Are some greens just destined to be slow?

[Shipwreck]

I know very little about turf management (about as much as much as you can find out online) but it seems that some of our city courses are just doomed to be slow rollers where as the nicer complexes can bump the speed up a bit. Is it just cheap grass and lack of good maintenance or can theoretically any green run close to PGA speed without killing the green complex?

[garzar]

Getting greens really fast requires top-notch mowers, sharp blades and knowledge to use them. Cutting short can easily lead to turf damage if not done correctly and with the right tools. Most public tracks are a little slower for a reason: $$, equipment and knowledge.   https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/gci0614-mowing-turf-health/

[James the Hogan Fan]

Turfgrass is constantly trying to die. Cut too short, it dies. Too cold, it dies, too hot, it dies. Too dry? Dead. Too wet? You guessed it, dead. Too much shade? Dead. All else being equal, the faster the green the closer to death the grass.

 

Are greens 'destined' to be slow? Well some are built on soil that for some reason or other cannot adequately sustain the grass at the requisite height/firmness. Some greens by virtue of location are too wet/shaded to be fast. A course I worked at had such a green in its own valley that was always slow in spring. Another green was on a windswept hill and always rolled faster. For awhile we kept all the greens running slower on purpose to not have 16 normal, 1 slow, and one lightning green. 

 

I would say any green can be made run faster, but not without consequences and or throwing money at it. Sometimes that winds up meaning a complete blow up and start over rebuild as will happen at that course above.

[UCBananaboy]

Not to mention that fast greens are typically a bad idea for public play because they'll lead to slower pace of play. The faster they are, the more  golfers will leave themselves 5+ footers which results in people marking them, etc.

 

I doubt it's a huge factor relative to the other reasons stated above but worth mentioning.

[RayGorman]

It would most likely depend on it's location on the course. If it's in constant shade it won't like a short fast cut. They might have to keep it a bit longer to keep it alive. It would be the 'one' green you need to know about it being a tad slower. 

[nick_CO]

Another reason is staffing resources. A lot of public courses don’t have enough maintenance guys to mow greens everyday. Private courses are also constantly being hand watered all day long, whereas a bunch of public places turn the sprinklers on in between groups of golfers. 

[RRFireblade]

PGA courses, generally only run at "PGA" speeds for a couple weeks at a time, at most.... and it takes weeks to get them there.  Cost, labor, wear and maintenance would be beyond prohibitive IMO on anything close to a public/semi private course. 

[cardoustie]

42 minutes ago, RRFireblade said:

PGA courses, generally only run at "PGA" speeds for a couple weeks at a time, at most.... and it takes weeks to get them there.  Cost, labor, wear and maintenance would be beyond prohibitive IMO on anything close to a public/semi private course. 

Great to see you posting again ... how’s the game?

Edited September 9, 2020 by cardoustie

[RRFireblade]

11 hours ago, cardoustie said:

Great to see you posting again ... how’s the game?

Thanks. Probably not great. Lol. Between school, moving (bought a new house) and Covid, I haven't hit a ball in months. Just about settled in and looking to get back. We have an out building on the property and I've started setting up my launch monitor/indoor range, but thats it so far. 

[mallrat]

Something else that has been kind of touched on and/or mentioned is equipment. IMO, without a roller you are only going to get them to a certain speed no matter what. Also do you have the man hours to maintain the greens and I know of a couple courses that don’t have rollers. 
 

One course I worked at mowed every other day and then did a roll or double roll on the off days. The greens never got below an 11 all year. My current course had a tournament that needed to be tour quality. 3 days before we mowed and then rolled then the 2 days of we double cut and rolled. Along with dialing back water we stressed the crud out of them but they were close to a 14. We normally try to keep them at around 10, but this is a public course that averages over 350 rounds a day. 

Edited September 12, 2020 by mallrat

[smashdn]

Combination of dryness of the turf and height of cut is it not?

 

I find greens grass to be weird.  Some places have a very tight sward where finding and picking out a single blade of grass while standing is very difficult.  Other places it looks like the grass is very wirey and you can easily pick out a single blade.  Neither of those is indicative of how fast or slow the green putts.

 

There is one public course I play where the green bent variety is very grainy appearing, almost like if you were to mow zoysia very short.  It has a very pronounced blade of grass that appears wide in comparison to other bents.  However, it usually plays very dry and pretty fast.  Big rolly-polly greens with distinct "quadrants" and tiers.  Got to keep it somewhat slow or it would be impossible to putt from one tier to another.

 

Another looks as though it has a very tight growing bent variety.  Almost looks as if the blades are standing straight up and cut.  If you were to take a bundle of dry wheat in hand and cut it with a very sharp knife it looks sort of like that.  Like the ball sits right on the cut ends of the blades.  But they keep it wet and long so it is very receptive but also very slow.

 

I played a newish bermuda green that was scalped.  You were basically putting on sand with little nubs of grass visible, especially on the edge of the green where the slope rolled off.  It was stupid fast and firm.  Very difficult to hold a shot on it.

 

I learned in a turf class (fun elective to take) that bent is actually a pretty hardy grass, when you let it grow.  When it gets cut to green height is where the stress comes from and the need to baby it.

 

At the time the treatment de riguer was to water greens (and fairways as well for that matter) heavily but not often.  The idea being you dry out the upper horizons and force the grass to "dig deep" and grow really deep reaching roots to get down to the water in the lower soil profile.  I am not sure how often that is practiced now.  In theory it makes sense but around here you have to mist the canopy of bent greens in summer to cool them down.  I doubt that makes for a resilient plant.  I know algae becomes and issue at times as well.  You'll get crusty patches between grass patches that will start to peel and you can see the greensmix under the peeled up places.  I suspect that is a combination of thatch and algae but don't know for sure.  It don't putt worth a darn though.

[jvincent]

On 9/6/2020 at 10:47 PM, Shipwreck said:

I know very little about turf management (about as much as much as you can find out online) but it seems that some of our city courses are just doomed to be slow rollers where as the nicer complexes can bump the speed up a bit. Is it just cheap grass and lack of good maintenance or can theoretically any green run close to PGA speed without killing the green complex?

Like others have said it's all about maintenance hours and $$$ with some environmental/geographic features thrown in.

 

That said whenever guys are my course complain about somewhat slower greens in the heat of summer my usual response is that no greens keeper ever got fired for slow greens but many have been fired for dead greens.

[ArtMBgolf]

Slow greens are easier to maintain at lower costs.  
You can understand 7-9 stimp, but some courses get carried away with a 5 stimp.   
 
Mid to Top end courses can get any greens grass putting fast, if they have the $$ and a good Super.  

[mallrat]

On 9/14/2020 at 9:46 AM, smashdn said:

Combination of dryness of the turf and height of cut is it not?

 

I find greens grass to be weird.  Some places have a very tight sward where finding and picking out a single blade of grass while standing is very difficult.  Other places it looks like the grass is very wirey and you can easily pick out a single blade.  Neither of those is indicative of how fast or slow the green putts.

 

There is one public course I play where the green bent variety is very grainy appearing, almost like if you were to mow zoysia very short.  It has a very pronounced blade of grass that appears wide in comparison to other bents.  However, it usually plays very dry and pretty fast.  Big rolly-polly greens with distinct "quadrants" and tiers.  Got to keep it somewhat slow or it would be impossible to putt from one tier to another.

 

Another looks as though it has a very tight growing bent variety.  Almost looks as if the blades are standing straight up and cut.  If you were to take a bundle of dry wheat in hand and cut it with a very sharp knife it looks sort of like that.  Like the ball sits right on the cut ends of the blades.  But they keep it wet and long so it is very receptive but also very slow.

 

I played a newish bermuda green that was scalped.  You were basically putting on sand with little nubs of grass visible, especially on the edge of the green where the slope rolled off.  It was stupid fast and firm.  Very difficult to hold a shot on it.

 

I learned in a turf class (fun elective to take) that bent is actually a pretty hardy grass, when you let it grow.  When it gets cut to green height is where the stress comes from and the need to baby it.

 

At the time the treatment de riguer was to water greens (and fairways as well for that matter) heavily but not often.  The idea being you dry out the upper horizons and force the grass to "dig deep" and grow really deep reaching roots to get down to the water in the lower soil profile.  I am not sure how often that is practiced now.  In theory it makes sense but around here you have to mist the canopy of bent greens in summer to cool them down.  I doubt that makes for a resilient plant.  I know algae becomes and issue at times as well.  You'll get crusty patches between grass patches that will start to peel and you can see the greensmix under the peeled up places.  I suspect that is a combination of thatch and algae but don't know for sure.  It don't putt worth a darn though.

As to your first sentence, I would also add cultural practices. Are you verticutting and topdressing? If so, how often and how aggressively? If you have a big thatch layer they will only get to a certain point, IMO. I say that because I’ve only worked at courses that are generally very aggressive in the top dressing and verticutting. 

[James the Hogan Fan]

On 9/7/2020 at 4:04 PM, James the Hogan Fan said:

Turfgrass is constantly trying to die. Cut too short, it dies. Too cold, it dies, too hot, it dies. Too dry? Dead. Too wet? You guessed it, dead. Too much shade? Dead. All else being equal, the faster the green the closer to death the grass.

 

Are greens 'destined' to be slow? Well some are built on soil that for some reason or other cannot adequately sustain the grass at the requisite height/firmness. Some greens by virtue of location are too wet/shaded to be fast. A course I worked at had such a green in its own valley that was always slow in spring. Another green was on a windswept hill and always rolled faster. For awhile we kept all the greens running slower on purpose to not have 16 normal, 1 slow, and one lightning green. 

 

I would say any green can be made run faster, but not without consequences and or throwing money at it. Sometimes that winds up meaning a complete blow up and start over rebuild as will happen at that course above.

 

So I was thinking more about this thread and I want to dive a little deeper into these things.

 

I want to mention the course I worked at, because I know a fair bit about it. It was built to be a links style place, firm and fast. Because it was built on a landfill, all topsoil was imported. Because of this, the greensmix is a very good blend of sand (over 90% if memory serves) and the balance as organic peat moss. The sand is to facilitate drainage, allow the roots air and space to grow. The organics provide nutrients and the correct moisture retention to prevent the soil matrix from drying out.

 

How does this help speed? It provides healthy conditions for turfgrass growth. It creates a surface firm enough to support the machinery required to keep the turf cut short and smooth. It allows moisture to drain quickly, remaining firm, but retains some moisture to prevent drying out. These conditions allow the superintendent to implement a maintenance and fertilization program to increase speed: cutting, rolling, sanding, brushing, tining. These greens are currently rolling at 11' for general play (I know because I stimped them last week).

 

 

Let's contrast with the greens at my current home course. They too can be made to roll fast; at our club championship in August they were rolling at 10'. But they are push-up greens from when the course was built in the 70's, i.e. built out of the native soil. Years of management has added sand to the upper strata of the soil, but this soil is, in general, much thicker and heavier than at the other course, up to and including the presence of clay. This means moisture is better retained, and the green stays softer longer after a rainstorm. 

 

Softer means failure to hold up to the forces of footfalls. Mowers cannot be as consistent as they depress the turf irregularly. The results are a horror show as seen in the picture below. You can also see indentations from scarification and a bumpier surface. Some greens have even been lost altogether (3rd pic)

 

So what's the point? Well going back to the question of a green being destined to be slow... The second course's greens are "destined" to be slower than the first. That's not to say they can't be made faster; the second course did for the Club Championship, but at a greater effort. Furthermore, the aftereffects of having getting the greens to that speed have crippled them for the remainder of the season.

 

I invite you to meet the superintendent of the course(s) you frequent. Talk to them about the unique issues that confront them. He might point out problem spots or problem greens and how he deals with them. You'll probably learn something new!

 

 

[mallrat]

7 hours ago, James the Hogan Fan said:

 

So I was thinking more about this thread and I want to dive a little deeper into these things.

 

I want to mention the course I worked at, because I know a fair bit about it. It was built to be a links style place, firm and fast. Because it was built on a landfill, all topsoil was imported. Because of this, the greensmix is a very good blend of sand (over 90% if memory serves) and the balance as organic peat moss. The sand is to facilitate drainage, allow the roots air and space to grow. The organics provide nutrients and the correct moisture retention to prevent the soil matrix from drying out.

 

How does this help speed? It provides healthy conditions for turfgrass growth. It creates a surface firm enough to support the machinery required to keep the turf cut short and smooth. It allows moisture to drain quickly, remaining firm, but retains some moisture to prevent drying out. These conditions allow the superintendent to implement a maintenance and fertilization program to increase speed: cutting, rolling, sanding, brushing, tining. These greens are currently rolling at 11' for general play (I know because I stimped them last week).

 

 

Let's contrast with the greens at my current home course. They too can be made to roll fast; at our club championship in August they were rolling at 10'. But they are push-up greens from when the course was built in the 70's, i.e. built out of the native soil. Years of management has added sand to the upper strata of the soil, but this soil is, in general, much thicker and heavier than at the other course, up to and including the presence of clay. This means moisture is better retained, and the green stays softer longer after a rainstorm. 

 

Softer means failure to hold up to the forces of footfalls. Mowers cannot be as consistent as they depress the turf irregularly. The results are a horror show as seen in the picture below. You can also see indentations from scarification and a bumpier surface. Some greens have even been lost altogether (3rd pic)

 

So what's the point? Well going back to the question of a green being destined to be slow... The second course's greens are "destined" to be slower than the first. That's not to say they can't be made faster; the second course did for the Club Championship, but at a greater effort. Furthermore, the aftereffects of having getting the greens to that speed have crippled them for the remainder of the season.

 

I invite you to meet the superintendent of the course(s) you frequent. Talk to them about the unique issues that confront them. He might point out problem spots or problem greens and how he deals with them. You'll probably learn something new!

 

 

It’s interesting you bring the type of greens up and I forget about that all the time. Our greens are “spec” greens but sometime after the course was built they converted an event lawn into a putting course. So on property we have both USGA spec and push up greens both maintained identical and there really is no comparison. The push up doesn’t drain well and is generally a pain. It is never as fast as the course greens

[Heritage Printmaker]

Green speeds are mainly a function of grass type, mowing height, rolling, and feeding/water regimen. 

 

Grass type - some grasses (G2 bentgrass) lay flatter and mow shorter than others (paspalum)

 

Mowing height - the less leaf tissue, the less drag on the ball

 

Rolling - lays the grass down reducing drag even more

 

Feeding / water - growth inhibitors such as Primo slow down growth so greens don't get slower (due to plant growth) as the day wears on. Syringing (hand watering) greens provides just enough water to cool the plants (which struggle due lack of leaft tissue, compaction, etc).

All of the above are optimal growth practices for the plant (with the exception of plant type). They're something you can do at certain parts of the season (ideally when you have good root depth), but not something you'll want to do constantly. Very labor intensive and can significantly lengthen a round of golf if the conditions and player handicaps don't match.

[DonatelloNobodie]

Greens can be maintained to any speed.  Faster greens require more careful and thorough maintenance and thus cost more. It's up to the course to decide how much to spend.  They generally maintain costs (and thus speeds)  as low as customers or members will accept.  If the tee sheet fills with slow greens, there's no reason for more costly speed.

[mallrat]

On 9/19/2020 at 8:42 AM, DonatelloNobodie said:

Greens can be maintained to any speed.  Faster greens require more careful and thorough maintenance and thus cost more. It's up to the course to decide how much to spend.  They generally maintain costs (and thus speeds)  as low as customers or members will accept.  If the tee sheet fills with slow greens, there's no reason for more costly speed.

I’m sorry but I have to disagree with this. No Super I have met or worked for wants slow greens no matter how much play. They take an immense amount of pride in what they do and no one is harder on them than they are on themselves. If you find a course you think is in perfect condition I can guarantee the Super will name 20 things off his head without thinking. 
 

I’m an Asst and we got a few comments yesterday about our greens being slow and I texted my boss that they looked off. Not dying or anything just looked off. So we both came in 2 hours before the crew and started working on it. Figured it out and nothing we could do about it today. But he took it very personal. Now they still stimped between 9 & 9 1/2 but not what he expects. 

[Heritage Printmaker]

Isn't "slow" a relative term? I've heard golfers complain about greens that were stimping at 11 on a Tuesday morning ladies day. Truth is 98% of golfers don't know what they're talking about agronomically. First and foremost, most superintendents care about plant health. Dead grass = no job. Depending on the severity of the green slopes you can't have fast greens because you'll only have two pinnable areas that are going to get pretty beat up. Or in many cases you want uniformity over all 18 greens. Severe greens are going to seem faster than some of the flatter greens.

 I get your point about pride, but a superintendent I worked for used to bet people a $100 bill that they couldn't tell him what the greens were stimping. They'd either back down because they knew better, or he'd go through the whole process to show them what went into it and why they were the speed they were. At the end he'd never take their money, but they walked away with a greater appreciation for what we did and in a lot of cases they would spread the word to other members. A lot of this stuff is about educating the golfers.

[mallrat]

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve never worked for or with a super who even cared about green speed. The number is more about golfers and what they perceive. My 1st super told me it’s all about healthy turf. Healthy turf will produce a smooth roll which will give the appearance of fast greens. 
 

Now something I have always said that you touch on is, IMO, green speed is irrelevant. As long as the speed matches the slope then you are ok. At our course, we only get them above 12 for 1 day a year and that is partly because of the amount of play we get, but we are lucky in that even that day every hole has multiple usable pin locations. 

[golfandtennisfan]

Yes many will always be slower than you may like to due all the reasons mentioned, most notably cost/staffing/equipment needed and just too much play. Those are the biggies. Most busy public places are destined to not have faster greens though one I frequent avg 10 -11 every time I play it which is about as good as public gets in my opinion. Playing there tomorrow so will be interesting to see if still like that.