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Conceded putt - conditional/mistake?


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1 hour ago, rogolf said:

When I'm refereeing match play, one of the things that I tell the players on the first tee is to make their concessions clear - so that the opponent and the referee both hear them and understand them.  As a referee, "that's good for a 4" is a clear concession of the next stroke regardless of what it's for - there are no "conditional" or "provisional" concessions.

What if player A says "that's good for 4" and his opponent is putting for 3?  Is that a clear concession of the next stroke?  

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He suggested it was good when it was a determinative putt.  He knew it was determinative but he passed it off as a no-brainer gimmie -- and it was a 6 footer.  You win by deceiving your opponents abou

Your pro, he know. 😉

I think you've got it right here.  To me, its poor form to ask to be given a putt in any circumstances, and even worse to knowingly try to sneak one past your opponents.  But its on each player to und

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39 minutes ago, rogolf said:

As you know, I didn't include the whole wording of 6.5, which is

- "The result of the hole is decided (such as when the opponent concedes the hole, the opponent's score for the hole is lower than the player possibly could make or the player or opponent gets the general penalty (loss of hole)."

And that says, because of the highligthed "or", that we are both correct.

I was picking up a different theme, that the player may complete the hole before the result of the hole is decided (also making some observations on the way 3.2b and 6.5 hang together - not very well). My thought was someone focused only on your earlier post may have misread your meaning.

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7 hours ago, fawley said:


I don’t know the OP’s situation, but one that immediately comes to mind is:

 

I’m in for 6. Opponent has a 3 foot putt.
 

If it’s for a 4, I might figure there is no way he is 3 putting from 3 feet and just give him the putt.

 

If it’s for a 5, there’s some chance he misses from 3 feet, and if he does miss (and presumably taps in his next putt) the hole will be halved, so I want to see him putt it. 

This was precisely my thinking, 5 still wins the hole but it becomes much 'longer' if it is a 'must make' putt.

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On 9/16/2020 at 9:00 AM, oikos1 said:

I was always taught when someone says "That's good" for a putt, you pick it up no questions asked.  If they ask a question, such as "What's that for", then you answer appropriately. 

 

Always take a given putt, and always know what your giving when you give a putt.  Couldn't be any simpler, really.

"Meh, I have let my opponents know plenty of times that they might want to rethink giving one of my partners a putt because it would tie or win the hole."

 

Say what?  I'm not even sure what to say to that.  Selling out your partner and your team?  Wow!

Yeah 'selling out' my cousin/relative/friend/'team' is not a big concern to me when it means taking advantage of another cousin/relative/friend/'team' who clearly doesn't know the importance of the putt at hand. I also try to help out players that are new to the format in the beer leagues. There is a time and a place for always. These settings are not always it. I have played in enough golf trips, beer leagues and friendly competitions that it all adds up to plenty of times. There are just certain situations where it is the right choice IMO.

 

The formal competitions put on by our club or an outing sponsored by the local golf association for my geographic region would be. It's the difference between friendly golf and formal competition if you will.

 

I think you would be hard pressed to find a friendly group or committee for a beer league to reverse the the reversal of the concession. How would that work? I'm not to worried about it as I have never had it occur.

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9 hours ago, Sonja Henie said:

What if player A says "that's good for 4" and his opponent is putting for 3?  Is that a clear concession of the next stroke?  

To be clear, one can only concede an opponents NEXT stroke.  Not the one anticipated afterwards.

 

From 3.2b: 

A player may concede the opponent’s next stroke, a hole or the match:

 

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On 9/15/2020 at 7:00 PM, Augster said:

What you call awful, I call smart golf. 
 

If it truly was a meaningless putt, the player would have just picked it up. His opponents need to know, and their responsibility to know, if the putt is meaningless or not and concede the putt, or deny the concession, based on that knowledge. 

Exactly...if you know you have already lost the hole you do not ask if it’s conceded. What would be the point? Just pick it up.

 

Personally I don’t call that a smart play. Goes against what golf is supposed to be about as a gentleman’s game. 

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12 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

To be clear, one can only concede an opponents NEXT stroke.  Not the one anticipated afterwards.

 

From 3.2b: 

A player may concede the opponent’s next stroke, a hole or the match:

 

Thanks.  I understand that, but I was trying to push rogolf on what a clear concession is.  Is it a clear concession if it doesn't make sense or if it wouldn't be allowed under the ROG as Sawgrass points out?  He says that he considers "that's good for 4" a clear concession in the context above, but I wonder whether that construction is always a clear concession in his opinion or if it depends on the context.  

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15 minutes ago, Sonja Henie said:

Thanks.  I understand that, but I was trying to push rogolf on what a clear concession is.  Is it a clear concession if it doesn't make sense or if it wouldn't be allowed under the ROG as Sawgrass points out?  He says that he considers "that's good for 4" a clear concession in the context above, but I wonder whether that construction is always a clear concession in his opinion or if it depends on the context.  

I fear I'm not of the same mind as our learned friend Rogolf.  To me, "That's good for a 4" means, "If that is for a four, it's good -- otherwise it's not."  No doubt the easiest way to deal with this is to ask an opponent, "What do you lie?" and then decide if a concession is in order.

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Agree with you, Sawgrass.  That's why I was curious if rogolf thinks it's always a clear statement and not a conditional one. 

 

It's a sloppy and lazy way to concede.  Do the math and figure out if it's good or not.  If you're not 100% sure, then keep your mouth shut.  That's why you often see someone going through the pre-putt routine only to have their opponent concede.  The opponent didn't give the putt right away because she/he was confirming the strokes played -- or, less often, was engaging in some kind of gamesmanship.  

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13 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I fear I'm not of the same mind as our learned friend Rogolf.  To me, "That's good for a 4" means, "If that is for a four, it's good -- otherwise it's not."  No doubt the easiest way to deal with this is to ask an opponent, "What do you lie?" and then decide if a concession is in order.

I'll admit, I've been a little confused about some of the questions about wording.  My normal procedures is to say "John, you're laying four, right?" or something similar before deciding whether to concede or not.  I'm also not shy about double-checking before I pick up my own ball..."Did I hear you say this is good?"   Its so much better to get things right through real clear communication, avoiding all of the potential arguments that can come up otherwise.

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9 minutes ago, rogolf said:

"That's good..." is a clear concession of the player's next stroke.

 

Since a number of people are on each side of the issue, that in itself indicates it is not clear.

 

And while quite often done, especially nowadays, pulling part of something someone says out of the context of the full sentence/thought, is not appropriate and often clearly changes the intent.

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Most sports disallow projected/anticipatory decisions for good reason.your only allowed to make them at the time they can go into effect. You can give a heads up thAt you're about to do something but the official can't allow it yet. 

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On 9/17/2020 at 8:22 AM, HatsForBats said:

Yeah 'selling out' my cousin/relative/friend/'team' is not a big concern to me when it means taking advantage of another cousin/relative/friend/'team' who clearly doesn't know the importance of the putt at hand. I also try to help out players that are new to the format in the beer leagues. There is a time and a place for always. These settings are not always it. I have played in enough golf trips, beer leagues and friendly competitions that it all adds up to plenty of times. There are just certain situations where it is the right choice IMO.

 

The formal competitions put on by our club or an outing sponsored by the local golf association for my geographic region would be. It's the difference between friendly golf and formal competition if you will.

 

I think you would be hard pressed to find a friendly group or committee for a beer league to reverse the the reversal of the concession. How would that work? I'm not to worried about it as I have never had it occur.

I get all the minutiae.  Interesting that you feel you are the arbiter to determine whether or not your partner should have to putt out a putt.  When they miss, do you put your arm around them and say "Better luck next time pards"?

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On 9/18/2020 at 8:08 PM, oikos1 said:

I get all the minutiae.  Interesting that you feel you are the arbiter to determine whether or not your partner should have to putt out a putt.  When they miss, do you put your arm around them and say "Better luck next time pards"?

 

Despite your use of fancy words you miss that it is still up to the opponents to determine if the putt needs to be made. Sometimes they still concede. I would rather win by beating my inexperienced opponents by playing better than to take advantage of their apparent mental mistake. If you are the type that would put the screws to your inexperienced cousin/relative and insist that the putt was conceded then I am just glad you are not my cousin/relative. In a beer league we wouldn't stay partners long. I have won enough of those leagues to feel that I don't need to win by any means necessary. Winning by outplaying my opponents happens often enough for me I guess.

 

 

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What if the player involved have the gave the concession for tactical gamesmanship reasons? I've played against guys that wouldn't want you putting anything in that zone until you really needed to make one.

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1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

What if the player involved have the gave the concession for tactical gamesmanship reasons? I've played against guys that wouldn't want you putting anything in that zone until you really needed to make one.

I understand that players will do this, concede putts early and make players putt out late.  I've never quite understood it, because a player can always practice that conceded putt after play on the hole is over.  You simply cannot prevent a player from hitting putts, you can just choose not to have the pressure on when they putt them.

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15 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I understand that players will do this, concede putts early and make players putt out late.  I've never quite understood it, because a player can always practice that conceded putt after play on the hole is over.  You simply cannot prevent a player from hitting putts, you can just choose not to have the pressure on when they putt them.

 

But Dave, that's the point.

 

There's a big difference in practice putting a conceded 4 footer when it doesn't matter,,,,,,,,,, than there is when it counts. :classic_cool:

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1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

But Dave, that's the point.

There's a big difference in practice putting a conceded 4 footer when it doesn't matter,,,,,,,,,, than there is when it counts. :classic_cool:

We probably shouldn't go too far down this rabbit-hole when its not really on-topic, but I'd rather make my "practice" strokes and get my stroke right with no pressure, as opposed to facing a nervy 4-footer to avoid going 1-down after 1.  

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1 minute ago, davep043 said:

We probably shouldn't go too far down this rabbit-hole when its not really on-topic, but I'd rather make my "practice" strokes and get my stroke right with no pressure, as opposed to facing a nervy 4-footer to avoid going 1-down after 1.  

 

Fair enough. I've done all my practice putting on the practice green before the round so I guess I don't see the value of practicing the conceded 4 footer.

 

That said, different strokes for different folks. :classic_wink:

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