Ball Mark on Fringe

[Double K]

I hit an approach shot just short of the putting surface and the ball mark was right in my line. I repaired it and then didn't know if I was actually allowed to. 

 

What's the ruling? Am I allowed to fix a ball mark off of the putting surface?

[Sawgrass]

No, you are not!  See 8.1a(3).  

As an exception, you are allowed to fix ball marks on the putting green at any time.

[Shilgy]

It is good etiquette however to repair the pitch mark after your next shot. 

[Newby]

2 hours ago, Double K said:

I hit an approach shot just short of the putting surface and the ball mark was right in my line. I repaired it and then didn't know if I was actually allowed to. 

 

What's the ruling? Am I allowed to fix a ball mark off of the putting surface?

8.1a/1

Examples of (forbidden) actions that are likely to improve conditions affecting the stroke (that is, likely to give a player a potential advantage) include when:

• A player repairs a pitch-mark in the general area or replaces a divot in a divot hole a few yards in front of his or her ball on the line of play before making a stroke that might be affected by the pitch-mark or divot hole (for example, a putt or a low-running chip).

[LeoLeo99]

Unless you're on the green, you can't improve your line. On the ground or in the air 

[slocagolfer]

1 hour ago, LeoLeo99 said:

Unless you're on the green, you can't improve your line. On the ground or in the air 

See Sawgrass's post above.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Newby said:

8.1a/1

Examples of (forbidden) actions that are likely to improve conditions affecting the stroke (that is, likely to give a player a potential advantage) include when:

• A player repairs a pitch-mark in the general area or replaces a divot in a divot hole a few yards in front of his or her ball on the line of play before making a stroke that might be affected by the pitch-mark or divot hole (for example, a putt or a low-running chip).

 

Similar to the 150 yard shot where fixing a divot some yards in front of the ball is UNlikely to affect the shot, and is OK to do, if the ball is say 5 yards short of the green and I'm chipping the ball WELL OVER said pitch mark, why wouldn't it be OK to fix it ?

 

Now if I then putted the ball,,,,,,,, different story, no ?

 

 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, LeoLeo99 said:

Unless you're on the green, you can't improve your line. On the ground or in the air 

It depends.  See post from Newby.

[antip]

Others have hit the big target: breach of 8.1a is the normal answer that applies 99 per cent of the time for a pitch mark off the putting green that is on your line of play.

 

Now the fine print - there are two key exceptions:

 

The first category is if that pitch mark was made by a ball landing after your original ball came to rest (rare but possible), you can then freely repair; and

 

The other category is while your ball is marked and lifted under a rule that permits relief in a different place, you are then free to repair ANY pitch marks OUTSIDE your relief area even if on your intended line of play - note this permission under the Rules is only while the ball is lifted and ceases when the ball is put back into play.

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, antip said:

The other category is while your ball is marked and lifted under a rule that permits relief in a different place, you are then free to repair ANY pitch marks OUTSIDE your relief area even if on your intended line of play - note this permission under the Rules is only while the ball is lifted and ceases when the ball is put back into play.

 

Hmm, that's new to me . . . where's that from? Thanks.

Edited September 6, 2020 by sui generis

[antip]

3 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Hmm, that's new to me . . . where's that from? Thanks.

Highlighted by the current USGA Short Course processes. See Round 1 Q16. Issue is when ball is lifted (to drop, not replace), the relief area is 'protected' by 8.1 but not the area outside. It is treated under 8.2, so I should also note, you must consider you are 'caring for the course' and then you can have at it.

[limegreengent]

" Antip 

"The other category is while your ball is marked and lifted under a rule that permits relief in a different place, you are then free to repair ANY pitch marks OUTSIDE your relief area even if on your intended line of play"

 

Antip I fear that above statement could be mis- understood  by some and hopefully the following further information is helpful to others .

 

Here is the question and answer 

 

"Question: True or False: Your ball is embedded in its own pitch-mark in the fringe just off the putting green. After lifting the ball and before taking relief, you tap down the pitch-mark to care for the course and then realize the repair of the pitch-mark could help you if the ball came to rest in a position where you might have to play through it. The dropped ball hits and comes to rest in the relief area and you play a low running chip shot directly over the repaired pitch-mark. You get the general penalty under Rule 8.1a for improving your conditions affecting the stroke.

(a) True
(b) False.      Answer was False 

 

The USGA statement  explaining improving your line of play before dropping in a relief area was as follows.:- 

 

 

".WHEN AND WHY  you repaired the pitch-mark are both critical factors. First, the pitch-mark was not part of the conditions affecting the stroke when you repaired it so Rule 8.1 doesn’t apply - it was not part of the relief area (see Rule 16.3a for how embedded ball relief works) and you did not yet have a line of play.
Additionally, Rule 8.2 would apply only to actions you took to deliberately affect where your ball might roll or to affect a future stroke, which wasn’t why you fixed it. No penalty and play on." 

 

 

So IF the player  altered and improved an area of the course , realising before repairing and dropping in a relief area , that the so said altered area had the potential to improve his next or subsequent stroke - he would be in breach of 8.2. The Player would need to justify that his only motive was care of the course and he did not realise that it had the potential to improve his line of play , etc.

 

Hopefully  we agree that It certainly does not give you  Cart Blanche to alter areas of the course with impunity - just  because  you are dropping in a relief area.

 The above information emphasises your later statement -re sole motive must be care of the course - which may not be fully appreciated by all. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by greenman

[antip]

@greenman

Thank you for taking the time to flesh this out more. I agree my initial introduction of the issue wasn't sufficiently qualified, which I realised when responding subsequently to Sui. And I agree it is not a carte blanche situation....

However, I think your summary sentence:

 

"The Player would need to justify that his only motive was care of the course and he did not realise that it had the potential to improve his line of play , etc."

 

implies a requirement that does not exist. Providing a player's motivation includes caring for the course, the player is not subject to any penalty for deliberate actions to alter physical conditions to affect the stroke to be made. This is the nature of Rule 8.2 and it's Exception. And action that improves the line of play forward of the relief area is not a breach of Rule 8.1a as discussed above when the ball is lifted under a rule that allows the ball to be dropped in another place.

 

To take a simple practical example: your approach shot to the green comes up a little short into an area riddled with plug marks (not so many people repair plug marks short of the green); your stance touches a small bare patch that has been white lined as GUR and you lift your ball to take relief under 16.1. Providing you now have the intent to care for the course (regardless of any other motivations), before your ball is put back into play, you are free to repair any and all of those plug marks forward of your GUR relief area that potentially improve your line of play.

 

This is what the recent USGA Short Course question has drawn to our attention, surprising many.

[llewol007]

only on the green. 

[Schulzmc]

Yesterday my ball created a large pitch mark on the fringe of the green and then came to rest about an inch IN FRONT of the pitch mark. So the pitch mark was behind my ball, not on my line. Grass and some mud were sticking up about an inch and impeding my back stroke and path to the back of the ball. Since it is not on my line of play can I repair that pitch mark?

[sui generis]

5 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

Yesterday my ball created a large pitch mark on the fringe of the green and then came to rest about an inch IN FRONT of the pitch mark. So the pitch mark was behind my ball, not on my line. Grass and some mud were sticking up about an inch and impeding my back stroke and path to the back of the ball. Since it is not on my line of play can I repair that pitch mark?

 

Rule 8.1a suggests that you may not.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=8&subrulenum=1

[antip]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

Yesterday my ball created a large pitch mark on the fringe of the green and then came to rest about an inch IN FRONT of the pitch mark. So the pitch mark was behind my ball, not on my line. Grass and some mud were sticking up about an inch and impeding my back stroke and path to the back of the ball. Since it is not on my line of play can I repair that pitch mark?

Repairing the pitch mark before your stroke would improve your area of intended swing, breaching 8.1a, see the link Sui provides for full details.

[Schulzmc]

16 minutes ago, antip said:

Repairing the pitch mark before your stroke would improve your area of intended swing, breaching 8.1a, see the link Sui provides for full details.

This is what I thought. Surprisingly, the pro in my group told me, “since that is not in your line of play you can repair your ballmark.”

Edited September 12, 2020 by Schulzmc

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

This is what I thought. Surprisingly, the pro in my group told me, “since that is not in your line of play you can repair your ballmark.”

That's the problem with asking someone who doesn't know (but maybe should know) the Rules!  Sometimes you'd be better off asking a sign post, or, even better, learn some of the basic Rules yourself and become your group's expert.

[antip]

4 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

This is what I thought. Surprisingly, the pro in my group told me, “since that is not in your line of play you can repair your ballmark.”

Beware of pros bearing Rules gifts.

[2bGood]

8 hours ago, antip said:

Beware of pros bearing Rules gifts.

 

Yes it is staggering how rare it is that a pro knows the rules. Head Pro's are the worst, younger pros are bit better as they studied the rules more recently. 

[sui generis]

9 hours ago, antip said:

Beware of pros bearing Rules gifts.

 

My experience has been that professionals who have played and continue to play a lot of competitive golf do a pretty good job with the Rules. Those who haven't or don't play competitively are typically less well prepared to help their members or customers with Rules assistance. Though, at PGA/USGA Rules Workshops there are generally a handful of club professionals in attendance. (They always sit in the back row.)