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Smashdn

the usga failing remark isn’t about this one event, it is about failing a generation of golfers who can play with no fear because the governing bodies didn’t regulate the equipment properly. The result is the winner can ignore accuracy over length. Remember he still hit more fairways than average.  Wedges into par 5 holes are supposed to be for 3 rd shots. Wingfoot was over 800 yards shorter than it should be to test the players who can hit 230 yd 5 irons.  The usga got the champion they deserve.

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If there is one thing this forum loves, it’s making sweeping statements about a tournament on a Thursday. 

It's extremely rare to see a guy use a non-standard set of clubs, science, technology and a complete change in body mass (in combination) to get better results.  That sort of “season-to-season” missio

info normally found in a properly constructed thread, esp a major ... just sayin!: TV Thursday, September 17: 7:30 a.m.-2 p.m. ET (Golf Channel); 2-5 p.m. ET (NBC)Friday, September 18: 9:30

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37 minutes ago, Sean2 said:

I read in the GolfWRX newsletter, he uses a device that measures his putts in miles per hour. "So, he knows how far to swing his arm-lock putter to produce a particular speed, therefore a precise distance. Then, he takes slope and break into account, using the same device." He sure does think outside the box. 

it's 'outside the box' to gauge how far a putt roll based on the length of backswing? ... the device might be new, but the intent isn't ... i do that myself ... not very well, however ... 

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As this thread continues to veer off topic I will add to that situation. I think the whole distance argument is a solution looking for a problem. What does it matter how far people hit the ball. It is rare that the top driver of the ball wins unless he is one of the top putters that week as well. There is so much gnashing of teeth over what club people are hitting into greens. If today's players are hitting 46 degree 35.5" PW into a green that Hale Irwin used a 44 degree 35.5" 8 iron in 1974 what does it matter?

 

With the increase in strength, size and fitness of today's players coupled with a different view on how to play the game you will never see the 70's return no matter how much they would roll back equipment. 

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To put it in perspective, after 4 rounds of golf only 1 player was under par, and it was single digits.  So bomb and wedge may leave a chalky taste in your mouth, but you still have to get the ball in the hole.

 

You don't like the approach... change the ball... otherwise adapt, get stronger, get more flexible, and do the same thing.

 

 

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3 hours ago, gvogel said:

Bobby Jones did not play single length irons.  His 2 and 3-iron were the same length, his 4 and 5-iron were the same length, 6 and 7-iron were the same length, you get the drift.  But the lengths were graduated.  And that was on only one of his sets.

 

AFter doing some research, it turns out that Jones designed a set of steel shafted clubs for Spaulding in 1930 that had clubs matched in pairs - as I outlined above.  However, Jones was still playing hickory at that time, and his clubs were not single length.

OK, I stand corrected, but my information came from the talking heads at the Open. It's interesting that Jones only same lengthed in pairs, have to wonder why and how were they lofted. 

Edited by disco111
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10 hours ago, Ferguson said:

 

He's focused and driven, an ever rarer condition in this modern society.   

 

It's refreshing to see a guy set lofty goals, create a path; then stay on the path and do the hard work to get there.  

He makes me want to watch golf. 

 

Bryson, the brand, is now a proven concept.   

I hope he wins 10 more majors.   

 

 

Spare me that focused and driven crap. You could literally say that about every guy on tour. It's not that rare. As far as golf goes, he's a great player. But let's hold off on anointing him as anything yet. Everyone thought Spieth was gonna be on top forever too.

 

None of that has anything to do with his crappy, whiny personality and general unlikability.

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20 minutes ago, jons1 said:

To put it in perspective, after 4 rounds of golf only 1 player was under par, and it was single digits.  So bomb and wedge may leave a chalky taste in your mouth, but you still have to get the ball in the hole.

 

You don't like the approach... change the ball... otherwise adapt, get stronger, get more flexible, and do the same thing.

 

 

"But...but...I don't want the game to leave me behind, but I also don't want to work as hard as I would need to in order to stay competitive.  I just want things to stay the same forever." ? 

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3 hours ago, munichop said:

Smashdn

the usga failing remark isn’t about this one event, it is about failing a generation of golfers who can play with no fear because the governing bodies didn’t regulate the equipment properly. The result is the winner can ignore accuracy over length. Remember he still hit more fairways than average.  Wedges into par 5 holes are supposed to be for 3 rd shots. Wingfoot was over 800 yards shorter than it should be to test the players who can hit 230 yd 5 irons.  The usga got the champion they deserve.

 

With that clarification I agree with you.  I thought you were remarking on the set-up.  Equipment I am alignment with you on.

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38 minutes ago, Kilo1545 said:

"But...but...I don't want the game to leave me behind, but I also don't want to work as hard as I would need to in order to stay competitive.  I just want things to stay the same forever." ? 

And....and....I just want to play the game my father played and my grandfather played and my great grandfather played because that's the way the architect intended.....LOL!

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6 hours ago, torbill said:

I clearly remember people hating Jack when he was beating Arnie, and they claimed that he had a bad personality.  A lot of people hated Bill Gates for the tactics he used to get Microsoft up and going, and said he was a jerk.  They hated Steve Jobs and said the same thing about his personality.  Now a lot of them hate Elon Musk.  And along comes young Bryson de Chambeau, into the fray, re-thinking old ideas.  People who forge change, who rock the boat, who innovate, have strong ideas and personalities, and they take a lot of folks out of their zone of comfort and familiarity.  Agents of change are seldom popular in their time.

 

Why couldn't Bryson challenge the status quo on single-length irons, muscling up, misting his range balls, etc., without acting entitled, being rude to rules officials, being overly self-promoting on social media, cussing out a cameraman doing his job because it hurt bryson's "brand", etc.?  If so, then we'd be able to judge people for disliking him solely for his "rocking the boat" characteristics, rather than the examples of him behaving poorly....

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45 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

And....and....I just want to play the game my father played and my grandfather played and my great grandfather played because that's the way the architect intended.....LOL!

I actually do understand that mentality.  There's a lot of nostalgia in golf, more so than in many other sports.  I honestly don't have a strong opinion either way on whether or not they need to reign things in equipment/course wise.  I just know that until that decision has been made, one way or another, the professionals have a choice - get passed up or put in the work to stay competitive.

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4 minutes ago, Kilo1545 said:

I actually do understand that mentality.  There's a lot of nostalgia in golf, more so than in many other sports.  I honestly don't have a strong opinion either way on whether or not they need to reign things in equipment/course wise.  I just know that until that decision has been made, one way or another, the professionals have a choice - get passed up or put in the work to stay competitive.

Thanks for understanding the poke at the rollback folks and meant in jest....some on this board do not have the mental capacity to distinguish humor from reality...maybe I need to post when sarcasm is involved....LOL!

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8 hours ago, johnseg said:

As this thread continues to veer off topic I will add to that situation. I think the whole distance argument is a solution looking for a problem. What does it matter how far people hit the ball. It is rare that the top driver of the ball wins unless he is one of the top putters that week as well. There is so much gnashing of teeth over what club people are hitting into greens. If today's players are hitting 46 degree 35.5" PW into a green that Hale Irwin used a 44 degree 35.5" 8 iron in 1974 what does it matter?

 

With the increase in strength, size and fitness of today's players coupled with a different view on how to play the game you will never see the 70's return no matter how much they would roll back equipment. 

Should we let them hit it 1 mile?

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On 9/22/2020 at 3:52 AM, Ferguson said:

Bryson:

 

Scientific Approach

Uses Logic and Sound Reasoning

Capitalizes on Strength and Size

Plays the Driver to his Advantage

US Open wins: 1

 

 

 

Phil:

 

Erroneous Approach

Uses Senselessness and Poor Judgement

Ignores Strength and Relies on “tasty” 9 irons

Plays the Driver away from Targets

US Open wins: 0

 

 

 

US Open appearances

 

PM: 29

 

BAD: 6

There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.
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17 hours ago, disco111 said:

OK, I stand corrected, but my information came from the talking heads at the Open. It's interesting that Jones only same lengthed in pairs, have to wonder why and how were they lofted. 

That rubbish about Jones and single length clubs was started by Bryson's coach.  No one has fact checked him.

As mentioned, Jones designed a set with matching pair clubs, but still were overall graduated in length.  The lofts would have varied by each club.

 

By the way, I play a set of hickory irons from time to time that Jones designed for Spaulding with another pro and club designer, Victor East.  My 3-iron in that set is 27*, the same as my 2012 AP1 5-iron.  My Victor East 7-iron is 42*, the same as my AP2 (2014) 9-iron.  The club head design is early muscle back.

Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
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1 minute ago, gvogel said:

That rubbish about Jones and single length clubs was started by Bryson's coach.  No one has fact checked him.

As mentioned, Jones designed a set with matching pair clubs, but still were overall graduated in length.  The lofts would have varied by each club.

 

By the way, I play a set of hickory irons from time to time that Jones designed for Spaulding with another pro and club designer, Victor East.  My 3-iron in that set is 27*, the same as my 2012 AP1 5-iron.  My Victor East 7-iron is 42*, the same as my AP2 (2014) 9-iron.  The club head design is early muscle back.

 

The Titleist CNCPT irons that 'debuted' today have a 43* PW.

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There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.
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15 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Thanks for understanding the poke at the rollback folks and meant in jest....some on this board do not have the mental capacity to distinguish humor from reality...maybe I need to post when sarcasm is involved....LOL!

You really miss sparring with 15th.

Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing-glove.  P.G. Wodehouse
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18 hours ago, johnseg said:

As this thread continues to veer off topic I will add to that situation. I think the whole distance argument is a solution looking for a problem. What does it matter how far people hit the ball. It is rare that the top driver of the ball wins unless he is one of the top putters that week as well. There is so much gnashing of teeth over what club people are hitting into greens. If today's players are hitting 46 degree 35.5" PW into a green that Hale Irwin used a 44 degree 35.5" 8 iron in 1974 what does it matter?

 

With the increase in strength, size and fitness of today's players coupled with a different view on how to play the game you will never see the 70's return no matter how much they would roll back equipment. 

I dont think its so much as the driver as it is the players them self and the ball. Players today are so much stronger and swing so much faster then back in the past. Hell I bet Tiger swings just as fast today as he did when he won the 1997 masters maybe slower. I would say i bet Jack swung no where even close to Tiger, Rory, Dustin back in his prime. But I think the ball is 50% of the distance gains and the other 25% is fitness and the the rest is golf clubs. There is nothing other than size and weight that restricts the ball. I think there is a video out by Rick Sheilds where he hit the latest Prov1 vs the Titleist Pro 90and there was a difference in spin, distance and carry and it was not by a little bit but by a huge margin. The 20 year old ball only carried 269 and total distance was 288 wile the Pro v1 carried 280 and total 300 that's a huge gain.

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DRIVER - TITLEIST 915 D3 8.5 MITSUBISHI DIAMANA D+ LIMITED WHITEBOARD 70 S

3 WOOD- TITLEIST 909 F3 15* MATRIX OZIK HD9 S

2 HYBRID- ADAMS A12 PRO 18* ALDILA RIP VS PROTO 80 STIFF.

3-PW- TITLEIST DCI 762B DYNAMIC GOLD S400

WEDGES-CLEVELAND 588 FORGED RAW 54/58 TT Dynamic Gold S300

PUTTER- ODYSSEY 2BALL MID WHITE HOT COUNTERBALANCED 

BALL- TITLEIST PRO V1X 2019/2021

3 IRON WILL BE SWAPED FOR A 3 HYBRID DEPENDING ON COURSE LENGHT.

3 HYBRID ADAMS A12 PRO 20* DYNAMIC GOLD S400.

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37 minutes ago, jons1 said:

To put it in perspective, after 4 rounds of golf only 1 player was under par, and it was single digits.  So bomb and wedge may leave a chalky taste in your mouth, but you still have to get the ball in the hole.

 

You don't like the approach... change the ball... otherwise adapt, get stronger, get more flexible, and do the same thing.

 

 

 Or if you are inclined to think that bomb and gouge was still effective in this application, what would the score had been if there were more folks "playing for position" or attempting the fairways and greens approach?

 

That's the "traditional" US Open approach but I think it just goes to show that there is no [rational] rough length that will hamper a pro with a wedge in his hand to the degree that he must throttle back.

 

Question for the group, objectively think about this, if you were to estimate your "degrees of offline" would you be more, less, or the same with your driver, irons, wedges or putter?  Or, what is a worse dispersion, hitting five shots with your driver 300 yards with 15 yards of dispersion left and right or hitting a 7i 180 with 10 yards of dispersion?  What about your putter vs a full wedge shot?  

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1 hour ago, Shanks2424 said:

I dont think its so much as the driver as it is the players them self and the ball. Players today are so much stronger and swing so much faster then back in the past. Hell I bet Tiger swings just as fast today as he did when he won the 1997 masters maybe slower. I would say i bet Jack swung no where even close to Tiger, Rory, Dustin back in his prime. But I think the ball is 50% of the distance gains and the other 25% is fitness and the the rest is golf clubs. There is nothing other than size and weight that restricts the ball. I think there is a video out by Rick Sheilds where he hit the latest Prov1 vs the Titleist Pro 90and there was a difference in spin, distance and carry and it was not by a little bit but by a huge margin. The 20 year old ball only carried 269 and total distance was 288 wile the Pro v1 carried 280 and total 300 that's a huge gain.

Jack could poke it 300+ yards with a 43 inch steel shafted persimmon driver.  Even with some healthy roll-out, you need some serious clubhead speed to do that.  

 

I completely agree about the ball though.  The ball may be the most impressive piece of modern golf equipment from a performance standpoint. 

Edited by Dr. Block
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I think in any sport we have to accept evolution, not only in terms of physicality and the generations on generations of knowledge building but also the arena that golf is played in is also evolving (trees grow, bunkers get reshaped, fairways get pinched, yardage added, greens redone, sub air systems) its part of the game. 

 

Why not go back to gutta percha if you want to keep tradition alive. 

 

I just don't see why they don't just change par if a specific over or under par is the objective. No matter what you do the guy hitting it the longest and putting the best still usually wins on Sunday and that was Bryson... 

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13 hours ago, freowho said:

Should we let them hit it 1 mile?

If they can why not. The equipment is more or less capped. They are just using more and more science to squeeze a little more out of it. I just don't really have an issue with distance.

 

I think it is funny when people say watching them hit driver wedge into greens is boring but watching them hit driver 7-iron isn't. What club a player has it their hands does not change my perception of the shot. I don't find a 5-iron more exciting than a 9-iron.

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36 minutes ago, johnseg said:

If they can why not. The equipment is more or less capped. They are just using more and more science to squeeze a little more out of it. I just don't really have an issue with distance.

 

I think it is funny when people say watching them hit driver wedge into greens is boring but watching them hit driver 7-iron isn't. What club a player has it their hands does not change my perception of the shot. I don't find a 5-iron more exciting than a 9-iron.

I mean, come on... Tiger's 4 iron at the Ryder cup wasn't the most exciting shot you've ever seen?

 

tiger-club-twirl.gif

There's definitely something more important that I should be doing.
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6 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

I mean, come on... Tiger's 4 iron at the Ryder cup wasn't the most exciting shot you've ever seen?

 

tiger-club-twirl.gif


his hoylake hole out remains as a glimpse into the greatest ball striking week in the history of golf…

 

 

Edited by Christosterone
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Golf Jobs
Driver: Titleist TS3 9.5 w/ Tensei Blue 55 S
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3H: Titleist 915H 21 w/ Diamana D+ 90 S
Irons: 4-GW Titleist T100 w/ Project X LZ 6.0
Wedge: Vokey SM8 54.10S TC w/ Project X LZ 6.0

Wedge: Vokey SM8 60.04L TC w/ Project X LZ 6.0
Ball: 2019 Titleist ProV1

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