Why Do People Cheat (In Casual Rounds)?

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

Heck, every single player on the PGA Tour has played rounds under Lift, Clean and Place. I guess somewhere there's a guy complaining that all of them are lying, cheating so-and-so's because they not only wrote down scores but actually cashed checks based on rounds where the Tour made up its own rules. 

 

Can we safely assume the OP, an honorable golfer, has never posted a score where he picked up a "gimme" when not playing match play, rolled the ball out of a divot or taken a free drop away from a tree root? 

 

By his own admission the OP stops keeping score when the round goes badly. This is not a standard action under the RoG, but rather his own modification. Of course his modification is honourable, and others people modification are character flaws. ?

 

 

[chippa13]

8 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

 

It doesn't affect me so much lol

 

Are you one of those people who lies about their scores? Is that why you feel the need to defend this behavior? 

 

I'm just asking why people write down fake scores. I don't think it's that crazy of a question...

 

If it says anything about me it says that I have a strong sense of right and wrong so I feel weird when people LIE about their scores. Gosh I'm a terrible person for feeling uncomfortable when people LIE. ?

I have one friend I golf with sometimes who I'll play a friendly stroke play competition with.  Then a couple of times a year I'll have a match play game with my brother. Those are the only times I'll even pay attention to what someone else is shooting. All others that I play with can do as they please. I don't care or need to know what they shot. If they want to tell me they shot an 18 it won't affect my enjoyment of the round one bit. 

[lchang]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

 

By his own admission the OP stops keeping score when the round goes badly. This is not a standard action under the RoG, but rather his own modification. Of course his modification is honourable, and others people modification are character flaws. ?

 

 

I do not think the OP is a hypocrite for asking the question. 

[oikos1]

On 9/5/2020 at 7:02 AM, 2bGood said:

 

By his own admission the OP stops keeping score when the round goes badly. This is not a standard action under the RoG, but rather his own modification. Of course his modification is honourable, and others people modification are character flaws. ?

 

 

Excellent point! (and a nice catch)  OP's own words, first post:  "If I have a bad hole or two I'll just stop keeping score, if anything."

 

Kind of blows up the entire premise, doesn't it?  The only time keeping score matters is if you keep an official handicap and are required to post or you play a tournament or "local match", at which point rules of golf apply or the agreed upon rules for the match.

 

[manku]

Because stroke play is cruel to all but the best golfers...who wants that!

 

Not sure why adding the total for 18 distinct and separate challenges became the default norm.

 

I "cheat" because I'm not competing (don't gamble) and for some reason, there is always one guy who insists on writing down everyone's score even though you tell him not to...and will ask you 18 times!  This player, btw, is almost always a hacker.  There are times when I've hit into the water, flubbed a chip and taken a second and raked in a 6 footer...on the next tee, he'll ask what I shot!

 

One of my best rounds ever was at PGA Stadium about 20 years ago...I'm a bogey golfer, and that day I had 10 pars (I play by strict ROG for each individual scored hole)...had probably 8 x's on the other holes, and couldn't tell you what I shot.  

 

But I don't make up a number based on fictitious scores...

[Carl Spackler3]

I dont care what you post unless its for money, and i mean for $100 or a dollar.  Then youre on my radar

[Oufcfan]

The best piece of advice I could give to people who don’t like writing their actual score on a hole (6 instead of 8 or whatever) because of being embarrassed by a high number is to just play Stableford. Par 4, scored a 7,8,9,10? Doesn’t matter. It’s a “blob” and just write a dashed line.

 

[4x4GGG]

I thought about this thread yesterday playing a local par 3. I was the last golfer out before a member tourney, and of course stuck behind a REALLY slow 4 some and a pair behind them. Not to rush the pair, since they were sandwiched, I played 2 balls and did some practice around the greens. Of course I only scored my first ball, which doesn't matter because I wasn't competing and can't enter the scores towards my HCP, but I kept a true score anyway. 

 

 We had 14 inches of rain last month and it hasn't stopped. Lots of balls plugging if you miss the green. So, number 5 is 170+ yards. It's slightly down hill with a creek on the left, making even the turf around this hole like a tupee. Like putting wet sod on top of a ball pit. WIth a little wind behind me I went after my 7i. The shot is straight but heading towards the right fringe. Then it bounces. Sky high. 30 feet past the green into the woods. I went 8i with my second ball and landed just short of the green. I checked where my ball landed and there was nothing to suggest a bounce. All the ground was soft. Squishy. That's when I cheated. I walked back to my 2nd ball and  I hit a poor wedge up and 2 putted. I logged a bogey into my watch and walked away, I even got a good nights sleep last night. 

[LPSISCO]

For me, there are two sets of rules....are we playing for money, or are we not? If we are playing for money, we’re playing by the rules. If we aren’t playing for money, I couldn’t possibly care less how many drops you take, or what score you write down on the scorecard. 

[Mudguard]

2 hours ago, LPSISCO said:

For me, there are two sets of rules....are we playing for money, or are we not? If we are playing for money, we’re playing by the rules. If we aren’t playing for money, I couldn’t possibly care less how many drops you take, or what score you write down on the scorecard. 

Depends if they ask me to sign their scorecard at the end. 

[James the Hogan Fan]

My example for those who say by "play by every rule": you and your buddies have a tee time at 12:05. You check in and get to the first tee at 12:00 and there is no one on the first hole all the way up to the green, so you tee off. 

 

Do you assess yourselves a two stroke penalty for teeing off before your starting time? No? Why not? Have you cheated? The rule is pretty clear: "The player must start at (and not before) his or her starting time"

 

So if we say that'd be kinda silly, we admit that that the rules don't always apply to the realities of casual play. And that's a particularly pedantic example.

 

Today I played after a week of moderate to heavy rain. Bunkers washed out. In one such bunker there was a channel eroded into the sand about 3-4 inches wide and and 3-4 inches deep from one side to the other. Had my ball been in that trench, the rules say tough luck. Take an unplayable. In a tournament yeah sure. But would a tournament knowingly allow such a condition to exist on the course? Oakmont maybe, but otherwise I seriously doubt it. (As an aside this is why I prefer Europe's (mostly) tourney-only handicap system; there is some hope of an actual competition committee ensuring something resembling a golf course for you to play on.)

 

The rules assume there is an active committee overseeing play, which is simply not the reality of daily play in many places. In the end the score you make is worth whatever worth you assign it. The debate is not simply black and white. 

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

9 hours ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

My example for those who say by "play by every rule": you and your buddies have a tee time at 12:05. You check in and get to the first tee at 12:00 and there is no one on the first hole all the way up to the green, so you tee off. 

 

Do you assess yourselves a two stroke penalty for teeing off before your starting time? No? Why not? Have you cheated? The rule is pretty clear: "The player must start at (and not before) his or her starting time"

 

So if we say that'd be kinda silly, we admit that that the rules don't always apply to the realities of casual play. And that's a particularly pedantic example.

 

Today I played after a week of moderate to heavy rain. Bunkers washed out. In one such bunker there was a channel eroded into the sand about 3-4 inches wide and and 3-4 inches deep from one side to the other. Had my ball been in that trench, the rules say tough luck. Take an unplayable. In a tournament yeah sure. But would a tournament knowingly allow such a condition to exist on the course? Oakmont maybe, but otherwise I seriously doubt it. (As an aside this is why I prefer Europe's (mostly) tourney-only handicap system; there is some hope of an actual competition committee ensuring something resembling a golf course for you to play on.)

 

The rules assume there is an active committee overseeing play, which is simply not the reality of daily play in many places. In the end the score you make is worth whatever worth you assign it. The debate is not simply black and white. 

What happens when you have a 12:15 tee time and the marshal says "Hey, sneak on out there at 12:00 between a couple of these larger groups"?

[Swashbuckler]

It’s crazy. I see even high school players turn in scorecards dramatically lower than their actual. It’s strange because it’s a competition. It’s typically always newer or poor players. Rarely see good players cheating personally. The scratch groups usually watch closely and play solid, the lower groups seem to turn and look the other way for each other. Haha

[Is Golf Fun or Work]

Casual round, no money on the line...then who cares?

[bcjim]

I think we all know players who seem to want to get better....they practice, they have nice equipment, they take lessons. But they don't keep a handicap and don't even really keep score.  I think its difficult to improve if you don't face the pressure of turning in a score.  And certainly that is the quickest way to improve, by placing legitimate meaning on every shot.  

[MountainKing]

If it's not a tournament and there's no money on the line, who cares?  Let him/her enjoy the game how they want to enjoy it.  

[mshills]

3 hours ago, Is Golf Fun or Work said:

Casual round, no money on the line...then who cares?

This. If we are playing for something, then I pay attention. 
 

If not, I have no clue what you shot. I’m worried about my game, not yours. You do you. 
 

For clarity, I almost always play for something if I know the folks I’m playing with. If I’m a single getting paired up, never. 

[homerrunjesus]

Let them have their fun. If there was something on the line then regulate

[Long_Left]

On 9/5/2020 at 3:28 AM, North Butte said:

He's not keeping score the same way you do. He does not count certain kinds of shots as part of his score. He doesn't give a darn about *your* Rules of Golf, he makes up his own rules as he goes along and his score is whatever he says it is.

 

Believe it or not, the Rules of Golf are ignored in the vast majority of rounds played every day. So by your reckoning are those millions of golfers all reprehensible pathological liars who shouldn't be trusted in any aspect of their lives because they don't like *your* Rules of Golf? 

There is no "your rules of golf" outside of a tournament committee which could certainly be two guys playing on a Thursday and agreeing to play OB as a lateral or play the ball up or whatever, but if I didn't agree to your methods, our performance relative to one another isn't able to be assessed. The issue, in my experience, is the guy who plays by the rules set forth by the tournament committee in his head, who then wants to tell you about how he played in this "tournament." Sitting and listening to some jackwagon tell you he shot 78 when you watched him hit multiple balls off 7 different tees  and drop one of the multiple balls in his pocket a half dozen times is insufferable and is indicative of a character flaw. Ignorance is easily forgiven in golf rules, willful dishonesty because "He does not count certain kinds of shots as part of his score" is just flat pointless and will annoy any honest player if the bad at math guy insists on telling you how great he is.

 

His score is not "whatever he says it is" because reality doesn't work like that and the other guys in your group do not care one single iota about your score unless you're competing, so keep your "score" to yourself or go tell your dog all about your birdie on the 11th (not counting that skinned wedge or the first tee shot that hit a car in the parking lot.)

 

Play by whatever rules and scoring methods you like, just don't add them up at the end and compare yourself to me, because we played different games that day.

[North Butte]

I can't remember the last time I heard someone (in Real Life, not on this forum) brag about a score they shot. The guys I play with all complain. Constantly. 

[Augster]

This thread lied dormant for 2 years. Now it’s back. Same answer as always. 
 

If you’re not competing, why would anyone care what someone else shot? 
 

If someone I’m not competing with slaps it around all day and tells me he shot 62, I say, “Great Round!”

 

 

[kwcsports]

EGO

[cardoustie]

Ego and pro shop certs

[Strategery]

I play regularly with a guy who has not 3-putted in 2 years.

[golfortennis]

I agree with the if we're not playing for something or in a competition, I don't care.  What I do care is when someone decides I should be playing their way, and starts knocking back putts that are missable distances.  Or even worse, when a ball is located in some rough or trouble, they automatically pick the ball up to see if it's mine.  Leave the ball there.  I will identify it.  Grrr.   

 

I try to make the point humorously early in a round-"We're not playing a match, so it's not my putt to give, you can do whatever you please.  Plus I also like to live by the rules I never touch another man's balls."  Seems to get the message across.

[smashdn]

So long as the non-rule-following rounds aren't going down for handicap purposes I see no issue.  On the online handicapping thing I use you can enter those rounds as practice rounds.

[North Butte]

27 minutes ago, smashdn said:

So long as the non-rule-following rounds aren't going down for handicap purposes I see no issue.  On the online handicapping thing I use you can enter those rounds as practice rounds.

Or on GHIN you can just go ahead and enter them for all your scores, ain't like USGA cares one way or another. 

[HoosierHacker89]

My opinion on this has always been the same. I am not competitive about golf with anyone but myself, and I couldn't care less what else anyone else shoots. I almost never play for money and if I do and you need to  cheat to beat me you must need the money more than I do. 

[jc4birdie]

On 9/3/2020 at 11:35 PM, straightshot7 said:

Exactly. 

At some point it becomes awkward. When they want to tell you about their score you are conflicted because you have to just pretend to go along with them or you have to tell the truth and question their scores.

 

I guess the only answer is simply do not play with them and only play with people that play the same way that you do.

 

One of my friends plays the exact same way you described and he always asks me to play golf. I have a hard time saying no but I will learn to. 

I'm at the same point w/ a guy I play w/ semi-regularly.  This phenomenon of cheating FOR a "score" is severe narcissism; he just cannot stand it if someone else plays better than him. 

 

Taking advantageous drops after penalties, giving himself 5 footers for par, laying double and picking up a 7 footer & then giving himself a double, "mulligans" when no one else in the group does that....I'm pretty specific since save the repeated illegal drops, he committed ALL of the other infractions the last time I played w/ him...all in just 9 holes!  Then to insult us all further, he posts these fraudulent scores and preens around bragging about his "39" or "40".

 

I have to quit playing in this group.  I used to just laugh it off and internally tell myself "whatever", but it's so regular and predictable that it affects MY focus on MY game.  My concentration is thrown off b/c in the back of my mind, I know the cheating is coming, and it's just a matter of what form it's gonna take.  It's a shame; I like the others in the group.  But this guy's ego is just apparently BOTH fragile and all-consuming.

[jc4birdie]

On 8/11/2022 at 1:23 PM, North Butte said:

I can't remember the last time I heard someone (in Real Life, not on this forum) brag about a score they shot. The guys I play with all complain. Constantly. 

Then you obviously don't know, nor have met, my guy.  Last time I played with that group, when he threw his bag on and popped himself into the seat, he said to everyone, "how about that up and down from the sand on #9 to break 40?".  Happened 8 days previously...I kid you not.  Of course, no mention of the hole SO unfinished, that from where he picked up, the 6 he gave himself would've, under the rule of an unfinished hole, would've been an 8!