Conceded putt - conditional/mistake?

[deaddog]

In match play, A believes B is sitting 3.  A says “that’s good for a 4”.  B quickly pockets his ball and says “Thanks but actually that was for 5”.  Had A known B was sitting 4 he would not have conceded.  Isn’t the correct ruling that B is in for 4 because A is an idiot for not asking before conceding?  In other words, there is no “conditional” concession even if A makes the concession explicitly conditional, B knows A is mistaken and the condition is not met,  and A would not have conceded absent the mistake. 
 

btw, I’m the idiot ?  

[sui generis]

B makes a 5.

[Schulzmc]

In match play our opponent had a six foot putt and said, “This is for five - I assume it’s good?” (My partner was already in for four.) My partner said, “if that’s five it’s good.”  On the next tee our opponent pointed out he was getting a stroke so his net score was four and the whole was tied. Talking with our pro later he pointed out it was our responsibility to know who was getting a stroke and the concession stood.

[sui generis]

2 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

Talking with our pro later he pointed out it was our responsibility to know who was getting a stroke and the concession stood.

 

Your pro, he know. ?

[Noles]

16 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

In match play our opponent had a six foot putt and said, “This is for five - I assume it’s good?” (My partner was already in for four.) My partner said, “if that’s five it’s good.”  On the next tee our opponent pointed out he was getting a stroke so his net score was four and the whole was tied. Talking with our pro later he pointed out it was our responsibility to know who was getting a stroke and the concession stood.

When he said he assumed it was good, was he under the impression that the putt didn't matter?

[antip]

32 minutes ago, sui generis said:

B makes a 5.

Precisely, you cannot concede a stroke that has already occurred. 

[2bGood]

Keep in mind if a player gives wrong information the penalty is loss of hole. Not saying this applies in the cases above, but a reminder that if you incorrectly tell your opponent how many strokes you have made and do not correct it - you lose the hole. Its not their job to count, they ask you - answer correctly.

 

Also a bit of weird rule, you opponent does not need to tell you how many strokes they have taken when it is their turn to hit, but they do have to when it is your turn. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by 2bGood

[Schulzmc]

26 minutes ago, Noles said:

When he said he assumed it was good, was he under the impression that the putt didn't matter?

We don’t know - actually we think he knew darn well he was getting a stroke.

[Noles]

29 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

We don’t know - actually we think he knew darn well he was getting a stroke.

I guess what is confusing to me is that I have never heard anyone say something like that.  I just don't get the point of asking.

[rogolf]

It really doesn't matter.  Player B did not ask for the concession.  Player A conceded the next stroke, regardless of what it was for.  Player A made a mistake and has to live with the result.

[Oh Hi Carl]

B made 5. The player who plays with sportsmanship would've clarified that it was for 5 before picking up his ball, because he knew A was under a misimpression when we said the putt was good.  But he didn't say anything before picking up his ball, so he makes 5 but he loses credibility and respect.  

 

As for the guy who says "This is for 5-- I assume it's good?" I really hope he only discovered that he was stroking on that hole when he got to the next tee, and not when he asked to be given the putt.  If the latter, that is a really crappy move.  I find it hard to believe people would operate like that.  The "I assume it's good" part suggests that he thinks the putt is meaningless.  If he said that hoping that his opponent wasn't keeping track of who was stroking, that's awful.  

[Augster]

4 minutes ago, Sonja Henie said:

B made 5. The player who plays with sportsmanship would've clarified that it was for 5 before picking up his ball, because he knew A was under a misimpression when we said the putt was good.  But he didn't say anything before picking up his ball, so he makes 5 but he loses credibility and respect.  

 

As for the guy who says "This is for 5-- I assume it's good?" I really hope he only discovered that he was stroking on that hole when he got to the next tee, and not when he asked to be given the putt.  If the latter, that is a really crappy move.  I find it hard to believe people would operate like that.  The "I assume it's good" part suggests that he thinks the putt is meaningless.  If he said that hoping that his opponent wasn't keeping track of who was stroking, that's awful.  

What you call awful, I call smart golf. 
 

If it truly was a meaningless putt, the player would have just picked it up. His opponents need to know, and their responsibility to know, if the putt is meaningless or not and concede the putt, or deny the concession, based on that knowledge. 

[Oh Hi Carl]

2 minutes ago, Augster said:

What you call awful, I call smart golf. 
 

If it truly was a meaningless putt, the player would have just picked it up. His opponents need to know, and their responsibility to know, if the putt is meaningless or not and concede the putt, or deny the concession, based on that knowledge. 

He suggested it was good when it was a determinative putt.  He knew it was determinative but he passed it off as a no-brainer gimmie -- and it was a 6 footer.  You win by deceiving your opponents about whether a putt is meaningful without actually lying?  I realize the opponent has an obligation to confirm who is stroking, but a golf course isn't a courtroom.  I like to think the golf course is where people behave with honor.  If that's how you play, you won't be playing with me.   

[TCJ]

2 hours ago, deaddog said:

In match play, A believes B is sitting 3.  A says “that’s good for a 4”.  B quickly pockets his ball and says “Thanks but actually that was for 5”.  Had A known B was sitting 4 he would not have conceded.  Isn’t the correct ruling that B is in for 4 because A is an idiot for not asking before conceding?  In other words, there is no “conditional” concession even if A makes the concession explicitly conditional, B knows A is mistaken and the condition is not met,  and A would not have conceded absent the mistake. 
 

btw, I’m the idiot ?  

 

Was A in for 6 and didn't realize there was a chance they could halve the hole?

[Oh Hi Carl]

The guys I play with will correct their opponent if he gives them a putt in error.  Before picking up the ball, they'll say "Do you realize my putt is for 4?"  They do that because they realize that their opponent was confused and because they want to earn the win.  They don't want to win the hole because the other guy made a mistake.  

[sui generis]

18 minutes ago, Sonja Henie said:

The guys I play with will correct their opponent if he gives them a putt in error.  Before picking up the ball, they'll say "Do you realize my putt is for 4?"  They do that because they realize that their opponent was confused and because they want to earn the win.  They don't want to win the hole because the other guy made a mistake.  

 

Here's the Rule:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=3&subrulenum=2

 

You'll see it says, "A concession is final and cannot be declined or withdrawn."

 

You and your friends can invent rules for your own convenience.

[Oh Hi Carl]

3 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Here's the Rule:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=3&subrulenum=2

 

You'll see it says, "A concession is final and cannot be declined or withdrawn."

 

You and your friends can invent rules for your own convenience.

In a weekend golf match among friends?  I'm not talking about the club championship here.  

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, Schulzmc said:

In match play our opponent had a six foot putt and said, “This is for five - I assume it’s good?” (My partner was already in for four.) My partner said, “if that’s five it’s good.”  On the next tee our opponent pointed out he was getting a stroke so his net score was four and the whole was tied. Talking with our pro later he pointed out it was our responsibility to know who was getting a stroke and the concession stood.

 

53 minutes ago, Augster said:

What you call awful, I call smart golf. 
 

If it truly was a meaningless putt, the player would have just picked it up. His opponents need to know, and their responsibility to know, if the putt is meaningless or not and concede the putt, or deny the concession, based on that knowledge. 

 

 

1.2 Standards of Player Conduct

a. Conduct Expected of All Players

All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

• Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play.

 

 

Sonja is right. The guy was trying to put one over and succeeded. He was clearly NOT acting with integrity.

 

 

 

 

 

[Augster]

Not acting with integrity? He said, “This is for FIVE, I assume it’s good?” 
 

He literally said what his score was for. His only requirement is to give accurate information as to his score, which he did. 
 

The player does not have to go into a dissertation. “This is for five, I assume it’s good. But, let me point out, that I’m getting a shot on this hole and I will make a net 4 if you concede this 1-foot putt to me. I’ll happily putt it out and make my 5 net 4 if you’d like. The outcome of the hole will be the same. You need to tie my net 4. Do you understand how net match play works? If I make a net 4 and the better of your two balls is a 5 or higher, you will lose the hole. If the better of your two balls is a net 4, like mine, we will tie the hole. If the better of your two balls is net 3 or lower, you will win the hole. I hope everything is clear. So, is mine good for five?”

 

Seems a bit wordy. 
 

The player didn’t do anything wrong. It’s on the opponents to know where the shots fall. It’s also on the opponents to concede the putt or make him putt it out. If it’s not a tap in that he literally couldn’t miss, don’t concede it. If he could miss it, make him putt it. 
 

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, deaddog said:

In match play, A believes B is sitting 3.  A says “that’s good for a 4”.  B quickly pockets his ball and says “Thanks but actually that was for 5”.  Had A known B was sitting 4 he would not have conceded.  Isn’t the correct ruling that B is in for 4 because A is an idiot for not asking before conceding?  In other words, there is no “conditional” concession even if A makes the concession explicitly conditional, B knows A is mistaken and the condition is not met,  and A would not have conceded absent the mistake. 
 

btw, I’m the idiot ?  

 

3 hours ago, sui generis said:

B makes a 5.

 

Interesting.

 

So, playing Devil's Advocate,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, wouldn't it be pretty clear that it's ONLY "good for a 4" ? After all the implication from that simple statement is "but not for,,,,,,,,,,,,". i.e. it's more of a question rather than a statement or concession.

 

Rules say "A concession is made only when clearly communicated" Same goes for a provisional. You can't just say "I'll hit another".

• It is not enough for the player only to say that he or she is playing another ball or is playing again.

• The player must use the word “provisional” or otherwise clearly indicate that he or she is playing the ball provisionally

 

If the OP had said "Pick it up", or "That's good", IMO, that would be a clearly communicated concession. "That's good for a 4" ? But it was NOT for a 4. And picking it up for a 5 was NOT what was communicated.

 

 

[on the lookout for arrows ]

 

 

[nsxguy]

2 minutes ago, Augster said:

Not acting with integrity? He said, “This is for FIVE, I assume it’s good?” 
 

He literally said what his score was for. His only requirement is to give accurate information as to his score, which he did. 
 

The player does not have to go into a dissertation. “This is for five, I assume it’s good. But, let me point out, that I’m getting a shot on this hole and I will make a net 4 if you concede this 1-foot putt to me. I’ll happily putt it out and make my 5 net 4 if you’d like. The outcome of the hole will be the same. You need to tie my net 4. Do you understand how net match play works? If I make a net 4 and the better of your two balls is a 5 or higher, you will lose the hole. If the better of your two balls is a net 4, like mine, we will tie the hole. If the better of your two balls is net 3 or lower, you will win the hole. I hope everything is clear. So, is mine good for five?”

 

Seems a bit wordy. 
 

The player didn’t do anything wrong. It’s on the opponents to know where the shots fall. It’s also on the opponents to concede the putt or make him putt it out. If it’s not a tap in that he literally couldn’t miss, don’t concede it. If he could miss it, make him putt it. 
 

 

"This is for 5, net 4" is acting with integrity. Not so wordy, is it ?

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, Sonja Henie said:

The guys I play with will correct their opponent if he gives them a putt in error.  Before picking up the ball, they'll say "Do you realize my putt is for 4?"  They do that because they realize that their opponent was confused and because they want to earn the win.  They don't want to win the hole because the other guy made a mistake.  

 

Under the rules a player has two options if you conceded the putt.

 

1. Take the putt and move on

2. Concede the hole if they feel the putt was given in error and don't want to win the hole by 'mistake'

 

There is no option to refuse the concession and putt and if the two you agree to wave the RoG in match play then the penalty is - DQ for both players.?

 

I assume you are taking about in your fun matched with the buds, so do what you like, but thought it would be helpful to know the rules incase you get into a real match.

 

 

[2bGood]

19 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Interesting.

 

So, playing Devil's Advocate,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, wouldn't it be pretty clear that it's ONLY "good for a 4" ? After all the implication from that simple statement is "but not for,,,,,,,,,,,,". i.e. it's more of a question rather than a statement or concession.

 

Rules say "A concession is made only when clearly communicated" Same goes for a provisional. You can't just say "I'll hit another".

• It is not enough for the player only to say that he or she is playing another ball or is playing again.

• The player must use the word “provisional” or otherwise clearly indicate that he or she is playing the ball provisionally

 

If the OP had said "Pick it up", or "That's good", IMO, that would be a clearly communicated concession. "That's good for a 4" ? But it was NOT for a 4. And picking it up for a 5 was NOT what was communicated.

 

 

[on the lookout for arrows ]

 

 

 To be clear - the 'clearly communicated' part only has to do with the concession, not with anything said before it. 

 

By the rules nothing happened here. End of story. A player accurately gave his score and his opponent conceded a putt. 

 

If the guy purposely tried to trick the other player into a concession - then I would think he acted like a jerk, but I would be more mad at myself for falling for it.

[2bGood]

21 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

"This is for 5, net 4" is acting with integrity. Not so wordy, is it ?

 

I can say it is pretty rare that I have called out my score like that or heard someone call out their score like that, but I typically playing with guys that 100% on top of who strokes were, so there is no need. 

[Oh Hi Carl]

Yes, I'm talking about fun matches with pals.  I've never refused a concession in a competitive match or heard of anyone doing that.  

 

The problem with the "This is for five, I assume it's good?" question is the "I assume it's good?" part.  Either the guy a) forgot that he was getting a stroke or b) he was intentionally trying to deceive his opponent because only a meaningless 6 footer can be assumed to be good.  We're all talking about b).  Of course, if you're playing a serious match and your opponent gives you a 6 footer out of the blue, you pick it up.  But the problem with the scenario in b) is that the guy was trying to elicit a concession by deceiving the opponent into thinking the putt was meaningless.  And I totally agree with Augster that his opponent should confirm how many strokes have been played and whether this is a stroke hole, but that doesn't diminish the fact that the guy who got the concession intentionally and successfully deceived/confused his opponent into giving it. 

 

I liken it to intentionally confusing a store clerk into giving you change for a $20 when you gave him a $10.  You may not be under any legal obligation to return the extra $10 and it may be his obligation to ignore your deception and keep track of what bill you handed him, but I don't want my kids thinking that's OK.  

[Oh Hi Carl]

10 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 To be clear - the 'clearly communicated' part only has to do with the concession, not with anything said before it. 

 

By the rules nothing happened here. End of story. A player accurately gave his score and his opponent conceded a putt. 

 

If the guy purposely tried to trick the other player into a concession - then I would think he acted like a jerk, but I would be more mad at myself for falling for it.

I agree, and I think we're all pretty much in agreement but are just emphasizing different parts of the interaction between these two golfers.   

[2bGood]

5 minutes ago, Sonja Henie said:

Yes, I'm talking about fun matches with pals.  I've never refused a concession in a competitive match or heard of anyone doing that.  

 

The problem with the "This is for five, I assume it's good?" question is the "I assume it's good?" part.  Either the guy a) forgot that he was getting a stroke or b) he was intentionally trying to deceive his opponent because only a meaningless 6 footer can be assumed to be good.  We're all talking about b).  Of course, if you're playing a serious match and your opponent gives you a 6 footer out of the blue, you pick it up.  But the problem with the scenario in b) is that the guy was trying to elicit a concession by deceiving the opponent into thinking the putt was meaningless.  And I totally agree with Augster that his opponent should confirm how many strokes have been played and whether this is a stroke hole, but that doesn't diminish the fact that the guy who got the concession intentionally and successfully deceived/confused his opponent into giving it. 

 

I liken it to intentionally confusing a store clerk into giving you change for a $20 when you gave him a $10.  You may not be under any legal obligation to return the extra $10 and it may be his obligation to ignore your deception and keep track of what bill you handed him, but I don't want my kids thinking that's OK.  

 

Even with guys I play with for fun - we have a rule. If you ask for a putt - you don't get it. ?

 

Like I said I don't think the guy did a good thing (if he did it intentionally), but he did not break the rules. In my mind it would be the same as letting you opponent play out of turn (not saying anything) and if he hits a good shot making him replay it. but....

 

Come to think I have done that... but I had warned him earlier in the match not to do it after he did it twice. On the third time a called him on it. 

[Colin L]

4 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

Under the rules a player has two options if you conceded the putt.

 

1. Take the putt and move on

2. Concede the hole if they feel the putt was given in error and don't want to win the hole by 'mistake'

 

There is no option to refuse the concession and putt and if the two you agree to wave the RoG in match play then the penalty is - DQ for both players.?

 

I assume you are taking about in your fun matched with the buds, so do what you like, but thought it would be helpful to know the rules incase you get into a real match.

 

 

Not quite.  2 is not an option.  The hole is finished when the concession is made.  You can't concede a hole after you have won it.   You could, however, concede the next one.  

[HatsForBats]

7 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Here's the Rule:

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=3&subrulenum=2

 

You'll see it says, "A concession is final and cannot be declined or withdrawn."

 

You and your friends can invent rules for your own convenience.

 

Meh, I have let my opponents know plenty of times that they might want to rethink giving one of my partners a putt because it would tie or win the hole. In the right situation I feel strongly that it is the right thing to do. In my yearly outing with family/friends where some of the players only play a few rounds a year, the 'beer league' I have played in for years where many of the players are not overly familiar with the rules and the idea is to have fun mixed with a little competition, pickup games at my home course where players are more competitive and know the rules better but between all the mostly friendly banter they sometimes forget who is getting strokes where etc.

 

There is a time and a place to follow the letter of the law (rules).

 

6 hours ago, Augster said:

Not acting with integrity? He said, “This is for FIVE, I assume it’s good?” 
 

He literally said what his score was for. His only requirement is to give accurate information as to his score, which he did. 
 

The player does not have to go into a dissertation. “This is for five, I assume it’s good. But, let me point out, that I’m getting a shot on this hole and I will make a net 4 if you concede this 1-foot putt to me. I’ll happily putt it out and make my 5 net 4 if you’d like. The outcome of the hole will be the same. You need to tie my net 4. Do you understand how net match play works? If I make a net 4 and the better of your two balls is a 5 or higher, you will lose the hole. If the better of your two balls is a net 4, like mine, we will tie the hole. If the better of your two balls is net 3 or lower, you will win the hole. I hope everything is clear. So, is mine good for five?”

 

Seems a bit wordy. 
 

The player didn’t do anything wrong. It’s on the opponents to know where the shots fall. It’s also on the opponents to concede the putt or make him putt it out. If it’s not a tap in that he literally couldn’t miss, don’t concede it. If he could miss it, make him putt it. 
 

 

If someone does that to try to play it off that the putt is not important to the outcome of the hole then from my point of view they are not acting with integrity. In our group we had a player do something similar to another player by asking if they conceded the opponents putt would their putt be good also... ie 'good, good?'. They did it intentionally hoping the opponent would accidentally give them the putt and it worked. It did not go over well with the rest of the group and there is a price to pay for doing something like that within the group.

[antip]

6 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Interesting.

 

So, playing Devil's Advocate,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, wouldn't it be pretty clear that it's ONLY "good for a 4" ? After all the implication from that simple statement is "but not for,,,,,,,,,,,,". i.e. it's more of a question rather than a statement or concession.

 

Rules say "A concession is made only when clearly communicated" Same goes for a provisional. You can't just say "I'll hit another".

• It is not enough for the player only to say that he or she is playing another ball or is playing again.

• The player must use the word “provisional” or otherwise clearly indicate that he or she is playing the ball provisionally

 

If the OP had said "Pick it up", or "That's good", IMO, that would be a clearly communicated concession. "That's good for a 4" ? But it was NOT for a 4. And picking it up for a 5 was NOT what was communicated.

 

 

[on the lookout for arrows ]

 

 

Not an arrow....

 

I think  "if you are lying three, I concede that next putt; but if you are lying more than three I do not concede that next putt" is a clearly communicated statement - but "that's good for a four" is not. Certainly, I would see no case for breaching a player for picking up his ball after the 'that's good for a 4' statement but if the opponent subsequently then says it was not a concession if you were lying more than three, I'm thinking the player has to replace and putt.

 

However, this is an issue with no explicit official guidance. We have nothing that says a clear but conditional statement is an acceptable concession (eg the long version above) or that RBs would rule that 'that's good for a 4' would be considered to be a concession of the next stroke whether or not the maths is up to speed.