subzero driver for 85 mph swing speed?

[Perrkka]

As I understand it, if you want to hit it straight, you want as much backspin as possible not the opposite. A 7 iron goes straighter than a 5 iron etc.

[Striker Ace]

2 hours ago, pholway said:

I live in chevy chase MD - probably going to golfdom to demo it. you?

Fort Gratiot, MI going to Golf Country. Bummer I was hoping to meet a fellow GolfWXR haha. 

[Tiptx1122]

22 hours ago, gwelfgulfer said:

 

Dismiss away, but it's just showing that you really aren't interested in anything other than having people reinforce the idea you've presented regardless of merit.

 

Has nothing to do with a 'keyboard warrior', you're just not good at actually accepting an answer and then try to act like it's others fault for calling you out on your own stupidity.

 

Just lock this up, as you've clearly already made up your mind pro...

Very well said as if you want an honest answer be ready to accept the facts and put your ego aside. No one was coming across as a snob. 

[Tiptx1122]

22 hours ago, gwelfgulfer said:

 

Dismiss away, but it's just showing that you really aren't interested in anything other than having people reinforce the idea you've presented regardless of merit.

 

Has nothing to do with a 'keyboard warrior', you're just not good at actually accepting an answer and then try to act like it's others fault for calling you out on your own stupidity.

 

Just lock this up, as you've clearly already made up your mind pro...

Very well said as if you want an honest answer be ready to accept the facts and put your ego aside. No one was coming across as a snob. 

[Tiptx1122]

22 hours ago, gwelfgulfer said:

 

Dismiss away, but it's just showing that you really aren't interested in anything other than having people reinforce the idea you've presented regardless of merit.

 

Has nothing to do with a 'keyboard warrior', you're just not good at actually accepting an answer and then try to act like it's others fault for calling you out on your own stupidity.

 

Just lock this up, as you've clearly already made up your mind pro...

Very well said as if you want an honest answer be ready to accept the facts and put your ego aside. No one was coming across as a snob. 

 

22 hours ago, Striker Ace said:

I do not slice with the Srixon Z 785 when I swing without setting the wrist, it reaches the fairway. Not so with the "draw" drivers and the overly large heads they want to go straight left. If I set the wrist I either get a push fade or a slice. BTW you come off as a snob.

He was just trying to give you some help. You don't even know this man and then you want to talk about his Grand kids. Wow just go to a fitter as you would be better off then looking for help here but don't be surprise if you hear the same thing.

[GSDriver]

If high spin player, yes a SZ will work.  I've found my Epic Flash AI SZ to be among the best drivers I've ever owned and there have been dozens over the years.

[pup142]

The best Driver for a person that swings 85 Mph or less is the XXIO Prime Driver. Bought the Prime 9 Driver on EBay and what a difference It has made for me. Had the Callaway Epic before that with 3 different shafts and there is no comparison. XXIO gets great reviews for a reason.

[nsxguy]

On 9/9/2020 at 3:32 PM, Striker Ace said:

I guess I will have to try it out and see how it performs for me but what are your thoughts about this driver for a slower swing speed like mine? My theory is that it may produce less side spin therefore reducing the slice. I'm also not a fan of the big bulky drivers like the Mavrik Max so please do not give me the standard response of the "forgiving" drivers, thanks. Additionally, I have tried the Srixon Z 785 driver and it was pretty much point and shoot with only slight curvature either way depending on a heel or toe strike. I like that driver but I have that dang sub zero on my mind because I would prefer the driver to match my current set of irons. 

 

22 hours ago, hammergolf said:

I will tell you this, the closer you get to 17* launch and 1700rpms of spin will provide longer drives regardless of ball speed. 

 

If you've read enough here on WRX you'd know that almost ALL driver heads are right around 460CC, SAME as the 785. Some are 450CC and 1 or 2 are 440CC. Held up, or even next to a larger one you'd not be able to tell the difference. The only difference is the overall shaping of the head.

 

So I'm guessing you don't like the drivers that seem more "stretched out"/"pancaked" from above, not the actual size of them. I forget which but 1 of the Mavrik heads is "stretched" towards the back, the other 2 are more "normal". As I recall though the 785 is fairly large (from above), no ?

 

Anywho, the head is only a part of the equation. It's about optimizing your launch conditions no matter what your swing speed while having as forgiving a driver as you can while finding the center of the club face as often as possible.

 

17/1700, as hammer stated, is just about optimal BUT, slight misses spin-wise around the 1700 spin rate with any sort of off-axis strike can produce some really ugly results. Slower swing speeds generally work better with a bit more speed, probably to the mid 2000s. Yes, a 2500 spin rate will give you a bit less distance than the 1700 BUT it will likely give you better control/dispersion at a relatively minor cost in distance. So while 17/1700 may be the best unless you are very consistent, you probably want more spin.

 

You want "point and shoot" ? The Ping G400 MAX is about as point and shoot as you can get. The 410(?) version isn't around (yet ?).

 

As the shilg-meister alluded to a gain of 20 yards of carry will only happen if your current driver is terribly ill fit.

 

Point is, it's the combination of head and shaft, and finding the sweet spot. You might want to eventually cut the shaft down a bit to 45, maybe 44.75 inches. Any extremely slight distance loss from such a small reduction in length should be more than made up for by more center strikes. You can test this with longer shafts - just choke down a bit.

 

One other thing - don't go too light on the shaft. You're in the "regular" range but weight is probably more important. 60 grams should be fine. Don't be tempted by a 50gram shaft for distance - it won't be much more than a 60 gram shaft and you may have trouble controlling the swing with too light a shaft.

 

Good luck on your fitting tomorrow.

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by nsxguy

[nsxguy]

[dupe - sorry]

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by nsxguy

[Striker Ace]

Good post nsxguy, this is the type of response that I can respect. 

Yes, the head on the 785 only appears to be more compact if you will compared to the standard and max versions of the Mavrik but that is enough to sway my decision either way. I have yet to try the sub zero but I assume that it will suit my eye like the 785 does.

I don't expect great results from the sub zero as I am not a better player but we will see. Anyway, nice post and thank you for the chalk full of good information. 

[Carolina Golfer 2]

On 9/9/2020 at 3:32 PM, Striker Ace said:

I guess I will have to try it out and see how it performs for me but what are your thoughts about this driver for a slower swing speed like mine? My theory is that it may produce less side spin therefore reducing the slice. I'm also not a fan of the big bulky drivers like the Mavrik Max so please do not give me the standard response of the "forgiving" drivers, thanks. Additionally, I have tried the Srixon Z 785 driver and it was pretty much point and shoot with only slight curvature either way depending on a heel or toe strike. I like that driver but I have that dang sub zero on my mind because I would prefer the driver to match my current set of irons. 

A cloned swing match for you here.  I am 87-90 mph. Its not out of the question for me to be near 3200 spin, but mostly 2800 to 2900.  

 

I had been playing the Titleist TS1 for s year snd doing well with it.  But too much spin snd it just died out around the 180 to 185 mark and fell out of the sky. 
 

Got with a fitter and wound up with a 9.0 Sub Zero with a Rogue White shaft.  After s few low hooks, We did end up lofting it up to 11.0 and that was the magic pill.   Carry went up an average of 14 yards, nice high ball flight and  just as importantly it hit the ground running. The TS1 pretty much stopped shortly after landing. 
Spin is around 2600 to 2700 launch is in the 16.0 range.  I can still improve the smash factor s bit and probably pick up another 15 yards of carry. 
 

So all this to say, yes it definitely could work with our swing speeds.  I think its important to get fit on a LM with it if you can. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hack Daddy]

It will be worse. The sub zero line is 2-3° flatter (lie angle). Your slice will turn into a massive push slice. 

 

People like to pretend lie angle doesnt matter in drivers, but it's critical...

[dmeeksDC]

Well, two heads being 460cc does not mean they are the same sized footprint, it means they are 460cc in volume. They’re not required to be the same ‘size’ to hit that number. The relative width, height and depth of the heads determines how that 460cc is distributed and that can create footprints of all sizes when you’re at address. If you had a driver that was 1 inch tall and 460cc, that’s going to be a giant saucer. If its 6 inches tall, it’s a lot smaller footprint viewed from above.
 

i have the 585, not the 785. The 585 is a bit more stretched. Took some comparison photos with what drivers I have on hand. View from address is left to right Titleist 917D2, z585 and Mavrik Max. Photo from ground level shows the height of the Srixon (in the middle). Camera angles don’t always capture these dimensions correctly but viewed from address the Max is definitely the largest of these three. The Srixon is also noticeably deeper faced, and is a little more quickly tapered on the sides. Lots of ways to get to 460. 
 

I do think it’s not a big deal to adjust to a bigger shape if the driver is working. Worth the time if so. I went for the Max based on great reviews and those are totally legit. It’s long. I spin it a lot.  Not keen on a 45.75 inch driver, but that’s fixable. But if you have driver issues, could be a savior. I probably should have went with the standard or possibly the SZ. 

[Striker Ace]

Good illustration dmeeks, makes sense. I may just end up getting a 3 wood instead if the sub zero does not work out. I hit a fairway off the tee straight all day long.

 

[sharkiesj]

I think you need to look at the Ping G400.  Not the Max.  The 440 head.  Awesome driver.   It plays way more forgiving than its size, plus I’m sure you’ll pick up a few more mph’s clubhead speed as advertised because it’s not 460cc.  Plus it’s dirt cheap and it will sound like a real driver as opposed to the Cally SZ, which sounds like, well, never mind..  Don’t sleep on Ping.  

[PJE]

I don't have that fast of a swing speed (right around 90-95) but I've had really good results with low spin drivers with a regular flex shaft. I think it depends on your swing angle of attack, the shaft's compatibility with  your swing and your swing's compatibility with the driver lie angle- flatter angles take away the left side.

I have a Nike Vapor Fly Pro driver with a Tensei CK Blue shaft set at 10.5 degrees that will regularly go about 240 with roll. Really good strikes go further.

I also have a Ping G400 LST 10 degree, cut down to 45.25 with an 18 gram weight in the back (instead of the standard 13 to make up for the swingweight lost with the shaft butt trimming) with the standard Ping shaft that also goes about 250 with roll. 

So, I think the experiment with the Mavrik could work out. 

[Exactice808]

@nsxguy Great post as always!  I want to add some piggy back context if possible
 

@Striker Ace,  First off,  just a quick note so it does not go off the rails.   Details help to solidify a quantifiable answer.  GolfWRX are full of very knowledgeable people with good intentions. Providing more info rather then starting out with the "Forum police" already sets the tone.  Getting past that. Can allow for more doors to open and greater validation.

 

 

OK got that out of the way.  Context.

 

SLDR,  one of the greatest Low spin heads out there. high amounts of mass moved forward to reduce spin greatly.  Loft up campaign increased Launch angles and then Marketed to the masses.  Why?   Well by averages most amateurs  struggle with slices,  Most struggles with AOA issues causing spin loft issues thus flipping and more spin issues.  Thus launch issue and people having a hard time getting the ball in the air.

 

Tour pro's had the SLDR in for half a season and quickly switched? Why is that?  Well it was not optimal for them.  Why?  Well, Loft up was not an issue.  Spin was not much of an issue. the huge amount of MOI loss due to the weight shifted forward was not an equitable trade off.

 

Numbers,  For the amateur, it could be.   85mph swing speed. x 1.5 = 127mph max effective ballspeed.

15* launch angle with lets say a large amount of spin 3500rpms,  =

195.7 carry, 201.8 total

 

Now what if we "lofted" up and reduced spin? SAME max effective ball speeds

 

127mph, 19* Launch angle and 2500rpms of spin which is some what achievable by a lower spin head as well as a slight swing tweak.

 

203.7 carry and 211.1 total,  

 

 

8 yard carry increase and a 10 yard total increase.  Thats pretty big, just by reducing spin and increasing launch.

 

 

IF you "can" obtain these through a driver head change.

 

This is what happened with a lot of the SLDR players.  They were able to get artificial distance from their current abilities, 

 

Now what is the trade of?  MOI issues and the reduce forgiveness factor due to the inherent design of the clubs.   Miss hits are more punishing to loss of ball speed on these types of low spin driver heads.   BUT here was the thing.  When you catch it right, you get LONGER bombs than your normal anticipated shots with the forgiving drivers. YET when the amateur missed, it was a punshing miss, but the player chalked it up as bad shot and moved on.

This differed to the tour pro where their miss is smaller,  but if the punishment was greater loss of ball speed, they would give up the lower and forward CG giving a reduction in spin, for better forgiveness and tweak their swing and shaft to optimize their ball flight.

 

 

OK now the idea is.

 

1) If your Launch window numbers actually benefit from a lower spinning head, as I display above,  you have spin issues in the 3000+rpms.  You have Launch angle issues that a tweak of the head could help.  Than YES you could get a lower spinning head from all the manufactures.  TM, Sim, regular,  Callaway SubZero Model,  Ping LST model,  Titleist D4 models.

 

*Edit* You mention reducing side spin,  while yes a lower spin head is a lower spin head, but this just indicates by flight law issues, if you hare having slices, that would be a swing path issue and or a swing issue that is causing additional unwanted side spin.  This could better be fixed by a swing correction rather than a band-aid driver head.

 

These would all have the probability of reducing your spin artificially and giving you some additional yards based on the shot window.

 

2) Issue at hand was what is your Numbers?  if you are actually spinning it 2500rpms, reducing your spin more could squeeze down a couple more RPMS, but now you are going to a very non forgiving head and will be punished greatly for less than optimal strikes compared to the manufacturers brethren that is more forgiving across the face. due to high MOI. Which you could hit fine and have manageable spin and launch.

 

3) Absolute answer is if you suffer from a slice, (as you mentiond "my theory is that it may produce less side spin there for reducing the slice")  while the theory makes sense this is a band-aid to a fundamental problem that could be fixed by a swing update and practice.

 

 

 

Anyways... Data just helps narrow down your options.  $300 to $500 for a Subzero low spin driver,  could be better served with one or 2 good instruction/classes. A fitting or jumping on a monitor to validate your launch window so the realities can be seen!

 

GL OP.  I think I read you are going to a fitting.  GRAB all the data you can to really narrow down what is with your swing!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Exactice808

[Striker Ace]

The fitting went well, I cannot remember all of the data but I hit the BB B21 fairway 5 wood 202 yards and the B21 5 hybrid 168 yards average. My swing speed was up in the 90's. So I ended up with those two clubs because they were laser straight. I even hit the fairway from the deck with crazy ease, after a little instruction of how to swing a fairway wood which was a bonus. I'm going to hold off on the driver until after I can get a couple of lessons for it. Overall I am super excited about these clubs.

 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Striker Ace

[Striker Ace]

18 hours ago, Hack Daddy said:

It will be worse. The sub zero line is 2-3° flatter (lie angle). Your slice will turn into a massive push slice. 

 

People like to pretend lie angle doesnt matter in drivers, but it's critical...

I was definitely curving my shots with the Mavrik and yes the slice was amplified. I ended up with the BB B21 line as it was MUCH more forgiving.

[pricenicky]

I USE THE 10.5 Mavrik SZ and have a ss of 85 mph.It replaced my flash 10.5 and is about 10 - 15YDS longer.My aoa is - 2-3  degrees.  How ?  I use a GD IZ 4R1 at 45" / no tip / 225 cpm / d3. ; adjusted plus 2 to 12.5.Good numbers and roll out.My 3 wood flash SZ 15 adjusted to 16.5 with GD FW 55 R1   1 " tip at 43 " /d3/ 245 cpm. 321 gr overall.This 3 wood beat my xxio 3 WOOD which  I thought was perfect.

 

Get the right shaft / adjust loft  to fit the numbers.

[nsxguy]

13 minutes ago, pricenicky said:

I USE THE 10.5 Mavrik SZ and have a ss of 85 mph.It replaced my flash 10.5 and is about 10 - 15YDS longer.My aoa is - 2-3  degrees.  How ?  I use a GD IZ 4R1 at 45" / no tip / 225 cpm / d3. ; adjusted plus 2 to 12.5.Good numbers and roll out.My 3 wood flash SZ 15 adjusted to 16.5 with GD FW 55 R1   1 " tip at 43 " /d3/ 245 cpm. 321 gr overall.This 3 wood beat my xxio 3 WOOD which  I thought was perfect.

 

Get the right shaft / adjust loft  to fit the numbers.

 

May I ask what your launch conditions are ?

 

I find the Mav SZ spins quite a bit less than the Flash SZ (although you only said "Flash")

[pricenicky]

my launch conditions 13- 14 degrees and remember I hit down 2- 3 degrees.The adjustment of plus 2 to 12.5 helped.The other head is an epic flash 10.5 

[pricenicky]

On 9/11/2020 at 6:25 PM, Striker Ace said:

I was definitely curving my shots with the Mavrik and yes the slice was amplified. I ended up with the BB B21 line as it was MUCH more forgiving.

the point about lie angle is correct.My xxio 3 wood was 57 degrees which created a hook / closed scenario.The epic sz 3 wood does spin low but adding 1.5 loft worked great and no hook ; but it does not hit high due to low spin but runs a long way

[nsxguy]

28 minutes ago, pricenicky said:

my launch conditions 13- 14 degrees and remember I hit down 2- 3 degrees.The adjustment of plus 2 to 12.5 helped.The other head is an epic flash 10.5 

 

Spin rate ?