 and the guys in OP's opening post are a 1, my comfort zone is probably somewhere in the 7's or 8's. 

[cardoustie]

My favorite story on here was the guy who had a brother in law that thought given putts were not counted as a stroke so he said he was a low 80’s shooter but really he was a 100 guy

 

mind blowing I know ....

 

But it happened to me as well in a match about 15 years back, I’m giving a guy putts for bogey as I am making par’s and this guy has the match 1 down after 6 holes and I am actually 5 up .. he was shocked when I explained a given putt counted as a shot

 

He was so flummoxed he quit and went home to watch The Open

[farmer]

12 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

Well when you play with someone and you watch them make 8's and 9's and write down 5 on the scorecard it's just a little weird. I'm not saying it's a big deal but imagine if this happened over and over. At some point you wouldn't think, hmmm...what's the deal here? ?

 

I understand the correct answer is probably "don't play with that person anymore" and I do agree with that advice. 

 

I think it bothered me because two of these guys are people that I respect. One of them I kind of looked up to in a moral sense. He lives probably the most moral life of anyone I know, and here he is writing down lower scores than he knows he actually got. It kind of made me wonder if inconsistencies/dishonesty exist anywhere else in his life?

 

Then the other guy is someone I am in business with. If he is willing to write down wrong scores in golf, what else is he willing to fudge?

I don't know man. Not a big deal but also not nothing.

I know a guy who was a pillar of the church, didn't drink, smoke, would never cheat on his wife, did good things for people, all around the best person you ever knew, but .... if you did business with him, you needed two accountants and have a lawyer on retainer.  He put two local businesses out of business by not paying what he owed them.  Men like this and your friend must separate their lives into separate categories, one being anything goes, the other being never anything going.

[2bGood]

9 hours ago, cardoustie said:

My favorite story on here was the guy who had a brother in law that thought given putts were not counted as a stroke so he said he was a low 80’s shooter but really he was a 100 guy

 

mind blowing I know ....

 

But it happened to me as well in a match about 15 years back, I’m giving a guy putts for bogey as I am making par’s and this guy has the match 1 down after 6 holes and I am actually 5 up .. he was shocked when I explained a given putt counted as a shot

 

He was so flummoxed he quit and went home to watch The Open

 That is MY story - glad someone remembers it! I still love telling it.

 

It is little better than that,  here is the short version (I wont re-tell the whole store as I posted it on the wrx a few times). He claimed for years he was a near scratch low 70's golfer but we did not live in the same town so I never golfed with him. When I took up the game I used to call him for advice all the time, given how good he was. One day it worked out he would be in town and was going to join my buddies and I for a golf weekend trip. I was about an 18 cap at the time and my buddies were about the same, so we were a bit intimidated to playing with such good player.

 

I played a round with him at a pitch and putt for fun before the trip started and found out after a few holes he played unlimited mulligans, and took 4+ foot gimmees, BUT given putts did not count as a stroke! Wow, just wow. I let him know that we play by the RoG and he would have to count everything on the trip. In the three rounds we played he did not break 110 once. The astonishing part is he actually thought he was a good golfer. He played with the same guys all the time and they all played the same VERY generous rules. 

 

Okay I guess that was not the short version, but I love telling the story so much. 

Edited September 5, 2020 by 2bGood

[BlkNGld]

Someone I play with regularly would take liberties... got to where we called them <Last Name> Rules.   My favorite to watch was what I called the Tin Cup Exemption.   Get to a forced carry, lose the ball, reload, repeat until he either makes or runs out of balls in his (cargo shorts) pocket.    Only takes the 'first' penalty stroke.   Or takes 1 stroke for dropping at OB or in a hazard.

 

He's a good guy and plays faster under his rules than if he was a stickler.   He's out to have some fun and hopefully hit a few keepers.  

 

As for 'why keep score then', the way I choose to view it is that as long as he's consistent in how he's applying his rules, even if flawed, it's still possible to track improvement relative to his own scores.   Again, as long as it's not adversely affecting my game, I choose to not let it bother me.  He's aware that I'll write down whatever number he tells me but once the smack talk starts that's gonna change.

 

Since then he's signed up and trying to establish a hcp, and he isn't taking nearly as many liberties.

[chippa13]

If it is a casual round with nothing on the line then who cares what rules someone else doesn't follow or what they put down for their score? Most folks would be a lot happier if they stopped worrying so much about what everyone else is doing.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

4 hours ago, chippa13 said:

If it is a casual round with nothing on the line then who cares what rules someone else doesn't follow or what they put down for their score? Most folks would be a lot happier if they stopped worrying so much about what everyone else is doing.

Exactly! The game can be enjoyed without keeping score at all. 

 

[straightshot7]

4 hours ago, chippa13 said:

If it is a casual round with nothing on the line then who cares what rules someone else doesn't follow or what they put down for their score? Most folks would be a lot happier if they stopped worrying so much about what everyone else is doing.

 

Whether someone should care or not is a separate question. You still have to explain why it's all well and good to write down incorrect scores. How is that not strange? Why not just right down the CORRECT score?

 

Also, as I've already said, I sometimes care because those people talk about what they shot and expect you to listen as if you can take them seriously. So yeah, don't play with those people is the answer but unfortunately sometimes it's a good friend. It's not like I care a lot, I was simply asking why people do this. Why write down a lower score. It must be ego/vanity. I just think it is strange that people do it and other people defend it as if it's normal and good. 

[oikos1]

And to really piss some people off, what's the difference between a golfer taking 15 strokes during the course of a casual round verses a 15 handicap claiming they are entitled to 15 strokes? 

 

 

[chippa13]

6 minutes ago, straightshot7 said:

 

Whether someone should care or not is a separate question. You still have to explain why it's all well and good to write down incorrect scores. How is that not strange? Why not just right down the CORRECT score?

 

Also, as I've already said, I sometimes care because those people talk about what they shot and expect you to listen as if you can take them seriously. So yeah, don't play with those people is the answer but unfortunately sometimes it's a good friend. It's not like I care a lot, I was simply asking why people do this. Why write down a lower score. It must be ego/vanity. I just think it is strange that people do it and other people defend it as if it's normal and good. 

Why not play with these people? The fact that this affects you so much says more about you than it does about them.

[naval2006]

I don’t understand this “I don’t keep a score” theory where you shoot 8 and you take down a 5 because you want to enjoy the day. 

[straightshot7]

3 hours ago, chippa13 said:

Why not play with these people? The fact that this affects you so much says more about you than it does about them.

 

It doesn't affect me so much lol

 

Are you one of those people who lies about their scores? Is that why you feel the need to defend this behavior? 

 

I'm just asking why people write down fake scores. I don't think it's that crazy of a question...

 

If it says anything about me it says that I have a strong sense of right and wrong so I feel weird when people LIE about their scores. Gosh I'm a terrible person for feeling uncomfortable when people LIE. ?

Edited September 5, 2020 by straightshot7

[North Butte]

5 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

 

It doesn't affect me so much lol

 

Are you one of those people who lies about their scores? Is that why you feel the need to defend this behavior? 

 

I'm just asking why people write down fake scores. I don't think it's that crazy of a question...

 

If it says anything about me it says that I have a strong sense of right and wrong so I feel weird when people LIE about their scores. Gosh I'm a terrible person for feeling uncomfortable when people LIE. ?

He's not keeping score the same way you do. He does not count certain kinds of shots as part of his score. He doesn't give a darn about *your* Rules of Golf, he makes up his own rules as he goes along and his score is whatever he says it is.

 

Believe it or not, the Rules of Golf are ignored in the vast majority of rounds played every day. So by your reckoning are those millions of golfers all reprehensible pathological liars who shouldn't be trusted in any aspect of their lives because they don't like *your* Rules of Golf? 

[North Butte]

Heck, every single player on the PGA Tour has played rounds under Lift, Clean and Place. I guess somewhere there's a guy complaining that all of them are lying, cheating so-and-so's because they not only wrote down scores but actually cashed checks based on rounds where the Tour made up its own rules. 

 

Can we safely assume the OP, an honorable golfer, has never posted a score where he picked up a "gimme" when not playing match play, rolled the ball out of a divot or taken a free drop away from a tree root?