Swingweight vs Gripping Down. From D2 to B3, rant

[joostin]

Gripping / choking down on a club is often done and taught "for better control", usually combined with "taking a little off", 3/4 swings, and around the greens.  One thing I usually see though is that effective swingweight is often dismissed as negligible when choking down, or acknowledged that it changes a little, but it "shouldn't affect you too much".  TXG had a good video called effect of gripping down.

In everyone's favorite pinned thread, we know that cutting a club's length down 1/2" makes the club about 3 SW points lower.  We figure gripping down would be similar, just slightly different because we're not cutting anything off.  So I added it to my Swingweight calculator - attached - to see the numbers.  It's basically if you were able to slide the club past the butt cradle on a SW scale.  Gripping down 1/2" essentially puts the SW scale fulcrum at 14.5" instead of 14" from the butt end.  Some of my clubs came out as follows:



So it's even more of a change than the 3 SWP estimate when cutting down.  My driver is 3.4 SWP lighter per 1/2" and my 60* LW was 4.9 SWP lighter per 1/2".  Personally though I don't think I'm losing much feel gripping down to what has effectively become a super low swingweight club.  So I'm in the camp that it doesn't matter much even with such big SW changes.  At least total weight remains the same.

People swear though that they can't hit a club with any control, or feel the clubhead at a low swingweight, say mid C's.  Sorry to pick on TXG, who I think are fantastic, but in one video on short driver length, Ian said a 43.5" driver (down from 45") would be "unusable" to Matt without adding weight to the head to get back to D5 or so.  Yet in the gripping down video Matt was still hitting driver great while gripping down almost 2".  It would've been in that "unusable" territory, low to mid C's, regardless of his Ping head being heavy and a non counterweighted shaft that Ian commented on.  He was hitting great 330 yd drives with both a 43.5" club at D5 with heavy total weight AND an effectively 43" club maybe at C3 or less with not as heavy total weight.  Of course he's better than most, but you get the point.  That super light SW choked down driver was far from "unusable".

While I'm fully on board with getting clubs built to a science and some kind of SW progression or MOI or MBI targets, I think we can play golf just as well without specs being set in stone.  Don't be scared if a club is below your preferred D2... you're probably already choking down "for better control" at C-something!!!  Heck, gripping down to the bottom of the grip or "to the metal" for delicate chips or for a ball above your feet can get into the A's.  No one's slapping on lead tape before those shots.  Swingweight/MOI/MBI for relative consistency from club to club in a set makes all the sense in the world, but I think once you play golf it's kind of out the door.  End of rant.

We're generally good at adapting to different weights and situations.  Shawn Clement (WRXers seem to hate the poor guy's videos) calls people "gravity geniuses".  We can judge without thinking how much force we need to shoot a basketball to a 10 ft hoop, but also toss a crumpled up paper ball to a trash can ... judge how hard to hit a 100 yd wedge, but also a choked down 20 yd wedge ... sometimes ?

Swingweight_Torque_Calculator_20200905.xlsx

[Stuart_G]

14 hours ago, joostin said:

One thing I usually see though is that effective swingweight is often dismissed as negligible when choking down, or acknowledged that it changes a little, but it "shouldn't affect you too much". 

 

 

Don't take this the wrong way.  I have nothing against the post or the  topic or what you're trying to share.   But where did you get that idea?    I've don't think I've ever seen anyone here in the forum who thought that, at least not in the tech section.    And when someone who doesn't know any better does come around and post that idea, they are set straight pretty quickly.

 

 

As for the rest, all I will say is be careful about making assumptions based on so few data points or unrealistic tests.  

 

First of all, it's pretty well known and documented that different individuals have different sensitivities to different club specs or that some people can compensate to certain equipment changes better than others.   The better the player, the more likely they will be able to adjust w/o too much trouble.  But that doesn't mean anyone can adjust to any change.    Just one example is that with me, it's true that choking up 1/2" or even a full 1" and going to a lighter swing weight doesn't bother me all much.  But that doesn't mean I can ignore the spec or that it isn't important.  If I end up with a build where the SW is even a couple points too than what's ideal, then that will cause lots of problems and there is no adjusting without noticable consequences to distance, accuracy and control.

 

Second, there is a flaw in the way a lot of that data is collected that most good fitters understand.  in a relaxed session, hitting multiple balls in succession playing around on a LM or even on the range is much easier to groove a swing or adjust to equipment then it is when you on the course, under pressure and only have one swing to get the job done.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Adam C]

May want to watch this. I did all of it on a SW scale with a shaft that I rigged up to measure approximation of gripping down and then actually cut it and measured again. Gripping down resulted in less SW change than cutting slightly.

 

[bnperrone]

For me personally, if I'm gripping down then I'm probably hitting a lower less than full shot. If I have a club that's a light SW for me it shallows out my delivery to the ball. So, if I'm trying to hit that shorter knock-down, the lighter SW effect is beneficial. To each their own, but that's my take on it. Also, before I tried to learn more about SW I never even considered it, so maybe ignorance is bliss.

[jomatty]

Choking up has to affect it somewhat less right? The shaft is still on the end and still weighs something creating at least some counter balance. At least it seems that way. I’ve cut down a driver and had very hard time controlling it until I added lead tape. I choke Clubs every round and have not had issues

[joostin]

11 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Don't take this the wrong way.  I have nothing against the post or the  topic or what you're trying to share.   But where did you get that idea?    I've don't think I've ever seen anyone here in the forum who thought that, at least not in the tech section.    And when someone who doesn't know any better does come around and post that idea, they are set straight pretty quickly.

 

 

As for the rest, all I will say is be careful about making assumptions based on so few data points or unrealistic tests.  

 

First of all, it's pretty well known and documented that different individuals have different sensitivities to different club specs or that some people can compensate to certain equipment changes better than others.   The better the player, the more likely they will be able to adjust w/o too much trouble.  But that doesn't mean anyone can adjust to any change.    Just one example is that with me, it's true that choking up 1/2" or even a full 1" and going to a lighter swing weight doesn't bother me all much.  But that doesn't mean I can ignore the spec or that it isn't important.  If I end up with a build where the SW is even a couple points too than what's ideal, then that will cause lots of problems and there is no adjusting without noticable consequences to distance, accuracy and control.

 

Second, there is a flaw in the way a lot of that data is collected that most good fitters understand.  in a relaxed session, hitting multiple balls in succession playing around on a LM or even on the range is much easier to groove a swing or adjust to equipment then it is when you on the course, under pressure and only have one swing to get the job done.

 

 

First, I highly regard your expertise in this forum, and don't mean any disrespect, but you had mentioned that the difference in effective SW will be "negligible for most" in this thread where the OP asked about choking down 1/2" (If I understand correctly it's in regards to a person's feel, which I would agree):

I've heard "shouldn't affect you too much" from an old golf coach and the first time I got fit for a driver many years ago when I used to choke down almost all the time.  At the time I thought I had a set SW number because that's what I was told about the driver I had, so when asking them about SW it was "don't worry you're fine".  So it's a topic of personal interest.  Later on I saw Lee Trivino's advice not to choke down re Anthony Kim, and strayed away from it a bit.  My post was prompted by TXG's "unusable" comment and a guy I played with recently. Yes, it was very few swings, and better players are more able to adjust to equipment on hand especially with multiple swings in succession. I'm not a great golfer, but that probably applies to me too being comfortable with SWs kind of all over the place.  The guy I mention was chatting about how he always specs D1 as if it was set in stone regardless of club or brand... and was really keen on iron covers over his shiny AP2s, hehe.  So that was also in mind for the post.  YMMV of course, and D1 on one club will feel different than D1 on another.  I apologize if I came across as dismissing specs.  I just wanted to get across that we swing various effective SWs in normal play.

[Ri_Redneck]

I find that people are far more affected by total weight than SW. SW is strictly a measurement. I can play just as well with a set of steel shafted irons at D-0 as I can with my graphite shafted irons which are D-6.  The steel shafted ones weigh very close to the same as my Graphite shafted one with heavier heads.

 

BT

Edited September 6, 2020 by Ri_Redneck

[joostin]

5 hours ago, Adam C said:

May want to watch this. I did all of it on a SW scale with a shaft that I rigged up to measure approximation of gripping down and then actually cut it and measured again. Gripping down resulted in less SW change than cutting slightly.

 

Good stuff.  We got similar numbers, though it was a slightly bigger change when gripping down.  Won't be noticeable possibly other than grip size.

 

[joostin]

1 hour ago, bnperrone said:

For me personally, if I'm gripping down then I'm probably hitting a lower less than full shot. If I have a club that's a light SW for me it shallows out my delivery to the ball. So, if I'm trying to hit that shorter knock-down, the lighter SW effect is beneficial. To each their own, but that's my take on it. Also, before I tried to learn more about SW I never even considered it, so maybe ignorance is bliss.

Definitely how it affects our swing dynamics is key.  Ignorance on SW was bliss for me too.  Even now I prefer to adjust by feel, but then have to enter specs in spreadsheets because I'm a nerd ? 

Edited September 6, 2020 by joostin

[bnperrone]

3 minutes ago, joostin said:

Definitely how it affects our swing dynamics is key.  Ignorance on SW was bliss for me too.  Even now I prefer to adjust by feel, but then have to enter specs in spreadsheets because I'm a nerd ? 

Yeah, I've made several spreadsheets after going down the rabbit hole as well! You should've seen everything I put together when I chased an MOI-type build. It's part of having research-heavy graduate degrees but not really utilizing it in my career. I suppose I need that outlet somewhere!

 

What I've found through feel and data is that I have a swingweight "window" rather than an ideal. I can't go below or above a certain point, but within that range it's all fine. Irons, wedges, and woods each have a different window for me.

 

Last but not least, the OP needs to consider that the total weight of the club has not changed by gripping down. The balance changes, yes, but at the end of they day you're still swinging the same total weight.

 

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, joostin said:

First, I highly regard your expertise in this forum, and don't mean any disrespect, but you had mentioned that the difference in effective SW will be "negligible for most" in this thread where the OP asked about choking down 1/2" (If I understand correctly it's in regards to a person's feel, which I would agree):

 

That was specifically talking about the difference between choking up vs cutting down.   The effective playing length being exactly the same in both cases.   Not the difference between choking up and not choking up (w/o cutting down).   Basically saying that the little bit of shaft and grip sticking out the other side when choking up isn't' really acting as a noticeable counterbalance.

 

 

 

Quote

I've heard "shouldn't affect you too much" from an old golf coach and the first time I got fit for a driver many years ago when I used to choke down almost all the time.  At the time I thought I had a set SW number because that's what I was told about the driver I had, so when asking them about SW it was "don't worry you're fine".  So it's a topic of personal interest.  Later on I saw Lee Trivino's advice not to choke down re Anthony Kim, and strayed away from it a bit.  My post was prompted by TXG's "unusable" comment and a guy I played with recently. Yes, it was very few swings, and better players are more able to adjust to equipment on hand especially with multiple swings in succession. I'm not a great golfer, but that probably applies to me too being comfortable with SWs kind of all over the place.  The guy I mention was chatting about how he always specs D1 as if it was set in stone regardless of club or brand... and was really keen on iron covers over his shiny AP2s, hehe.  So that was also in mind for the post.  YMMV of course, and D1 on one club will feel different than D1 on another.  I apologize if I came across as dismissing specs.  I just wanted to get across that we swing various effective SWs in normal play.

 

As I said for me, I can choke up 1" or even a little more without any problem but the forum is full of anecdotal evidence on both sides.  e.g. plenty of posts about people who choke up or cut down and their swing falls apart until they add the weight back to the head.   Some people depend more on the weight feel of the head in their swing than others.  Some people can adjust to changes in feel better than others.

 

I guess I just don't see much point in trying to generalize things like this.  Everyone has to find out for themselves what works and what doesn't and how sensitive they might be to different club changes.   That's really the whole point of the fitting process. If we could generalize as much as some people seem to want to or think we should, sure it would make things easier but that's just not the way it is.

 

And "fitting by feel" is the only way to go.   In a perfect ideal world, every club would be fit independently (by feel) and then SW measured independently only to maintain a record and to reproduce that particular club setup, not use that value for any other club.  But of course it would take way too much time so we only use that value across clubs only as an imperfect time saving device - but only in certain contexts:  e.g. the set of irons that all use the exact same shaft model/weight/flex and only increase in length by small increments.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Stuart_G]

13 hours ago, jomatty said:

Choking up has to affect it somewhat less right? The shaft is still on the end and still weighs something creating at least some counter balance. At least it seems that way. I’ve cut down a driver and had very hard time controlling it until I added lead tape. I choke Clubs every round and have not had issues

 

In theory, It really isn't much of a counterbalance.  In fact pretty negligible.  Fitting for swing weight and the swing weight concept was really an early (some might say primitive) attempt to help fitters match the MOI of the club.   And MOI is a second moment ( mass * length squared),  not the first moment (mass * length) which the SW scale measures.   So moving the large head weight closer to the hands that's way out at the end of the club (very big mass and very big length being squared),  is going to be huge compared to the little bit sticking out the other end of your hand (very small weight and very small length being squared).   It also means the swing weight scale is going to be pretty useless in trying to measure the effect.

 

As a side note, that also means that choking up with the driver is going to likely have a bigger effect than choking up the same amount with a mid-iron because of the different playing lengths.

 

But that's just theory.  It can tell us about how the physical properties of the club chagnes but that's woefully incomplete view.  How changes in feel effect the swing for different individuals is going to be by far the most dominant factor and unfortunately is way too complex to try and simplify or even quantify.  Everyone has to figure out what works for them and what doesn't through trial and error testing.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Stuart_G

[Valtiel]

This is an interesting topic that I think firmly intersects feel vs. science. In theory, yes of course you end up with what is effectively a lower swingweight when you choke up, but IMO that should not be "judged" the same way since choking up is also often matched with a different, smoother swing. I look at it like messing with putter weight to compensate for green speed differences. Faster greens require less physical effort to move the ball the same distance, so to approximate a similar feel from a mechanical standpoint, you use a lighter putter which require less effort to move. I look at choking up the same way; a lighter overall feel for a lighter overall swing. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Valtiel

[Stuart_G]

33 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

This is an interesting topic that I think firmly intersects feel vs. science. In theory, yes of course you end up with what is effectively a lower swingweight when you choke up, but IMO that should not be "judged" the same way since choking up is also often matched with a different, smoother swing. I look at it like messing with putter weight to compensate for green speed differences. Faster greens require less physical effort to move the ball the same distance, so to approximate a similar feel from a mechanical standpoint, you use a lighter putter which require less effort to move. I look at choking up the same way; a lighter overall feel for a lighter overall swing. 

 

Unless of course the mindset of the player is centered more around a more fixed amount of muscular effort, in which case a lighter putter ends up making things worse on faster greens ?

 

Yes, the whole idea of how many different ways the changes in feel can influence the swing is a very interesting topic.  Will the individual adjust the swing to maintain a similar feedback feel from the club or will they do the complete opposite to try compensate and maintain the same motion?   And in either case,  how well will they adjust or compensate?  Too much? Not enough?  or just the right amount?   Or maybe they can completely ignore the change in feel?

 

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Stuart_G

[jomatty]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

In theory, It really isn't much of a counterbalance.  In fact pretty negligible.  Fitting for swing weight and the swing weight concept was really an early (some might say primitive) attempt to help fitters match the MOI of the club.   And MOI is a second moment ( mass * length squared),  not the first moment (mass * length) which the SW scale measures.   So moving the large head weight closer to the hands that's way out at the end of the club (very big mass and very big length being squared),  is going to be huge compared to the little bit sticking out the other end of your hand (very small weight and very small length being squared).   It also means the swing weight scale is going to be pretty useless in trying to measure the effect.

 

As a side note, that also means that choking up with the driver is going to likely have a bigger effect than choking up the same amount with a mid-iron because of the different playing lengths.

 

But that's just theory.  It can tell us about how the physical properties of the club chagnes but that's woefully incomplete view.  How changes in feel effect the swing for different individuals is going to be by far the most dominant factor and unfortunately is way too complex to try and simplify or even quantify.  Everyone has to figure out what works for them and what doesn't through trial and error testing.

 

 

That makes sense.  Counterbalance was the only way I could figure that I would struggle with a cut down driver but choke an 8 iron without issue.  Your explanation seems much better...

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Unless of course the mindset of the player is centered more around a more fixed amount of muscular effort, in which case a lighter putter ends up making things worse on faster greens ?

 

Yes, the whole idea of how many different ways the changes in feel can influence the swing is a very interesting topic.  Will the individual adjust the swing to maintain a similar feedback feel from the club or will they do the complete opposite to try compensate and maintain the same motion?   And in either case,  how well will they adjust or compensate?  Too much? Not enough?  or just the right amount?   Or maybe they can completely ignore the change in feel?

 

 

Yeah that is definitely player dependent, no right or wrong for sure. Basically the difference between more feel-based and more mechanics-based approaches, Tiger vs Bryson. ?

[Stuart_G]

3 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Yeah that is definitely player dependent, no right or wrong for sure. Basically the difference between more feel-based and more mechanics-based approaches, Tiger vs Bryson. ?

 

That's certainly one way to describe it.  I like to think of it as body feels vs club feels. Or even internal vs external is commonly used.

 

And to make things more fun, for the full swing (more complex than putter) it's frequently a combination of both fighting with each other.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Stuart_G

[joostin]

6 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

That was specifically talking about the difference between choking up vs cutting down.   The effective playing length being exactly the same in both cases.   Not the difference between choking up and not choking up (w/o cutting down).   Basically saying that the little bit of shaft and grip sticking out the other side when choking up isn't' really acting as a noticeable counterbalance.

 

 

 

 

As I said for me, I can choke up 1" or even a little more without any problem but the forum is full of anecdotal evidence on both sides.  e.g. plenty of posts about people who choke up or cut down and their swing falls apart until they add the weight back to the head.   Some people depend more on the weight feel of the head in their swing than others.  Some people can adjust to changes in feel better than others.

 

I guess I just don't see much point in trying to generalize things like this.  Everyone has to find out for themselves what works and what doesn't and how sensitive they might be to different club changes.   That's really the whole point of the fitting process. If we could generalize as much as some people seem to want to or think we should, sure it would make things easier but that's just not the way it is.

 

And "fitting by feel" is the only way to go.   In a perfect ideal world, every club would be fit independently (by feel) and then SW measured independently only to maintain a record and to reproduce that particular club setup, not use that value for any other club.  But of course it would take way too much time so we only use that value across clubs only as an imperfect time saving device - but only in certain contexts:  e.g. the set of irons that all use the exact same shaft model/weight/flex and only increase in length by small increments.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Got it, sorry I had misunderstood.
You, @Valtiel, and @bnperrone bring up great points. How equipment, swing, biomechanics, feel, and thoughts affect each other is so nuanced and variable.  Certainly that feedback loop is part of what makes golf such a crazy, anecdotal, obsessive game (and makes for interesting forums).  I can obsess over spreadsheets and equations, but it's mostly evidential, not necessarily dictating equipment changes nor helping anyone's game.

We can add psychology to the feel vs. science mix.  If you believe MOI matching is the absolute best for your irons, you can get them perfectly MOI matched, then will yourself to believe it's the best feeling set you've ever swung.  Honeymoon phase with new clubs.  Someone can request their driver be modified from D2 to D3.  You can take it, do nothing but lie and say it's ready.  Then the guy swings it and says "oh, that's much better now".  (Please don't!)  But there can be that placebo effect.

For me, I normally swing driver best with a slow top transition, not quite a Matsuyama pause, with 0 to 1/2" grip down.  Full to cutoff irons and wedges range from full smooth swings to hard transition 9:00 to 3:00 Rahm/Finau type swings, 0 to maybe 1" grip down.  Around the greens it's a free for all.  Equipment wise I've come around to just going by feel/results, and not worrying too much about what people consider rules of thumb (e.g. Maltby promoting heavier swingweight wedges).  SWs and total weights might not always make sense in the spreadsheets.  I'm definitely not as sensitive as others I read on here.  It just needs to make sense on the course at the end of the day.

[chipa]

IMO good players swinging at 80% can swing heavier or lighter swingweights (and even more flexible shafts if they wanted to) because these don't change to any great degree their swing mechanics, after all many if not most pros grip down nowadays with such large gaps between clubs

 

However, for a golfer whose swing is based more on timing than good mechanics then swingweight changes could throw them off.

Edited September 7, 2020 by chipa

[Valtiel]

19 hours ago, joostin said:

Got it, sorry I had misunderstood.
You, @Valtiel, and @bnperrone bring up great points. How equipment, swing, biomechanics, feel, and thoughts affect each other is so nuanced and variable.  Certainly that feedback loop is part of what makes golf such a crazy, anecdotal, obsessive game (and makes for interesting forums).  I can obsess over spreadsheets and equations, but it's mostly evidential, not necessarily dictating equipment changes nor helping anyone's game.

We can add psychology to the feel vs. science mix.  If you believe MOI matching is the absolute best for your irons, you can get them perfectly MOI matched, then will yourself to believe it's the best feeling set you've ever swung.  Honeymoon phase with new clubs.  Someone can request their driver be modified from D2 to D3.  You can take it, do nothing but lie and say it's ready.  Then the guy swings it and says "oh, that's much better now".  (Please don't!)  But there can be that placebo effect.

For me, I normally swing driver best with a slow top transition, not quite a Matsuyama pause, with 0 to 1/2" grip down.  Full to cutoff irons and wedges range from full smooth swings to hard transition 9:00 to 3:00 Rahm/Finau type swings, 0 to maybe 1" grip down.  Around the greens it's a free for all.  Equipment wise I've come around to just going by feel/results, and not worrying too much about what people consider rules of thumb (e.g. Maltby promoting heavier swingweight wedges).  SWs and total weights might not always make sense in the spreadsheets.  I'm definitely not as sensitive as others I read on here.  It just needs to make sense on the course at the end of the day.

Being able to understand things on paper/spreadsheet can be extremely helpful, and not letting yourself get married to them is the key to using them effectively IMO. In a game that we often have significantly less control over than we'd often like, digging through specs and data mining can be very attractive for the more analytical type, but it will only create more frustration if you can't marry what you learn with what you feel, as you've alluded to. 

For me, all I ever want is whatever allows me to make a committed swing. I tend to prefer using shot shape to add/subtract slightly over choking up for that reason as my testing on GCQuad seems to thankfully support that I am +/- 5 to 7 yards with a draw/fade respectively which tends to cover most of those "between clubs" gaps, but that is not always the best option. I'll choke up if the ball is above my feet though, and your points about swingweight are why I have to be careful here, because as the club feels lighter I will tend to neutralize my path more or even come over the top slightly if i'm not careful, not a good move from an already draw biased lie. I'll tend to make sure I exaggerate a "dropping inside" move to counteract that tendency, especially is there is trouble left. All of that is how I try to take all the data in to "feel" territory. Some people would just do all of these things instinctually, but I like to know the "why" as it seems you likely do to. ?

[joostin]

Curious if anyone has data off a launch monitor to support a consistent distance drop in irons when gripping down an inch or so??? @Valtiel you mentioned you prefer shaping shots to take off or add yards, but ever tried on your GC Quad just gripping down?  Reason I ask is because TXG didn't really see a distance drop with Matt hitting 6 iron gripped down 1 to 1.5" at least in initial swings.  I know it's person dependent and needs more data, but his initial swings showed:  little drop in clubhead speed, dynamic lie more toe down, spin decreased, and sometimes dynamic loft decreased.  I want to say that's what I've seen on the range/course, but never tried on a lanch monitor - no drop in distance unless combined with a cutoff or easy swing.

Driver definitely will see a bigger drop in clubhead speed.  One of TXG's interesting comments was delivering less dynamic loft due to more forward shaft lean with a shorter club. It makes sense when the ball is the same amount forward, but you're standing closer to the ball, and the hands deliver in the same position.  Also strike was higher up the face even with a lower tee at least partly due to more forward shaft lean.

I haven't read many single length iron threads, but imagine distance loss in longer irons is little even without hotter faces.  A little more forward shaft lean with a little higher strike for less spin.

Are these common findings for you guys with launch monitors or fitting experiences?

Edited September 8, 2020 by joostin

[chipa]

Tiger Woods used to choke down to take off distance and he was pretty good at it. Maybe this is why he was so particular about his irons and the sole.

 

I am a minimalist and have to deal with 20-25 yards more or less between my irons and as of yet swinging easier hasn't been working because I have a tendency to jump at it even with a shorter swing and am going long although I only have 3-4 rounds since going minimalist. I like the idea of trying to hit a cut even though I find it difficult to do.

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, joostin said:

Curious if anyone has data off a launch monitor to support a consistent distance drop in irons when gripping down an inch or so??? @Valtiel you mentioned you prefer shaping shots to take off or add yards, but ever tried on your GC Quad just gripping down?  Reason I ask is because TXG didn't really see a distance drop with Matt hitting 6 iron gripped down 1 to 1.5" at least in initial swings.  I know it's person dependent and needs more data, but his initial swings showed:  little drop in clubhead speed, dynamic lie more toe down, spin decreased, and sometimes dynamic loft decreased.  I want to say that's what I've seen on the range/course, but never tried on a lanch monitor - no drop in distance unless combined with a cutoff or easy swing.

Driver definitely will see a bigger drop in clubhead speed.  One of TXG's interesting comments was delivering less dynamic loft due to more forward shaft lean with a shorter club. It makes sense when the ball is the same amount forward, but you're standing closer to the ball, and the hands deliver in the same position.  Also strike was higher up the face even with a lower tee at least partly due to more forward shaft lean.

I haven't read many single length iron threads, but imagine distance loss in longer irons is little even without hotter faces.  A little more forward shaft lean with a little higher strike for less spin.

Are these common findings for you guys with launch monitors or fitting experiences?

I have never tested gripping down on QCquad or any other launch monitor unfortunately. The tricky thing about using one person's experience (in this case Matt's) is that the effect of gripping down will definitely vary from person to person (as you said), and Matt admittedly is more of a "full swing" guy with lots of speed and generally very low spin, which will tend to skew his distances towards the longer side. 

[David Terrie]

Regardless of the swing weight difference, what counts is the result. Your irons will fly lower, spin less, and have a bit less stopping power. This is what you need into the wind. I also make a more compact swing, which is good for contact and control. Pretty good trade-off. If you don't get to play a lot, and you don't have your A game, it's a good way to both hit more quality shots and get your timing back.