Rules question

[scores]

In a tournament this past weekend - first hole on Labor day. Playing competitor hits a snap hook in a hazard (red stakes) then he hits a second ball Marginally close. Now he wants to hit a provisional(3rd) me and my partner who use to be a pro said you can not its lateral. He said my ball maybe lost -- its all red stakes so he hits a third ball calling it a provisional and jokes the range was not open so I need some swings in. Now he he finds his second ball in play next to the red stakes I said to  him he need to play his third ball from the tee and he lies 5 . He said I did not know it was red staked BS it was the forth day of the tournament and he had a practice round WTF.

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by scores

[goaliedad30]

I'm not a rules expert, but assuming it's a stroke play event, I think the committee would look at this as a "serious breach" and impose a DQ. Certainly for the statement "I just need some swings" ....

 

[Loki]

There is no such thing as a provisional when it comes to red and yellow stakes. As soon as he hit his second ball, that is the ball in play and hitting his third. When he hits his third ball, that is now in play and laying 5.

 

Your post is a little confusing.

[2bGood]

So to be clear, this is what I think you are saying happened: 

 

Ball 1 - known to be in the penalty area

Ball 2 - He decides to take a stroke and distance penalty and hit 3 from the tee rather than another penalty option 

Ball 3 - He hits a declared provisional thinking ball 2 could be lost outside the penalty area (given it was in play - there is no way it could be known to be in the penalty area)

 

If this is what occurred and you could not see Ball 2 in play, then he did not do anything wrong. If you hit a ball into a general area that you are uncertain if it is lost or not, not only can you hit a provisional, you should hit a provisional. 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by 2bGood

[2bGood]

19 minutes ago, Loki said:

There is no such thing as a provisional when it comes to red and yellow stakes. As soon as he hit his second ball, that is the ball in play and hitting his third. When he hits his third ball, that is now in play and laying 5.

 

Your post is a little confusing.

 True, but not entirely true. There is a model local rule that allows provisionals for Red and Yellow stakes. I find it is in play more and more often given how it helps pace on certain hole layouts.

 

For instance in what I think was described above - if his first ball looked like it was in the penalty area but were note sure and stroke and distance was his best option - with out this local rule in place the smart play would be to go look for the ball first. If not found return to the tee and hit ball #2 (hitting 3). However with the local rule in place it can save allot of time by allowing a provisional that would be played if ball number #1 was not found and deemed to be in the penalty area.

 

Not saying this local rule was in place in this event,  but due keep an eye out for it as it can save some grief. 

 

B-3

Provisional Ball for Ball in a Penalty Area

Purpose. Under Rule 18.3, a player is not allowed to play a ball provisionally if it is known or virtually certain that his or her ball is in a penalty area.

But in unusual cases, the size, shape or location of a penalty area may be such that:

• The player cannot see whether the ball is in the penalty area, 
• It would unreasonably delay play if the player had to go forward to look for the ball before returning to play another ball under penalty of stroke and distance, and 
• If the original ball is not found, it would be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the penalty area.

For such situations, to save time a Committee may choose to modify Rule 18.3:

• Rule 18.3a is modified to allow the player to play a ball provisionally under Rule 17.1d(1), Rule 17.1d(2) or, for a red penalty area, Rule 17.1d(3). 
• Rules 18.3b and 18.3c are modified to state when such a provisional ball must or may be played or abandoned, as stated in the Model Local Rule.

[Loki]

This must be a rule change with the changes they made last year. Thank you for the information as I was unaware of it.

[2bGood]

52 minutes ago, Loki said:

This must be a rule change with the changes they made last year. Thank you for the information as I was unaware of it.

B3 has been an option for several years now. Just remember that it is a local rule that courses can adopt. If it has not been adopted as local rule then a provisional is not an option as you pointed out. 

[Newby]

5 hours ago, scores said:

then he hits a second ball Marginally close. Now he wants to hit a provisional(3rd) me and my partner who use to be a pro said you can not its lateral. He said my ball maybe lost -- its all red stakes so he hits a third ball calling it a provisional 

 

Regardless of the Local Rule red herring. If he was in genuine doubt about that second ball being in the penalty area (ie it may have been lost outside the PA), he was entitled to play a provisional. The nature of that area is, as yet, unknown to us.

[Augster]

Is there rough leading up to the PA on his second ball? Is the ball rolling and ends up not visible? 
 

It’s a very low bar to clear to be allowed to hit a provisional. The ROG uses the very loose term “may”, as in, “if the ball may be lost OB or outside a PA” a provisional ball is allowable. 
 

Anytime a ball is not visible from the tee and there is any chance it may be lost OB or outside a PA, the player is allowed to hit a provisional. The old “no provisional allowed because the ball might be in a hazard” “rule” is an old wives tale. All you have to ask is, “Could the ball be lost outside the PA or OB?” In almost all situations where you can’t visibly see the ball, the answer is nearly always yes. 
 

Player is hitting his 4th shot using his second ball. 

[Hawkeye77]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

Regardless of the Local Rule red herring. If he was in genuine doubt about that second ball being in the penalty area (ie it may have been lost outside the PA), he was entitled to play a provisional. The nature of that area is, as yet, unknown to us.

 

Not sure I'd call the helpful citation to the Local Rule a "red herring"? 

[Hawkeye77]

Correct answer seems to have been found and affirmed several times.

 

Just as a FWIW, the "need some swings" was referred to in the OP as a joke and no reason to suggest it would have a consequence as a comment in the context of the situation as presented. 

[2bGood]

12 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Not sure I'd call the helpful citation to the Local Rule a "red herring"? 

 

I did not take it as dig. B-3 is can be a bit of distraction in these discussion. I always tend to point it out as I am shocked how many people never bother to check on the local rules of the course they are playing. I also introduced it at our club, so I have a soft spot for it. 

[Sawgrass]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Correct answer seems to have been found and affirmed several times.

 

Just as a FWIW, the "need some swings" was referred to in the OP as a joke and no reason to suggest it would have a consequence as a comment in the context of the situation as presented. 

Yeah, that "need some swings" thing was a red herring.  ?

[2bGood]

22 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Yeah, that "need some swings" thing was a red herring.  ?

 Who has not said that after a few provisionals.

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

2 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 Who has not said that after a few provisionals.

 

 

 

My OBs are so far off the course, no need to even pretend they are provisionals, lol, but yes!

 

35 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Yeah, that "need some swings" thing was a red herring.  ?

 

LOL.

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

I did not take it as dig. B-3 is can be a bit of distraction in these discussion. I always tend to point it out as I am shocked how many people never bother to check on the local rules of the course they are playing. I also introduced it at our club, so I have a soft spot for it. 

 

Just my reaction to "red herring" in terms of what it means.  I thought your first answer was complete and the second was an interesting supplement, so wasn't seeing any intent to throw anyone off.  I don't think it was meant as a dig, either.

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

 I don't think it was meant as a dig, either.

You wrote it. If you don't know, how is anyone else to know ?

[nsxguy]

14 hours ago, scores said:

In a tournament this past weekend - first hole on Labor day. Playing competitor hits a snap hook in a hazard (red stakes) then he hits a second ball Marginally close. Now he wants to hit a provisional(3rd) me and my partner who use to be a pro said you can not its lateral. He said my ball maybe lost -- its all red stakes so he hits a third ball calling it a provisional and jokes the range was not open so I need some swings in. Now he he finds his second ball in play next to the red stakes I said to  him he need to play his third ball from the tee and he lies 5 . He said I did not know it was red staked BS it was the forth day of the tournament and he had a practice round WTF.

 

You were incorrect (as the evidence ultimately proved).

Edited September 9, 2020 by nsxguy

[Hawkeye77]

38 minutes ago, Newby said:

You wrote it. If you don't know, how is anyone else to know ?

 

Really? Since the sentence was grammatically correct and doesn't suggest not knowing, but rather an opinion, why this nonsense? 

 

 

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

My OBs are so far off the course, no need to even pretend they are provisionals, lol, but yes!

 

 

LOL.

 For comic effect I often declare a provisional for a ball that went 30 yards OB ?.

 

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by 2bGood

[Hawkeye77]

5 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 For comic effect I often declare provisional for a ball that went 30 yards OB ?.

 

 

 

DQ!!!!!

[2bGood]

8 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

DQ!!!!!

 

You never know! Okay new thread coming on that topic. 

[scores]

he played three prior rounds one a practice round

 

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, scores said:

he played three prior rounds one a practice round

 

 

So ?

 

Dude, you posted this thread over 2 WEEKS ago. Multiple people have commented it's confusing and multiple people have asked questions.

 

And THIS is what you post when you finally come back ?

 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by nsxguy

[davep043]

10 minutes ago, scores said:

he played three prior rounds one a practice round

 

If he did not see the ball specifically enter the Penalty Area, and it was possible that the ball could be lost in rough outside the Penalty Area, he is completely within the rules to play a provisional.  Here's the Interpretation, in case you haven't made the effort to review the rule on your own:

 

18.3a/1 – When Player May Play Provisional Ball
When a player is deciding whether he or she is allowed to play a provisional ball, only the information that is known by the player at that time is considered.

Examples where a provisional ball may be played include when:

The original ball might be in a penalty area, but it might also be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds.

[scores]

nsxguy - I have not been on the site in two weeks.

 

[nsxguy]

5 minutes ago, scores said:

nsxguy - I have not been on the site in two weeks.

 

 

And your point is ?

 

So you just got back. OK, no problem, even though people who start threads are generally more interested in the subsequent posts. But whatever. Why post what you did instead of reading through your OWN thread, which obviously you're interested in or you wouldn't have started it, and start answering the "questions" asked of you ?

 

And BTW, when responding to someone, for various reasons, try using the "Quote" function - so they know you've responded - it's in the lower left hand corner of every post.

[LeoLeo99]

On 9/8/2020 at 11:53 PM, Loki said:

There is no such thing as a provisional when it comes to red and yellow stakes. As soon as he hit his second ball, that is the ball in play and hitting his third. When he hits his third ball, that is now in play and laying 5.

 

Your post is a little confusing.

 

His second ball is in play.  The 3rd ball was a provisional if the 2nd ball was lost in the general area that was not needed.