U.S. Open 2020: David Feherty expects 'a lot of whining' next week at Winged Foot

[Shilgy]

17 minutes ago, widow-maker said:

 

US Open courses are not typical US course designs.  They aren't meant to be easy.  You don't see green complexes at most US courses that rival what you see at Winged Foot, Oakmont, Shinnecock.  They are not trying to give us a "fair" test of golf.  They want the course to be right on the edge of chaos.  But in the course of doing that, 

 it sometimes crosses over the edge.... like Shinnecock.  It becomes survival of the fittest.  That's the US Open.  Why should they change something that is so richly imbued in American golf lore?  Are there people who don't like it?  Sure.  But they don't care.  It's been a huge success because it's a one of it's kind event.  If they made it more like any other tournament, it wouldn't be the US Open.  It's charm is in it's wickedness.   As much as people complain about it, ratings would suggest that they don't stop watching.  It's like gawking at a car accident.  It's the anti-Masters.  And there's nothing wrong with that because they all face the same adversity.  

My last on the subject. Like I said you have your opinion and I mine. The over the top setup is relatively new. Yes, it has traditionally been a very difficult test and I am all for that. Blame the weather, like the USGA has, or whatever the reason. They have occasionally gone beyond difficult to the absurd. Those are the setups I am referring to. When a good shot has no chance it’s absurd. When they need to add water to greens in between groups it’s absurd. I loved the mind games Mike Davis plays with the players moving tees around. I even enjoy thick long juicy rough. But they lose the course in an effort to what? Protect par? From a bunch of +8’s that know how to play the game? That is absurd.

[MG22]

The USGA setup team personnel changed a bit starting with Pebble last year. I personally think the USGA is going to do a great job at Winged Foot, and Winged Foot set in fall is going to be spectacular. 

[Ronnie Mundt]

15 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

There's a lot of irony in your post.

No, not really. Phil is an idiot (do you remember last time at Winged Foot he said those words verbatim) and I was at Chambers in 2015. I live up the road. The course was complete sh!t.

Edited September 12, 2020 by Ronnie Mundt

[mark m]

13 hours ago, Shilgy said:

My last on the subject. Like I said you have your opinion and I mine. The over the top setup is relatively new. Yes, it has traditionally been a very difficult test and I am all for that. Blame the weather, like the USGA has, or whatever the reason. They have occasionally gone beyond difficult to the absurd. Those are the setups I am referring to. When a good shot has no chance it’s absurd. When they need to add water to greens in between groups it’s absurd. I loved the mind games Mike Davis plays with the players moving tees around. I even enjoy thick long juicy rough. But they lose the course in an effort to what? Protect par? From a bunch of +8’s that know how to play the game? That is absurd.

 

I agree with your take on it. I'll get right to it - the USGA has had for many years written materials on how it should be done = "How to Conduct a Competition." It is a comprehensive booklet and covers all the topics including course preparation, course set-up (including hole locations), and so on. They got into trouble because they failed to live up to their own standards. The first time I recall was the final round of the 1992 Open at Pebble Beach. (A factor in the course getting away from them in the final round was probably Dr Gil's performance through 2 rounds.) They also had egg on their face with a bad location at Olympic (1998), and other issues with Shinnecock (2004) and Chambers and perhaps others as well. Here are a couple of quotes to consider:

 

Section 7 - Course Setup

 

The object to to provide a strong test, not a tricky one.

 

3. Hole Locations

 

Many factors affect selection of hole locations. The first and most important is good judgment in deciding what will give fair results. Do not be tricky in locating holes. (It goes on and on.)

 

There seems to be a contigent here who would prefer no written standards and like to see players tested by an arbitrary setup. Schadenfreude. Are you not entertained?

 

I am for high standards even though I know humans will often fail in living up to those standards. Hopefully they have learned their lessons. They also have devices to measure moisture levels and firmness. Gil Hanse did a restoration there which greatly increased the size of greens and therefore possible hole locations. They should be good in that area. With rough as it is and 3 minutes to find it - and no crowd - they will need lots of spotters and players should probably hit provisional balls in some circumstances to keep the pace up.

[ExTrumpet]

14 hours ago, Shilgy said:

My last on the subject. Like I said you have your opinion and I mine. The over the top setup is relatively new. Yes, it has traditionally been a very difficult test and I am all for that. Blame the weather, like the USGA has, or whatever the reason. They have occasionally gone beyond difficult to the absurd. Those are the setups I am referring to. When a good shot has no chance it’s absurd. When they need to add water to greens in between groups it’s absurd. I loved the mind games Mike Davis plays with the players moving tees around. I even enjoy thick long juicy rough. But they lose the course in an effort to what? Protect par? From a bunch of +8’s that know how to play the game? That is absurd.

 

Yes, the over the top setups are relatively new.  But, so is the modern player.  Everyone can bomb it over 300 (just like here on WRX!), and some are approaching 400.

 

Unless we see 500 yard par 4's the norm every week and 700 yard par 5's, the courses need to be tricked up to handle the modern player.  There have always been bombers in a particular era, so I don't blame the equipment--or expect them to have different rules than amateurs.

 

Trick up the course, make the pro's play from the same situations that we mortals play.  If they can play from some of the same lies I see--and can do it in +5, all the more respect!

[Titleist99]

Didn't we just see Olympia Fields and other courses where par 4's didn't have to be 500 yards and par 5's didn't have to be 700 yards.... ??? Those tracks did not appear to be tricked up.....

[manku]

On 9/11/2020 at 7:37 PM, MG22 said:

The USGA setup team personnel changed a bit starting with Pebble last year. I personally think the USGA is going to do a great job at Winged Foot, and Winged Foot set in fall is going to be spectacular. 

Fall doesn't start until Tuesday after the event?

[MG22]

13 minutes ago, manku said:

Fall doesn't start until Tuesday after the event?

The trees here haven’t gotten that memo, they’re already starting to turn. Winged Foot will be beautiful 

[KRAMER1997]

I want it to be an absolute bloodbath, as in +7 winning!

[tw_focus]

I don't appreciate the dismissive attitude. You should consider feedback at face value, not automatically label it "whining". In this case, the USGA has not shown the competency to successfully run a miniature golf course, let alone a major championship, so I expect it will be yet another bleepshow this year.

[paperclip]

Of course! It wouldn't be the US Open without whining about the course or something weird happening.

 

[TLUBulldogGolf]

16 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Didn't we just see Olympia Fields and other courses where par 4's didn't have to be 500 yards and par 5's didn't have to be 700 yards.... ??? Those tracks did not appear to be tricked up.....

 

It's all about the conditions that week. If rain blows through early in the week and the wind lays down there is really not much they can do. If they get firm greens this week like we saw at Olympia Fields I'd expect a similar or even higher score. Olympia Fields was a relatively 'easy' US Open by the standards during the time it was played there. 

[bigred90gt]

I fully expect there to be a slew of complaints about the rough today, and overnight, it will be shaved down to manageable length to appease the complainers like they did a few years ago. I reckon we'll find out tomorrow. I, for one, hope they do not. Those who complain about bomb and gouge golf and want to roll back equipment will see that longer rough can be the great equalizer, much to their dismay.

[NoCalHack]

I'm not sure.  There may be high scores, but it seems as if players complain if the course is unfair.  

 

I don't think the course needs to be tricked out too much to make it play hard.  The greens are inherently tough.  They don't need to burn them out and make them impossible to hit approach shots into to make them hard.

 

What are the players going to complain about?  The rough is long?  

 

 

[bigred90gt]

47 minutes ago, NoCalHack said:

I'm not sure.  There may be high scores, but it seems as if players complain if the course is unfair.  

 

I don't think the course needs to be tricked out too much to make it play hard.  The greens are inherently tough.  They don't need to burn them out and make them impossible to hit approach shots into to make them hard.

 

What are the players going to complain about?  The rough is long?  

 

 

I cant remember where it was, maybe Erin Hills, the rough was gnarly. After the Wednesday practice round, and players crying about it all week, the USGA had crews out that evening mowing it down, and when they showed up to tee off Thursday, the rough was mostly gone. May not have been Erin Hills, but it was a few years ago around that time. I remember watching "Live From" on the Golf Channel and they were showing the crews cutting it down after caving to the crybabies.

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, bigred90gt said:

Those who complain about bomb and gouge golf and want to roll back equipment will see that longer rough can be the great equalizer, much to their dismay.

 

I'll bite.  I don't recall ever saying narrow fairways and tall rough would not reign in the bomb and gouge, just that it is an intellectually and architecturally lazy way to go about it.

 

Extraordinarily penal rough limits options.  You go in, you really only have the option to chip or punch back out.  A guaranteed dropped shot.  You keep the rough adequately long but manageable you have options and build in doubt and temptation.  "Maybe from this lie I can get the club on the ball and get up near the green."  "Whoo.  Should I take my medicine and punch out here or do I need a birdie?"

 

Regarding Erin Hills they mowed down a good bit of the "naturalized rough type areas."  Literally needing a weed wacker at first to get it to a height that was mowable.  Lost balls was the issue.  Because they attempted to force a "traditional US Open set up" onto a faux links meant to be played with wide, running fairways and the impact of wind.  No, wind it was a push-over.

 

It is quicker to mow grass that is too long than to get it to grow to the height you want it.

[davep043]

On 9/11/2020 at 9:59 AM, davep043 said:

Feherty isn't exactly going out on a limb, is he?  Players always whine when conditions are tough.  My personal prediction is that a rather vocal group of WRXers will whine that the USGA has completely botched the course set-up "just like they always do".

 

On 9/14/2020 at 12:49 AM, tw_focus said:

I don't appreciate the dismissive attitude. You should consider feedback at face value, not automatically label it "whining". In this case, the USGA has not shown the competency to successfully run a miniature golf course, let alone a major championship, so I expect it will be yet another bleepshow this year.

Can I claim to be the first to have his prediction fulfilled?

[jdl]

As long as it's only whining and not whinging. Can't stand the whinging.