Wedge education please - wedgification

[JB lefty]

I am looking to update my current Callaway X series MD wedges, yes the 2010 ones. I love them and they have finally reached there end of life and need to be updated.  The wedges are 56 loft and 16 degree bounce and 60 degree loft and 13 degree bounce.  I believe the X forged series were a version of a a C grind. My issue is the new MD5 wedges are differing bounces and differing grinds and being left handed makes it just a tad harder. I looked at the PM grinds and they just for some reason do not suit me. I like the way the current grind on the x series wedges work. My questions and where i need help are; 

 

What in the MD5 range would be very close if not the same grind/bounce as the x series?  (C grind is only in low bounce in MD5 range)

Would another grind and the same bounce give me similar results to the X forged wedges? 

Does another brand have a closer bounce/grind options ? ( Ideally I would to transition to a 54 degree instead of the 56 degree - limited by manufactures options here).  In the majority of stores and pro shops here do not have demo wedges for ppl to take on the course. All the manufactures fitting sites are closed atm due to COVID but they typically do not due outdoor wedge fits. 

 

I typically use the 60 for around the green (short sided) and bunkers, occasionally the one hop stop type of chip/pitch.   I use the 56 more for approach shots/full shots and bump and type of shots from short range. 

 

Any help on what would be a suitable replacement combo would be great. 

 

[bnperrone]

Try reaching out to Callaway directly. Nobody knows their line better than they do. I wouldn't be surprised if they threw you a discount code for your loyalty. Never know.

[Jeff58]

Your current wedges are examples of Roger Cleveland’s earlier work. The current Callaway models are not.

If you prefer the Cleveland design, the new (wait for it...) Cleveland Zip Core models appear to be as close as he has put out in several generations.

[pinestreetgolf]

On 9/12/2020 at 12:14 AM, JB lefty said:

I am looking to update my current Callaway X series MD wedges, yes the 2010 ones. I love them and they have finally reached there end of life and need to be updated.  The wedges are 56 loft and 16 degree bounce and 60 degree loft and 13 degree bounce.  I believe the X forged series were a version of a a C grind. My issue is the new MD5 wedges are differing bounces and differing grinds and being left handed makes it just a tad harder. I looked at the PM grinds and they just for some reason do not suit me. I like the way the current grind on the x series wedges work. My questions and where i need help are; 

 

What in the MD5 range would be very close if not the same grind/bounce as the x series?  (C grind is only in low bounce in MD5 range)

Would another grind and the same bounce give me similar results to the X forged wedges? 

Does another brand have a closer bounce/grind options ? ( Ideally I would to transition to a 54 degree instead of the 56 degree - limited by manufactures options here).  In the majority of stores and pro shops here do not have demo wedges for ppl to take on the course. All the manufactures fitting sites are closed atm due to COVID but they typically do not due outdoor wedge fits. 

 

I typically use the 60 for around the green (short sided) and bunkers, occasionally the one hop stop type of chip/pitch.   I use the 56 more for approach shots/full shots and bump and type of shots from short range. 

 

Any help on what would be a suitable replacement combo would be great. 

 

 

Those wedges are the same as the C grind except they have a little more toe and heel relief.  Almost identical to the short-lived Vokey T Grind featured on the sm5 62* wedge.  I don't know of anyone that offers that grind now, as it is a pretty extreme grind.  The PM grind isn't that different in terms of grind and head shape, but is worlds different in almost every other way.

 

The high-bounce C grind is an interesting combination because it, like the Vokey low-bounce K grind and high-bounce M grind (the "D" grind) is a study in opposites.  The C is designed to help out with tight lies and opening the face, while the high bounce is designed for steep swingers.  Typically a wedge like this will work well for a player whose mechanics change as the shot changes and doesn't just use one short game technique everywhere.  The C grind is very similar to the D grind.

 

1. The closest wedge to the JAWS 2010 58/13 C grind is the Vokey SM7 58/12 D grind.  The two wedges are virtually identical.  The MD5 line doesn't have a high-bounce C grind, you'll find nothing except the name is similar there.  I'm not that familiar with the zipcore, but a quick look showed they are nothing like the old C grinds.  I am definitely open to being shown wrong here though as I could only google images, never seen one.  But from what I saw they were neither high-bounce nor Cs.

2. Yes.  The Vokey T,D or M grinds are both very similar to the grind on the wedge you have.

3. See 1.

 

I'd consider going 58/12 in the D grind for both.  Those two wedge are very similar in loft and bounce, you can probably make them one and free up a slot.

 

IMO, of course.

 

[ChipNRun]

 

I got a used first-gen  X Forged 56/14 wedge when I bought X20 irons back in 2009.

 

Then, I upgraded to the era's super wedge, the 2008 XForged 56/15 C-grind with initial Mack Daddy (MD) grooves. It worked off the fairway, greenside rough, sand shots, you name it. The shaft proved a bit heavy after a couple of years, and I was reluctant to butcher such a classic club by reshafting it.

 

For quick coverage of model, see 2008 XForged wedge review.

 

Fast-forward to latest Callaways, the MD4 and MD5 models contain an X-grind along with the C-grind. The new C-grind has decent heel and toe relief, but as you say is lower bounce (8*). I have this in my MD4 C-grind 58/8 LW).

 

In MD4 and 5, the X-grind approximates the old XForged C-grind. Both the W- and X-sole grinds have 12 bounce.

 

Whereas the robust C-grind of the second-wave XForged wedges came in lofts 52° up through 60°, the MD4 and 5 models only carry the robust X-grind in lob wedges.

 

 

As for JB's situation, you may have to go outside Callaway line to get what you need. If you're not playing in high level USGA tournaments, or similar contests, you can still use the 2008 model until 2024. You can still get playable 2008 XForged with C-grind if you hunt around on eBay.

 

As Jeff58 suggested, the newer Cleveland wedges may have something you like. I played Cle CG14s a few seasons before I picked up my current MDs. 

[Jarlaxle]

Callaway has a wedge selector tool on their website, you should go through the questions and see what it puts you in. 

 

https://www.callawaygolf.com/custom-fitting/online-wedge-selector/

 

I will say this, the new MD5 wedges are exceptional.  Here is a video of GolfWRX speaking with Roger Cleveland talking about them.  Pretty sure they cover the individual grind options. 

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/576978/callaway-jaws-md5-testing-with-roger-cleveland/

 

[JB lefty]

On 9/14/2020 at 2:15 AM, pinestreetgolf said:

 

Those wedges are the same as the C grind except they have a little more toe and heel relief.  Almost identical to the short-lived Vokey T Grind featured on the sm5 62* wedge.  I don't know of anyone that offers that grind now, as it is a pretty extreme grind.  The PM grind isn't that different in terms of grind and head shape, but is worlds different in almost every other way.

 

The high-bounce C grind is an interesting combination because it, like the Vokey low-bounce K grind and high-bounce M grind (the "D" grind) is a study in opposites.  The C is designed to help out with tight lies and opening the face, while the high bounce is designed for steep swingers.  Typically a wedge like this will work well for a player whose mechanics change as the shot changes and doesn't just use one short game technique everywhere.  The C grind is very similar to the D grind.

 

1. The closest wedge to the JAWS 2010 58/13 C grind is the Vokey SM7 58/12 D grind.  The two wedges are virtually identical.  The MD5 line doesn't have a high-bounce C grind, you'll find nothing except the name is similar there.  I'm not that familiar with the zipcore, but a quick look showed they are nothing like the old C grinds.  I am definitely open to being shown wrong here though as I could only google images, never seen one.  But from what I saw they were neither high-bounce nor Cs.

2. Yes.  The Vokey T,D or M grinds are both very similar to the grind on the wedge you have.

3. See 1.

 

I'd consider going 58/12 in the D grind for both.  Those two wedge are very similar in loft and bounce, you can probably make them one and free up a slot.

 

IMO, of course.

 

I agree about the cleveland zip core wedges. When you look at the sole the shape does not have a c grind type appearance.  I would say i do more so adjust my swing to suit the different type of shot I am trying to hit. I will check out the titleist d grind as it may just be the solution.  Thank you for taking the time and providing me with some great options and thoughts. Much appreciated. 

[JB lefty]

On 9/14/2020 at 3:28 AM, ChipNRun said:

 

I got a used first-gen  X Forged 56/14 wedge when I bought X20 irons back in 2009.

 

Then, I upgraded to the era's super wedge, the 2008 XForged 56/15 C-grind with initial Mack Daddy (MD) grooves. It worked off the fairway, greenside rough, sand shots, you name it. The shaft proved a bit heavy after a couple of years, and I was reluctant to butcher such a classic club by reshafting it.

 

For quick coverage of model, see 2008 XForged wedge review.

 

Fast-forward to latest Callaways, the MD4 and MD5 models contain an X-grind along with the C-grind. The new C-grind has decent heel and toe relief, but as you say is lower bounce (8*). I have this in my MD4 C-grind 58/8 LW).

 

In MD4 and 5, the X-grind approximates the old XForged C-grind. Both the W- and X-sole grinds have 12 bounce.

 

Whereas the robust C-grind of the second-wave XForged wedges came in lofts 52° up through 60°, the MD4 and 5 models only carry the robust X-grind in lob wedges.

 

 

As for JB's situation, you may have to go outside Callaway line to get what you need. If you're not playing in high level USGA tournaments, or similar contests, you can still use the 2008 model until 2024. You can still get playable 2008 XForged with C-grind if you hunt around on eBay.

 

As Jeff58 suggested, the newer Cleveland wedges may have something you like. I played Cle CG14s a few seasons before I picked up my current MDs. 

Going a different grind may be an solution here. The x grind does look a little like the old c grind. Although it looks like a much bigger c grind if that makes sense. 

[JB lefty]

On 9/15/2020 at 6:18 AM, Jarlaxle said:

Callaway has a wedge selector tool on their website, you should go through the questions and see what it puts you in. 

 

https://www.callawaygolf.com/custom-fitting/online-wedge-selector/

 

I will say this, the new MD5 wedges are exceptional.  Here is a video of GolfWRX speaking with Roger Cleveland talking about them.  Pretty sure they cover the individual grind options. 

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/576978/callaway-jaws-md5-testing-with-roger-cleveland/

 

I watched the video and three times during it I thought I had the answer. Once he got into the bunker it made me really think my option i had thought was right was so wrong.  

I tried the selector tool and it came back recommending s grind in both the 54 and 60.  I think the lower wedge the 54 I with a s grind and in the 60 I may try the vokey d grind. If that flops maybe move to a X grind. I do like having my wedges from the same brand, its my ocd thing that gets in the way.  The lob wedge is just such a hard thing to pick as it is so different for so many ppl.  I am finding it extremely hard to make a move to a new one even though i though old faithful is costing me spin and a bit long in the tooth.  The other thing that is making it harder is that I have played it for so long and anything I pick up feels and looks a little different kind of like putting on an old favorite t shirt then putting on a new suit. It just doesn't feel right. My fault for not changing my wedges sooner or more regular.  Kind of strange considering I can swap a driver out in a heartbeat. 

[Jarlaxle]

7 hours ago, JB lefty said:

I watched the video and three times during it I thought I had the answer. Once he got into the bunker it made me really think my option i had thought was right was so wrong.  

I tried the selector tool and it came back recommending s grind in both the 54 and 60.  I think the lower wedge the 54 I with a s grind and in the 60 I may try the vokey d grind. If that flops maybe move to a X grind. I do like having my wedges from the same brand, its my ocd thing that gets in the way.  The lob wedge is just such a hard thing to pick as it is so different for so many ppl.  I am finding it extremely hard to make a move to a new one even though i though old faithful is costing me spin and a bit long in the tooth.  The other thing that is making it harder is that I have played it for so long and anything I pick up feels and looks a little different kind of like putting on an old favorite t shirt then putting on a new suit. It just doesn't feel right. My fault for not changing my wedges sooner or more regular.  Kind of strange considering I can swap a driver out in a heartbeat. 

I have a 54S and a 58X FWIW though that is partly due to the fact that my course tends to run on the soft side. 

 

The thing that really jumped out at me from the video that I had never heard is the idea that the grind is all about shots from 50 yards in, that you shouldn't fit the wedge using full swings.  I take a full divot so that's why I always assumed I needed more bounce.  I started paying attention to ground interaction on pitches and I am still fairly steep (and my results with my MD5's has been phenomenal so far) so I'm confident I have the right ones for me but I do wish I had seen that video before I bought mine, would have changed how I tested the different grinds for sure. 

 

[ChipNRun]

7 hours ago, JB lefty said:

I watched the video and three times during it I thought I had the answer. Once he got into the bunker it made me really think my option i had thought was right was so wrong.  

I tried the selector tool and it came back recommending s grind in both the 54 and 60. ...

Sand choice has become a new influence on bounce for bunker clubs. Many golf courses are going to medium-heavy and heavy sand in their bunkers rather than lighter or powdery sand... heavier sand resists wind scatter better, and is cheaper.

 

Two local pros both say they now use mainly S-grind (Callaway) or similar. One says he still uses a high bounce when he plays certain courses in the area which still have lighter sand.

 

I consider myself to have a rather "middle-middle" divot and downswing angle, but Callaway wedge selector has started recommending S-grind across the board. In a Vokey rough fitting I had, I ended up with F-grind (high bounce!) for GW and SW, and M-grind (lower for LW).

 

The wedge bounce debate goes well beyond bunker sand. Some short-game proponents recommend an engage the bounce approach to chipping and pitching. The idea is to have very slight forward shaft lean at address, and skim the high-bounce wedge along the turf to make contact.

 

The engage crowd (some use Edel wedges) suggests you get a bigger margin of error than if you engage the leading edge, possibly chunking the shot. In skimming, if you hit the ball a bit thin, it carries farther but checks up more. If you hit it a little fat, it doesn't fly as far... but runs out more because it has less spin.

 

On heavy sand: What are the rest of you around golfdom seeing in your local bunkers lately?

Edited September 16, 2020 by ChipNRun
add clarifying clause

[JB lefty]

13 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

Sand choice has become a new influence on bounce for bunker clubs. Many golf courses are going to medium-heavy and heavy sand in their bunkers rather than lighter or powdery sand... heavier sand resists wind scatter better, and is cheaper.

 

Two local pros both say they now use mainly S-grind (Callaway) or similar. One says he still uses a high bounce when he plays certain courses in the area which still have lighter sand.

 

I consider myself to have a rather "middle-middle" divot and downswing angle, but Callaway wedge selector has started recommending S-grind across the board. In a Vokey rough fitting I had, I ended up with F-grind (high bounce!) for GW and SW, and M-grind (lower for LW).

 

The wedge bounce debate goes well beyond bunker sand. Some short-game proponents recommend an engage the bounce approach to chipping and pitching. The idea is to have very slight forward shaft lean at address, and skim the high-bounce wedge along the turf to make contact.

 

The engage crowd (some use Edel wedges) suggests you get a bigger margin of error than if you engage the leading edge, possibly chunking the shot. In skimming, if you hit the ball a bit thin, it carries farther but checks up more. If you hit it a little fat, it doesn't fly as far... but runs out more because it has less spin.

 

On heavy sand: What are the rest of you around golfdom seeing in your local bunkers lately?

My course has typically a medium to heavier sand as we do get strong afternoon breezes. The course has typically has issues in keeping sand levels up in the bunkers. The heavier sand has also contributed to a firmer bunkers a more harder surface then the typical soft beach type sand. Imagine the sand away from the water then the sand close to the water.  So basically a heavier and firmer lie in the bunkers for me. 

[JB lefty]

13 hours ago, Jarlaxle said:

I have a 54S and a 58X FWIW though that is partly due to the fact that my course tends to run on the soft side. 

 

The thing that really jumped out at me from the video that I had never heard is the idea that the grind is all about shots from 50 yards in, that you shouldn't fit the wedge using full swings.  I take a full divot so that's why I always assumed I needed more bounce.  I started paying attention to ground interaction on pitches and I am still fairly steep (and my results with my MD5's has been phenomenal so far) so I'm confident I have the right ones for me but I do wish I had seen that video before I bought mine, would have changed how I tested the different grinds for sure. 

 

I think your set up is where I am headed. the 54S is a given. Its more just what grind and brand in the 60 that has me goosed. I like to use my 60 in the bunkers and for that hop and stop type shot. 

[Forrest Sanchez]

On 9/16/2020 at 4:46 PM, ChipNRun said:

Sand choice has become a new influence on bounce for bunker clubs. Many golf courses are going to medium-heavy and heavy sand in their bunkers rather than lighter or powdery sand... heavier sand resists wind scatter better, and is cheaper.

 

Two local pros both say they now use mainly S-grind (Callaway) or similar. One says he still uses a high bounce when he plays certain courses in the area which still have lighter sand.

 

I consider myself to have a rather "middle-middle" divot and downswing angle, but Callaway wedge selector has started recommending S-grind across the board. In a Vokey rough fitting I had, I ended up with F-grind (high bounce!) for GW and SW, and M-grind (lower for LW).

 

The wedge bounce debate goes well beyond bunker sand. Some short-game proponents recommend an engage the bounce approach to chipping and pitching. The idea is to have very slight forward shaft lean at address, and skim the high-bounce wedge along the turf to make contact.

 

The engage crowd (some use Edel wedges) suggests you get a bigger margin of error than if you engage the leading edge, possibly chunking the shot. In skimming, if you hit the ball a bit thin, it carries farther but checks up more. If you hit it a little fat, it doesn't fly as far... but runs out more because it has less spin.

 

On heavy sand: What are the rest of you around golfdom seeing in your local bunkers lately?

Thank you so much for this recommendations, it's very helpful for me!