Advice Rule and Tiger Woods

[Nels55]

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere I did a search and could not find anything.  I guess that that this sort of advice to a fellow competitor is okay under rule 10.2?:

 

"I do remember on 18 though, the long par-3. ... I hit it on the green and I was tied for second," Calcavecchia said. "Tiger hit it 20 feet from the hole. I blasted my first putt about 8 feet by, so I said, 'I'll finish.' And he walked by around me and said, 'Take your time. This is an important putt, take your time. Take your time and knock this one in, will ya?'"

 

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/remembering-time-tiger-woods-saved-mark-calcavecchia-300k-putt?utm-tags=golf1304000&mi_u=A67F9AB8-D9AE-47FA-9AE2-D8B024C42D15

 

I have read a lot of similar stories of one pro calming another down etc. so I guess that sort of thing is allowed? 

[Sawgrass]

IMO telling someone to take his time is equivalent to telling him he doesn’t have to hurry on my behalf. That doesn’t sound like advice to me.  And telling him to sink the putt is too obvious to be considered advice.

[sui generis]

The first test of "advice" comes from the Definition:

 

Advice - Any verbal comment or action (such as showing what club was just used to make a stroke) that is intended to influence a player in:

Choosing a club, Making a stroke, or Deciding how to play during a hole or round.

 

But advice does not include public information, such as: The location of things on the course such as the hole, the putting green, the fairway, penalty areas, bunkers, or another player’s ball, The distance from one point to another, or The Rules.

[straightshot7]

As mentioned above, this doesn't constitute the "advice" that rule 10.2 is referring to. 

 

This is courtesy and encouragement by Tiger to Calc, not strategic advice. 

 

Purpose of Rule: A fundamental challenge for the player is deciding the strategy and tactics for his or her play. So there are limits to the advice and other help the player may get during a round.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-10.html

[LeoLeo99]

This topic comes up here often.  It's a rule that is hard to nail down exactly.  Lot of wind up there.  Ensure you hit enough club.  That's advice. Likely.   Ahhhh, I thought I had enough club and I still came up short.  Probably not advice if said in aggravation to no one in particular.  Probably is advice if said to a FC in earnest. 

 

Calm down and make a good stroke. I don't think that's advice.  

[Hawkeye77]

Old news and not a rules dilemma. 

[Emthree]

'Take your time. This is an important putt, take your time"

 

Gamesmanship right there, it's the same "advice" my dad used to give me!

[Nels55]

Thanks for the answers!  I am trying to get a better understanding of this rule and I feel like I am getting a little closer.  Interesting that @Emthree thought of Tiger's comments as being gamesmanship.  Obviously not the case here but does bring to mind some possibilities.

 

Another question, please consider a team match where there are two points for each individual match and also 2 points for the team match.  When the team match is over the teams are no longer allowed to give each other advice.  So after the team match is over but both individual matches were still going if one teammate says to another "Make a smooth swing" on the 17th tee would this be a violation of the rule?  Would there be a general penalty for the guy who gave the advice or would that not be considered advice?  I assume if it was advice the guy receiving the advice would not be penalized because such advice is out of his control?

 

Thanks much!

[sui generis]

Here's how a referee or committee would likely approach such a question. Their first stop would be to open the Rule book to Definitions and find Advice.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=2

 

While they probably have long ago memorized that Definition, they would still open the book. 

 

They would also interview the participants to determine what was said and the intent of the speaker's statement. "Make a smooth swing." It might mean that the player has been wayward because in the opinion of the speaker the player has not been "smooth." Or, perhaps it's merely an innocent encouragement.

Edited September 8, 2020 by sui generis

[Nels55]

14 hours ago, sui generis said:

Here's how a referee or committee would likely approach such a question. Their first stop would be to open the Rule book to Definitions and find Advice.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions&subrulenum=2

 

While they probably have long ago memorized that Definition, they would still open the book. 

 

They would also interview the participants to determine what was said and the intent of the speaker's statement. "Make a smooth swing." It might mean that the player has been wayward because in the opinion of the speaker the player has not been "smooth." Or, perhaps it's merely an innocent encouragement.

If you were playing  in this match and your opponent said "Make a smooth swing" to his former partner would you raise the issue or let it go?

[llewol007]

That is not a player giving another advice in terms of the putt itself. Now if he said take your time and aim a ball higher outside of the hole, then that would be a breach. 

[sui generis]

24 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

If you were playing  in this match and your opponent said "Make a smooth swing" to his former partner would you raise the issue or let it go?

 

Perhaps I'd be in a position to judge if I thought it was advice. If I thought not, I'd pass. If I thought it might be, before we teed off on the next hole, I'd inform my opponent that I would be seeking a ruling.

[Nels55]

24 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Perhaps I'd be in a position to judge if I thought it was advice. If I thought not, I'd pass. If I thought it might be, before we teed off on the next hole, I'd inform my opponent that I would be seeking a ruling.

Hmmm, well I did not call and I doubt that I ever would.  If I called it on the next tee as you suggest I might have gotten punched in mouth!  If you are going to call something it should be called when it happens should it not?  

[sui generis]

5 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Hmmm, well I did not call and I doubt that I ever would.  If I called it on the next tee as you suggest I might have gotten punched in mouth!  If you are going to call something it should be called when it happens should it not?  

 

Well, this being the Rules folder, I was merely pointing out that there is usually a limited window for making a claim. Sometimes we might wish to think about what we wish to do for a few minutes. ?

[Krt22]

Gamesmanship

21 hours ago, Emthree said:

'Take your time. This is an important putt, take your time"

 

Gamesmanship right there, it's the same "advice" my dad used to give me!

100%. We say this in my group all the time to psych each other out lol

[Nels55]

Definitely not gamesmanship.  Calc credited Tiger with helping him to increase his bank account by $300,000.

Quote:

And in Calc's view, he had Tiger to thank for the extra bump to his bank account.

"He knew it was probably a $300,000 putt or something. And somehow I took my time and made it," Calcavecchia said. "I'll never forget that, that he came up and said that to me at the time. So that was pretty cool."