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My Swing Evolution is a Charlatan!


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20 hours ago, SwagGolf6112 said:

 

I know, you're trying to be fair. You think I'm not. I feel you man.

 

But please know that I wouldn't be doing this if he didn't published and "sold" the infamous "Hogan Code". Beyond ridiculous. Don't believe me? Go buy it and see for yourself. And if you find where the merit is please come back and share with me what I might have missed in that abomination that would make me become a consistent ball striker just like Christ... ohhhh, wait! He still sucks! Never mind.

Maybe Christo is just a good salesman, did you buy it and maybe you couldn’t make it work. And if you did buy it you must be searching yourself. 

I get your point about him and all the Hogan rhetoric, I don’t know what you mean about trolling, I’m just responding to your post, and like I said, there are plenty of guys on YouTube making videos and some you never see them hit a shot. At least Christo is putting it out there. Why don’t you post your swing for critique. 

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Haven't read this whole thread--kinda skimmed it but I think I got the theme. I've studied Hogan's swing quite a bit myself. I don't think MSE's ideas about Hogan's swing are any better or worse than

two pages of nothing. who freaking cares. 

I am not sure how I stumbled in here, but this thread is pretty insane - its got something for everyone - actually more like nothing for anyone.   I not a child of social media, so I am stil

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1 hour ago, snick59 said:

Maybe Christo is just a good salesman, did you buy it and maybe you couldn’t make it work. And if you did buy it you must be searching yourself. --> Nobody could make it work sir. Not even MSE himself. He could not do any of the things he preach in his videos or e-book. Pause his swing from P6 to P8. No resemblance of his so call Hogan technique. Just your average amateur stall flip swing. He just learned to better time it is all.

 

I get your point about him and all the Hogan rhetoric, I don’t know what you mean about trolling, I’m just responding to your post... --> Did you even bother to read my point regarding why MSE is a fraud? Cause it seems like the point you're making doesn't have anything to do with the main theme here. What I'm saying is "do not make money off of Hogan's name when you do not know how to swing like him or can't prove that it really did lower your score". MSE has done no nothing of such. So yes, he is still a charlatan in my book.

 

and like I said, there are plenty of guys on YouTube making videos and some you never see them hit a shot. At least Christo is putting it out there. Why don’t you post your swing for critique. --> What a weak argument. Still missing the damn point I'm making through this post. Did those said other guys sells e-books or golf clinics on the premise that he knows Hogan's secret. And do you know MSE isn't even a certified golf instructor. What he does isn't illegal I'll give you that. But it's immoral. Fake knowledge for real cash. Hence, a CHARLATAN!

 

You obviously haven't read my initial post and totally did not get the point I'm trying to make. Either way. We'll just agree to disagree. My swing has nothing to do with the fact that MSE falsely claims to know Hogan swing and makes money off of it. If this simple point couldn't get to you then we have nothing else to discuss. And thanks for bumping this thread so more people will wise up. MSE salutes you!

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On 10/8/2020 at 8:30 PM, SwagGolf6112 said:

 

You obviously haven't read my initial post and totally did not get the point I'm trying to make. Either way. We'll just agree to disagree. My swing has nothing to do with the fact that MSE falsely claims to know Hogan swing and makes money off of it. If this simple point couldn't get to you then we have nothing else to discuss. And thanks for bumping this thread so more people will wise up. MSE salutes you!

 I did read your initial post, and I get it, he’s making money off the Hogan name and doesn’t even come close to swinging like him. What I don’t get is why it bothers you so much..... Maybe you’re not getting my point, the internet is full of guys with golf tips and most of them have something to sell, just listen if they have something useful to say, if not move on. 

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On 10/9/2020 at 4:18 PM, snick59 said:

 I did read your initial post, and I get it, he’s making money off the Hogan name and doesn’t even come close to swinging like him. What I don’t get is why it bothers you so much..... Maybe you’re not getting my point, the internet is full of guys with golf tips and most of them have something to sell, just listen if they have something useful to say, if not move on. 

If you don’t understand why it might bother people perhaps you don’t understand ethics and pimping off another person’s name and reputation. Hogan was successful in suing over exactly that, he’s not here to do that now which makes it worse. 

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7 hours ago, powerfade66 said:

If you don’t understand why it might bother people perhaps you don’t understand ethics and pimping off another person’s name and reputation. Hogan was successful in suing over exactly that, he’s not here to do that now which makes it worse. 

If you can read I do understand ethics, I never said it was right for Chisto to use Hogans name in any way, and he should put up an 18 hole vlog to back up his claims.  My point was, at least Christo is out there showing something, it’s like the OP and you as well seem to have a lot of knowledge about the Hogan swing, and maybe you guys should post your findings and start your own channel. 
  I have to admit,  I find yours and Swags posts very interesting, and I too believe Hogans swing was a work of art, and maybe he would have been the all time wins leader if it wasn’t for some detours, but the fascination and going down the rabbit hole gets to be too much. 
 Hogans greatest secret was ....how did he get everyone to think he had a secret. In reality he found something that worked for him, not one thing, it was a combination of many.  To try and figure it out is a waste of time, what made Chopin or Beethoven great musicians? You’ll never know. 
 How about Jack or Tiger,  they had more success, where’s the fascination?  Maybe they should have said they have a secret. 

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1 hour ago, snick59 said:

If you can read I do understand ethics, I never said it was right for Chisto to use Hogans name in any way, and he should put up an 18 hole vlog to back up his claims.  My point was, at least Christo is out there showing something, it’s like the OP and you as well seem to have a lot of knowledge about the Hogan swing, and maybe you guys should post your findings and start your own channel. 
  I have to admit,  I find yours and Swags posts very interesting, and I too believe Hogans swing was a work of art, and maybe he would have been the all time wins leader if it wasn’t for some detours, but the fascination and going down the rabbit hole gets to be too much. 
 Hogans greatest secret was ....how did he get everyone to think he had a secret. In reality he found something that worked for him, not one thing, it was a combination of many.  To try and figure it out is a waste of time, what made Chopin or Beethoven great musicians? You’ll never know. 
 How about Jack or Tiger,  they had more success, where’s the fascination?  Maybe they should have said they have a secret. 

 

The point is Christo appears to be a fraud who is making money off of unwitting golfers who think they will learn Hogan's secret. That bothers anyone with a sense of justice.

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3 hours ago, chipa said:

 

The point is Christo appears to be a fraud who is making money off of unwitting golfers who think they will learn Hogan's secret. That bothers anyone with a sense of justice.

Yeah so, agreed, I’m not sure he’s claiming to know Hogans secret, but he’s done a lot of research and if guys are willing to pay him that’s their prerogative. He might be the worst with regards to using Hogans name, but to me he gets lost in the myriad of so called Hogan experts, after awhile I stop paying attention. 

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7 hours ago, snick59 said:

Yeah so, agreed, I’m not sure he’s claiming to know Hogans secret, but he’s done a lot of research and if guys are willing to pay him that’s their prerogative. He might be the worst with regards to using Hogans name, but to me he gets lost in the myriad of so called Hogan experts, after awhile I stop paying attention. 

Who else is charging for Hogan’s name without any link to Hogan other than the 6 handicap swing he’s working on?

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2 hours ago, powerfade66 said:

Who else is charging for Hogan’s name without any link to Hogan other than the 6 handicap swing he’s working on?

For the last time I agree regarding Christo, How about awhile ago Jim McClean doing a Hogan series, or Tom Bertrand, he has books and a YouTube channel, I don’t know if they had consent but nonetheless, all profiting from the Hogan name, where have you been?  There’s BJ Hathaway with Augusta golf who references Hogan all the time. Just today I watched videos of Dan Whitaker, Shawn Clement, Tom Seguto, to name a few all with pay sites referencing Hogan, of course not to the extent of Chrisro. We can go on and on with guys who reference Hogan in some way or another, everyone seems to have an opinion on Hogan, isn’t that what this whole forum thread is about?  So please give it a rest. 

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36 minutes ago, snick59 said:

For the last time I agree regarding Christo, How about awhile ago Jim McClean doing a Hogan series, or Tom Bertrand, he has books and a YouTube channel, I don’t know if they had consent but nonetheless, all profiting from the Hogan name, where have you been?  There’s BJ Hathaway with Augusta golf who references Hogan all the time. Just today I watched videos of Dan Whitaker, Shawn Clement, Tom Seguto, to name a few all with pay sites referencing Hogan, of course not to the extent of Chrisro. We can go on and on with guys who reference Hogan in some way or another, everyone seems to have an opinion on Hogan, isn’t that what this whole forum thread is about?  So please give it a rest. 

Don’t tell me what I can and can’t say. They all have far more credibility than a mid level amateur. Tom Bertrand had links to Hogan through John Schlee. Where have I been? I know about all of the above, none of them are pretending to be something they’re not ie someone with the credentials to have someone pay for something supposedly of value Hogan related. McLean has links to Hogan through Jackie Burke. 

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8 hours ago, powerfade66 said:

Don’t tell me what I can and can’t say. They all have far more credibility than a mid level amateur. Tom Bertrand had links to Hogan through John Schlee. Where have I been? I know about all of the above, none of them are pretending to be something they’re not ie someone with the credentials to have someone pay for something supposedly of value Hogan related. McLean has links to Hogan through Jackie Burke. 

Wow it seems like someone needs a hug....your hatred for Christo  is so obvious you act like you have links to Hogan. Maybe you should have put out the Hogan code. Of the guys I mentioned you selectively chose only two, Jim mcClean the infamous X factor guy and Bertrand, both using their so called links to make a buck. My point is whether or not anyone has links there are plenty of guys on YouTube  talking about Hogan, profiting in some form or another. I don’t know how many ways I can say it. 

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1 hour ago, miamistomp said:

 I am a huge Hogan fan- but the man had the talent and the work ethic to accomplish what he did

 

 People love a mystery -just like in music where people keep recycling Robert Johnson and selling lessons on what they believe to be his technique

 

 Just the way it is

 

 

Nice! Hogan certainly found himself at the “Crossroads” a few times in his career.

 

BTW, is that an ES-125 TD in your avatar? Looks just like the one a buddy of mine had when we were kids in the mid ‘60s. I think his was a ‘59.

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2 hours ago, powerfade66 said:

That’s right, try and make it personal because you have nothing of substance to say, loser. How exactly do I act like I have links to Hogan? You’re the one that keeps this going like a pathetic Christo fan boy. What’s it to you? Why do you care about him so much? All the others are fully qualified PGA professionals and to my knowledge haven’t put out pay-to-view publications pretending to know “The Hogan Code”.

I’ve wasted enough time with you, you seem to have a hard time understanding what I’ve been saying. Agree to disagree, have a good one. 

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Haven’t watched MSE in several years because of what you describe, OP.  I’ll say this, though: if he wants to be taken seriously as an instructor it makes perfect sense that he not accept a competitive playing challenge. Rarely do you see high level coaches hit a shot on the golf course, let alone play a competitive round.

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5 hours ago, toc said:

Haven’t watched MSE in several years because of what you describe, OP.  I’ll say this, though: if he wants to be taken seriously as an instructor it makes perfect sense that he not accept a competitive playing challenge. Rarely do you see high level coaches hit a shot on the golf course, let alone play a competitive round.

I understand that concept. Imagine your whole reputation seemingly hinging on each shot you hit and the spotlight is on you and nobody else. Whereas if you’re on tour you get time to play yourself in and you’re among 100 or so others each week and not expected to play great each and every time. Start out as a rookie shooting 75s then gradually progress. The coach also doesn’t get to warm up with a bunch of short wedges and get their feel for the day.

 

But in this case charging people that otherwise don’t know any better for The Hogan Code is wrong when you’re a mere amateur. 

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1 minute ago, powerfade66 said:

But in this case charging people that otherwise don’t know any better for The Hogan Code is wrong when you’re a mere amateur. 

 

And the funny thing is "not even one" of his students is here to defend him. Or the ones that do clearly have some very strange logic and zero knowledge of the golf swing(I'm looking at you snick).

 

And I have a sneaking suspicion that he might even make his students(or should I say victim) sign a non-disclosure agreement prior to taking "lessons" from him to prevent them from bad mouthing him later LOL

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On 9/7/2020 at 10:16 PM, SwagGolf6112 said:

To MSE if you're reading this...

 

 

Hey Mr.Hogan... I mean MSE. I think you're a Charlatan and a liar. Can we see a round where you record all your shots like most respected youtube golf gurus do? I can't help but feel you're not truthful about your score and abilities.

 

 

I came across the BeBetterGolf video where you guys were playing and you clearly suck big time. Pull hooking and push slicing every shot due to your flippy release. But I thought you knew how Ben Hogan cured his hook??? Puzzling isn't it?! And also amazing how you failed to hit any fairway on a very simple course. And I was shocked to learn that you're actually selling an e-book called "THE HOGAN CODE". What code are you talking about??? What are you smoking sir???!!!! This is looney tunes! In contrast to the BeBetterGolf guy where he is truthful about his abilities and progress. Kudos to him. His channel actually is helpful and very well put together. Just to be clear, I have no association with the BBG Channel whatsoever.

 

link to the BeBetterGolf video where every shot MSE hit was recorded:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uRu-sv8hI4  

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And you can clearly see that after a few holes that you're having this "Oh s***, this was a bad idea to do this video" look on your face, you sir were worried. The BBG guy just wanted to have a conversation about golf but you clearly want none of it because you have your mind occupied on how you're gonna do damage control. And don't give us that bullxxxx about "oh, I was in the middle of making a swing change so I played poorly that day" crap. I heard your excuse about this before. I call bullxxxx for one main reason. You've already declared that you know how to swing like Hogan and has already published your e-book way before this video so there's no excuse to say that you're in the process of "making a swing change". Why make a swing change when you already claim to know the best swing of all times and it is such a great swing that you had to share it... oops, i meant SELL IT to people via your "HOGAN CODE" and clinics. I don't believe you for one second. Many golfers who are already a low handicap or a golf professional do go through swing changes but none of them played like s*** as you did on the video. So your excuse holds no water in this case!

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And here's your edited version on your channel where we barely see any of your golf shots cause you clearly didn't want people to know the truth.

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link to MSE video where there's hardly anything to see. Cleverly edited to show the BeBetterGolf guy talk for most of the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqrfoVIILic      

 

I bet he's gonna delete it soon after he sees this. So hurry and take a look folks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

For those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about. 

Here's a comparison of MSE and Hogan. Very different philosophy on how they go through the hitting area. Like opposite to be exact.

comp2.jpg.86b32d9371f63e1303868e9d5b752f42.jpg

 

To the untrained eyes it looks similar. But here are the key check points to look at... and a damn important part of the Hogan secret to be exact!

 

1. While Hogan's left hand is still very visible and still flat going slightly into extension. A sign of a no roll release which result in the club traveling in a path as outlined by the green arrows. The clubface is still dead square to the swing path. That's why he's a legend. For MSE? Not so much...

 

2. MSE left hand is gone here. Look closely as his right hand is already covering his entire left hand. Why? Because of the flip rolling release typical of someone who clearly does not know "Hogan's secret". Look at the path of the club shaft and clubhead outlined by the blue arrows. It is twisting and closing rapidly with the face already pointing behind him or shut when compared to his swing path. And this is "the least" flippy shot of him. I'm trying my best to be fair here. Most of his footage will show a way more flippy release than this one. So don't say I haven't given you a fair chance MSE!

 

 

 

Still not convince? Here's another comparison

comp4.jpg.bb1ccb10048b52e067cd78181469e9c3.jpg

 

Take note of the inside of the right elbow position...

 

1. While Hogan's looks more skyward, MSE is already looking straight behind him due to the right arm already taken over. The triangle formed by the shoulders and arms already collapsed while Hogan's triangle is still beautifully maintained. Hogan's left hand and arm not letting the right overpower it. And also noticed that Hogan's right elbow still has a slight bent in it although he was releasing like hell. Some people might call this "never running out of right arm". While MSE has already straighten. How did Hogan do it? You might have to ask MSE. He claims to know Hogan's secret right?

 

2. And also notice Hogan's butt end of the club pointing at his navel while MSE is pointing straight behind him. Like I said, a flip release typical in most high handicappers versus a legend's release. Mind you Hogan held nothing back and smash everything with his right hand and arm but he knows something MSE doesn't.

 

3. And not to mention the obvious "Goat Molestation" going on with MSE. Notice the angle at his right hip compared to Hogan. While Hogan maintained his posture beautifully, MSE has already "stood up" as apparent by the angle between his upper body and lower body. The goat hump is synonymous with the "stall flipper" of the golf club which is MSE's swing style.

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Now back to the topic. Hey MSE, if you're simply just making youtube videos recording your journey to playing better golf using Hogan's lesson, I'd say super, cause you seem like a nice enough guy and I love your enthusiasm. Also your videos are enjoyable and very well made. Your channel is like a love letter to Hogan and I think it's sweet. Hell, even you dressing up as Hogan is just plain adorable. There's no denying his style is timeless. So more power to you that you recognize this. Oh, or is it because you knew the the white cap helps people to associate yourself with Hogan better? Hmm, now I'm not so sure if it's done out of love or just shrewdness. But that's not the point. Dressing up like Hogan doesn't bother me one bit... 

 

...But what really grinds my gear is for you to be telling people you actually "KNOW" Hogan's secret and even worse to sell an e-book is like a sick joke and a blatant disrespect to Ben Hogan and all the legitimate golf instructors out there.

 

You sir, do not have any element of Ben Hogan's swing... well except for the white cap and exaggerated flat backswing. Which by the way isn't the same as Hogan mechanical wise. Oh and if anybody wants a good chuckle just look at MSE's swing from P6 to P8... my god, how can someone be so delusional to think that they know Hogan's secret when in fact they can't even master the basics of a good impact taught by all good instructor for centuries which isn't any grand secret but just good ole fundamentals. And the "Shrangrila" or "Nun-chuck" nonsense you talked about is pure garbage. You yourself can't even replicate any of the so called "Hogan secret" you talk about in your own swing. When I first saw your videos I thought it was meant to be a comedy till I realized that you're actually serious... then came the part where you sell e-books and golf clinics... Wow! Not to mention now you actually try to fix people swing or do swing analysis of actual PGA Pros. This is beyond ridiculous!

 

But I guess there's enough people with very little knowledge of the golf swing and desperate to improve to buy into the fantasy you're selling. You sir, have a typical weekend golfer's flippy swing. How in the hell do you even have the nerve to claim that you know Ben Hogan's secret and make money off of it. You should be ashamed to use his name for your own fame and profit. I bet if Hogan came back to life you'd not be able to look him in the eye and say "Mr. Hogan sir, I know your secret and have been honoring you by selling e-books and golf clinics so that your name lives on forever". Imagine what he'd say to you.

 

To prove me wrong. Please make a video where we see all of your golf shots for eighteen holes with another respected youtuber so we know it's authentic and see how you shoot in the 70s like you claim. Or better yet, become a real certified PGA teaching professional. I'm sure with your Hogan swing you can do that no problem. But my guess is you'd never pass the PAT.

 

For all you real MSE fans out there,if there's any (for I suspect most the good comments he got on his channel are not genuine). Feel free to present your side of the argument. Let's see how you're gonna defend this snake oil salesman. And for reference here's a link to the meaning of the word "charlatan" and "snake oil salesman" for your viewing pleasure.

 

char·la·tan
/ˈSHärlədən,ˈSHärlətn/
 
noun
 
  1. a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill; a fraud.
    "a self-confessed con artist and charlatan"
     
    snake oil salesman
    noun [ C ]
       disapproving
    UK  US 
     
    someone who deceives people in order to get money from them:

 

 

 

 

p.s.

And for those of you with the "who the hell are you and let us see your golf swing" approach for a retort. Give it a rest. Why? Okay lemme give you an analogy. Let's use a simple example of a watch enthusiast calling out "a fake Rolex". Does that watch enthusiast needs to be able to "make a Rolex watch" to be able to have a fair say in calling out "a fake Rolex"? No of course not. A fake Rolex will have tons of tells on the outside and nobody can fake the real movement once the case back is removed.... the same goes for Hogan's authentic movement, but in Hogan's case his movement is more like a Patek Philippe than a Rolex which is even harder to cheaply imitate and sell as real to the enthusiast of the art...

 

So in summary........ to the majority you might be able to get away with what you're doing. Actually you already did for quite a number of years now... sadly

 

But the truth is... MSE, you sir are a "FAKE"


So, there’s no possibility of you being convinced he was having a bad day? Haha!

 

Watching the video, I can agree he was not playing all that great. His swing was not too bad?

 

Another point is good teachers don’t have to be really good players, but I see that he professed to be playing well?

 

Still, I’d be willing to give him a shot to reply.

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11 minutes ago, Lincoln_Arcadia said:


So, there’s no possibility of you being convinced he was having a bad day? Haha!

 

Watching the video, I can agree he was not playing all that great. His swing was not too bad?

 

Another point is good teachers don’t have to be really good players, but I see that he professed to be playing well?

 

Still, I’d be willing to give him a shot to reply.

 

Still waiting for that 18 holes golf vlog with another respected youtuber or golf professional as witness(and no, MSE your "golf pro or club champion friends" don't count!!). 

 

I love watching playing vlogs from Kyle Birkshire, Mark Crossfield or Golfaholics. Even on their so called "bad days" we can clearly see that they can play.

 

But in MSE's case it's like watching any regular weekend golfer grind it out. But the sad thing is this "weekend golfer" has been selling people his e-books and clinics on how to swing the golf club like one of the greatest and most "consistent" striker of the ball ever. While he himself couldn't even hit one fairway in 18 holes on a very easy course!

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4 minutes ago, SwagGolf6112 said:

 

Still waiting for that 18 holes golf vlog with another respected youtuber or golf professional as witness. I don't think it'll ever happen though.

 

I love watching playing vlogs from Kyle Birkshire, Mark Crossfield or Golfaholics. Even on their so called "bad days" we can clearly see that they can play.

 

But in MSE's case it's like watching any regular weekend golfer grind it out. But the sad thing is this "weekend golfer" has been selling people his e-books and clinics on how to swing the one of the greatest and most "consistent" striker of the ball ever while he himself couldn't hit one fairway in 18 holes!


I’ve had a look at one of his self instructional videos. Other than creating awkward names for what appears to be a very minor variation, I don’t see him as a “Charlatan”.

 

The word “colorful” comes to mind as I watch his videos. If any of my instructors used terms like those, my first thought would be “wonky” hahaha!

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2 minutes ago, Lincoln_Arcadia said:


I’ve had a look at one of his self instructional videos. Other than creating awkward names for what appears to be a very minor variation, I don’t see him as a “Charlatan”.

 

The word “colorful” comes to mind as I watch his videos. If any of my instructors used terms like those, my first thought would be “wonky” hahaha!

 

His videos are entertaining and "wonky" so we have no disagreement on that front. And I'd wholeheartedly agree with everything you said sir if it wasn't for the selling e-books and golf clinics part. It's just not very ethical.

 

Otherwise why should golf professionals or any professional for that matter, even bother to take the PAT or any exam to qualify themselves right sir? If all one ever need is the "believe" that one can do it and knows enough about something to charge people for your service then all hell would break loose don't you think? 

 

MSE should at least be able to demonstrate the merit of what he's charging people to learn with at least some semblance of ability is all. And I'll stand by it until he proves otherwise. But your perspective is appreciate nevertheless. Cheers sir!

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3 hours ago, SwagGolf6112 said:

 

His videos are entertaining and "wonky" so we have no disagreement on that front. And I'd wholeheartedly agree with everything you said sir if it wasn't for the selling e-books and golf clinics part. It's just not very ethical.

 

Otherwise why should golf professionals or any professional for that matter, even bother to take the PAT or any exam to qualify themselves right sir? If all one ever need is the "believe" that one can do it and knows enough about something to charge people for your service then all hell would break loose don't you think? 

 

MSE should at least be able to demonstrate the merit of what he's charging people to learn with at least some semblance of ability is all. And I'll stand by it until he proves otherwise. But your perspective is appreciate nevertheless. Cheers sir!


Right, I see you are offended by MSE. He doesn’t have qualifications from PGA nor any other certificate of instruction such as Titleist. It’s understandable that someone who took the effort to obtain said certificates would feel slighted by someone like MSE.

 

He seems to have been doing this for quite some time, though. Admittedly, his instruction seems a bit unorthodox, likely ineffective, as he appears to be learning everything himself?

 

I watched the round with Bebetter, and you’re right. They both play about like me, definitely not scratch. For people who essentially have dedicated their lives to golf, I would think they’d both be better than they are?

 

Cheers! Don’t get too bent up over them. More to life to worry about.

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