Course Setup To Combat Today's Bomb-And-Gouge Game

[gvogel]

12 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

I could totally get on board with that. We went from persimmon to 460 in the blink of an eye. Same as anchored long putters, okayed by the buffoons both sides of the Atlantic who run this game.

 

just from a legal perspective it would be trickier than changing the tee. What if you’ve just bought one? How many million are in stock? You could compromise easier on tees, perhaps allow amateurs to use longer ones for a few years..

They would say that elite players make the switch next year.  The rest of us in 5 years for regional events or club events (if the club so choose).  Over time, many might not make the switch.  My league is pretty loose with rules (they allow me to use a belly putter, but I don't), so a league like that might not adopt the rule.

 

By the way, the first metal driver (TaylorMade Pittsburgh Persimmon) was only 150 cc.  Many made the switch, and it won on tour.  I'm guessing persimmon was 200 or so.  230 cc would be generous.

Edited September 26, 2020 by gvogel

[freowho]

50 minutes ago, gvogel said:

They would say that elite players make the switch next year.  The rest of us in 5 years for regional events or club events (if the club so choose).  Over time, many might not make the switch.  My league is pretty loose with rules (they allow me to use a belly putter, but I don't), so a league like that might not adopt the rule.

 

By the way, the first metal driver (TaylorMade Pittsburgh Persimmon) was only 150 cc.  Many made the switch, and it won on tour.  I'm guessing persimmon was 200 or so.  230 cc would be generous.

Hopefully they test it first to see if it actually changes things. Hitting 5 degrees up with a 5 degree loft using a modern ball, is much going to change?

[NRJyzr]

6 hours ago, gvogel said:

Instead of regulating tee height, they should just reduce driver head size to 230 cc - 1/2 of current size.

 

 

It'll never happen, but I wouldn't mind.

 

I'm probably repeating myself in this thread, but you could accomplish about the same thing by just reducing MOI to no more than 3300, or maybe 3000.  Remember how almost no one played the SLDR on tour because control was an issue?  Its MOI is about 3200-3300.  ?

 

 

[milesgiles]

30 minutes ago, freowho said:

Hopefully they test it first to see if it actually changes things. Hitting 5 degrees up with a 5 degree loft using a modern ball, is much going to change?

 

Yes. Can’t swing as hard with a smaller sweetspot. And can’t hit up if you limit tee height.

 

so,so simple.

[airjammer]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

 

Yes. Can’t swing as hard with a smaller sweetspot. And can’t hit up if you limit tee height.

 

so,so simple.

Manufacturers will somehow find a way to make the lower part of the face up to the cor limit. It might be better if you lower limit the cor and be done with it. 

[milesgiles]

24 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Manufacturers will somehow find a way to make the lower part of the face up to the cor limit. It might be better if you lower limit the cor and be done with it. 

 

Maybe. But it’s the sheer size of the driver that enables players to swing so hard. It’s impossible to mishit it.

[airjammer]

41 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Maybe. But it’s the sheer size of the driver that enables players to swing so hard. It’s impossible to mishit it.

I don’t find my xhot2 3 wood any harder to hit than my m1 driver to be honest.  I’m only about 1 up on my driver. Like most people I gain swing speed when I hit down so at times my 3 wood actually goes the same distance as a semi pure driver off a tee. 
 

I’m not really picky about what they do as long as it actually achieves their desired effect and it equal effect to high speed and low speed player.  Make it tour only..fine  Change the ball...fine. Reduce COR and increase buldge n roll for everyone..fine.  Just do it and get it right...anchor ban should have banned arm lock and the groove rule didn’t do what they hoped. 

[golfandfishing]

9 hours ago, mahonie said:

 

My main point is that tree-lined courses, and I mean tall, densely planted trees, pretty much negate bomb and gouge and encourage a bit of guile, accuracy and ball-striking skill. I don’t doubt that PGA Tour pros would find a way to score well, but my other point is that the field in that mini-event (played in decent conditions) was primarily made up of younger generation + handicap golfers looking to get on Tour who struggled to break par (which was the winning score).

 

Scale the course architecture up to Tour-length courses and I think the distance debate would quieten down. If bombers were winning it would be because they’re straight as well which is where the real skill in driving is and fair play to them.

Was this “mini tour” event actually a Player’s Ability Test (or the UK equivalent)? Assistant pros are overwhelmingly not looking to get on tour and are not plus handicaps. 

[EmperorPenguin]

This notion of using only a 3/4" tee is ridiculous.  I don't think there has ever been a tournament on the PGA Tour that restricted equipment with the exception of .460 cc driver heads with conforming C.O.R., square grooves, and clubs on the USGA's conforming list from a few years ago.  Most importantly, I cannot see any tournament that mandates a tournament ball for the whole field.  I would, however, love to see a tournament with only persimmon woods and blades with balata balls, but for now let's try to set up the course that can combat the bomb-and-gouge game of today's equipment.  What makes the most sense to me is to make the rough more penal as golfers hit it farther.  I do like the idea of water hazards, but tournaments visiting courses should make do with what they have at the course instead of adding ponds solely for a handful of gofers the course would not see after the tournament left.  It is easy to cut rough, but not so easy to remove water hazards.

 

Take yourselves back to 1995-96.  I remember when Greg Norman dominated Doral and won by a mile.  The next year, Ray Floyd's design team reworked it and the course proved too tough and the next year's tournament had very high scores, and the year after that the course was partly reverted back.  Any of you guys remember exactly what Ray Floyd's design team did to the course?  I vaguely remember that they added many new bunkers.

[Nels55]

On Morning Drive Bryson was asked if there were courses that did not suit his Winged Foot approach and he said that East Lake did not because of the Bermuda rough.  So I guess that the answer to the OP's question is East Lake.

[milesgiles]

3 hours ago, EmperorPenguin said:

This notion of using only a 3/4" tee is ridiculous.  I don't think there has ever been a tournament on the PGA Tour that restricted equipment with the exception of .460 cc driver heads with conforming C.O.R., square grooves, and clubs on the USGA's conforming list from a few years ago.  Most importantly, I cannot see any tournament that mandates a tournament ball for the whole field.  I would, however, love to see a tournament with only persimmon woods and blades with balata balls, but for now let's try to set up the course that can combat the bomb-and-gouge game of today's equipment.  What makes the most sense to me is to make the rough more penal as golfers hit it farther.  I do like the idea of water hazards, but tournaments visiting courses should make do with what they have at the course instead of adding ponds solely for a handful of gofers the course would not see after the tournament left.  It is easy to cut rough, but not so easy to remove water hazards.

 

Take yourselves back to 1995-96.  I remember when Greg Norman dominated Doral and won by a mile.  The next year, Ray Floyd's design team reworked it and the course proved too tough and the next year's tournament had very high scores, and the year after that the course was partly reverted back.  Any of you guys remember exactly what Ray Floyd's design team did to the course?  I vaguely remember that they added many new bunkers.

 

Why is a 3/4” tee ridiculous? That’s how the game started, on a little mound of sand, I’ve never seen footage of Hogan or Snead teeing it up more than that. Don’t even recall Nicklaus doing it, if I recall he set the equator of the ball in line with the top of his (persimmon) driver, can’t be much more than an inch..

 

making the target smaller at 320 yards than 280, or making the rough taller after 300 yards, is however very clearly completely arbritrary and unfair. It goes against anything sport should be about. Long, straight hitting SHOULD be rewarded more than short, straight hitting. I don’t know why this point keeps getting lost in this debate.

[milesgiles]

9 hours ago, airjammer said:

I don’t find my xhot2 3 wood any harder to hit than my m1 driver to be honest.  I’m only about 1 up on my driver. Like most people I gain swing speed when I hit down so at times my 3 wood actually goes the same distance as a semi pure driver off a tee. 
 

I’m not really picky about what they do as long as it actually achieves their desired effect and it equal effect to high speed and low speed player.  Make it tour only..fine  Change the ball...fine. Reduce COR and increase buldge n roll for everyone..fine.  Just do it and get it right...anchor ban should have banned arm lock and the groove rule didn’t do what they hoped. 

 

As someone who barely breaks 100mph I can agree there’s really not much difference between my 3 wood and driver total distance. The difference comes when I’m going for extra carry, where the 460 driver is at a huge advantage.

 

im not against reducing COR btw, I’m just wondering why it hasn’t been done already..

[mahonie]

8 hours ago, golfandfishing said:

Was this “mini tour” event actually a Player’s Ability Test (or the UK equivalent)? Assistant pros are overwhelmingly not looking to get on tour and are not plus handicaps. 

Yes, all participants have to pass the PAT and be registered as PGA Professionals. The winner of the PGA Assistants Championship qualifies to play in the European Tour flagship BMW PGA Championship at Wentworth.

[NRJyzr]

5 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

As someone who barely breaks 100mph I can agree there’s really not much difference between my 3 wood and driver total distance. The difference comes when I’m going for extra carry, where the 460 driver is at a huge advantage.

 

im not against reducing COR btw, I’m just wondering why it hasn’t been done already..

 

Because COR isn't the problem.  

[mahonie]

2 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Because COR isn't the problem.  

I know what you’re saying...I’ve hit 250 yard drives with my 460cc driver that would have been air shots with persimmon ?

[Rosco1216]

8 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

As someone who barely breaks 100mph I can agree there’s really not much difference between my 3 wood and driver total distance. The difference comes when I’m going for extra carry, where the 460 driver is at a huge advantage.

 

im not against reducing COR btw, I’m just wondering why it hasn’t been done already..

Seeing as though this topic is about how to set up a course to combat against the bomb and gouge approach of long hitters, would someone who barely breaks 100mph have useful insight or experience on how to set up a course accordingly?

[milesgiles]

5 hours ago, Rosco1216 said:

Seeing as though this topic is about how to set up a course to combat against the bomb and gouge approach of long hitters, would someone who barely breaks 100mph have useful insight or experience on how to set up a course accordingly?

 

Hold on chaps.. no one post in this thread if you are not swinging at 120 mph. You have no relevant opinion, you've been told..

[Rosco1216]

17 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

Hold on chaps.. no one post in this thread if you are not swinging at 120 mph. You have no relevant opinion, you've been told..

Others certainly can. You just have a track record of “Richard-ishly” telling people they’re wrong and always changing your position on a topic for which you have no experience with. 

However,  I finally understand why. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Rosco1216

[smashdn]

On 9/26/2020 at 1:38 PM, freowho said:

Hopefully they test it first to see if it actually changes things. Hitting 5 degrees up with a 5 degree loft using a modern ball, is much going to change?

 

Can't speak to the 5* of loft but the ball flight is much lower with persimmon drivers.  You can try to to hit it high (or I should say I have tried to hit it high) but not like the results.  It spins a bunch compared to modern drivers.  I play with the chrome soft ball.  If you miss the sweet spot you lose much more distance and it goes probably 10-20% further sideways than modern ball on modern club.

 

Put it on a 43" steel shaft and make the pros play it.

[milesgiles]

56 minutes ago, Rosco1216 said:

Others certainly can. You just have a track record of “Richard-ishly” telling people they’re wrong and always changing your position on a topic for which you have no experience with. 

However,  I finally understand why. 

 

No idea who Richard is. Which topic did I change my position on? 

[smashdn]

On 9/26/2020 at 3:48 PM, airjammer said:

Manufacturers will somehow find a way to make the lower part of the face up to the cor limit. It might be better if you lower limit the cor and be done with it. 

 

Flip over a TM driver or Adams fairway wood (and maybe a Titleist model or two) and you see that groove or slot filled with some kind of urethane squishy material?  The face isn't really hotter but the bottom of the face can flex or deform in a controlled way.

 

I was speaking with a club maker one day.  He said the name of the game is to control deflection in the club so it deforms where you want it and not where you don't.  I don't have the physics background to tell you which of Newton's laws (not the first) this applies to but here's a go at it.

 

When you whack a ball with your driver you are essentially doing so with a metal balloon on a stick.  Just like when you poke a partially inflated balloon in one spot it deforms and bulges or expands in others or another.  Same thing happens with the driver.  There are places other than the face that move and flex.  This is wasted energy as it is not being imparted into the ball in the direction you want it to go.  Vibration is wasted energy.  Sound is actually wasted energy.  

 

So when Callaway has the jail break bars behind the face they are attempting to keep the face from expanding sole to crown.  They want to hold that rigid so the face flexes more and more controlled.  I think there were other technologies too that attempted to do the same.  In short you want to minimize flex and vibration where you don't want it and move it where you do.

 

So, yeah, they will find a way to make that bottom part of the club face hot.  I have one of those Adam's Tight Lies Ti 3 woods with the urethane filled slot.  Sucker is hot.  

 

COR of persimmon is like .78 .  USGA limit is .83.  Club builder told me that isn't really an appreciable difference.  Persimmon inserts don't mean much in terms of COR or distance because they don't flex since it is solid wood behind the insert.  The limitation with persimmon is size due to weight.  You could theoretically make a 460 cc persimmon driver but it would be so heavy you couldn't swing it.

[blueonblack]

23 hours ago, Rosco1216 said:

Seeing as though this topic is about how to set up a course to combat against the bomb and gouge approach of long hitters, would someone who barely breaks 100mph have useful insight or experience on how to set up a course accordingly?

Maybe he's still "long man" in his group on Sundays and his buddies are wondering how to keep him from winning all the skins? Still relevant.

 

Maybe he swung 120MPH in his prime and now he's old? I can sure relate there.

[bigred90gt]

On 9/24/2020 at 5:29 PM, mahonie said:

 

I’ve said this before, my home course is 6100 yards from the tips, par 71 and the course record is 65...it’s been around for nearly 50 years. Tight, tree-lined with narrow fairways and small greens, it tests every club in the bag. Some people complain that they can’t get driver out on 14 holes (you only need or can get away with driver on 7 holes) and that you can’t use driver on one of the par 5s:

 

 

Although it is less than 500 yards it’s a proper 3-shotter...play it sensibly and you should have a shot at birdie but no way is it a gimme.

That looks like an absolutely beautiful course. I only WISH we could have something that looked like that around here.

[mahonie]

15 minutes ago, bigred90gt said:

That looks like an absolutely beautiful course. I only WISH we could have something that looked like that around here.

Thank you for that - much appreciated.

[bigred90gt]

On 9/26/2020 at 4:16 PM, milesgiles said:

 

Maybe. But it’s the sheer size of the driver that enables players to swing so hard. It’s impossible to mishit it.

Tell that to Harris English who duck hooked his opening tee shot into the junk in the final round of the US Open and had to go back and hit 3 off the tee. Or any of the countless number of guys who blast their tee shots miles from the fairways week in and week out on tour.

 

I'll never understand the "impossible to mishit" crowd. Modern drivers are quite easy to mishit. I'm a 5.7 index, and I mishit mine all the friggin time. I average around 30% FIR. Even when I was playing to around a 2 index about 8 years ago, I dont think I ever averaged more than 40-45% FIR.

[jons1]

99% of golfers are less worried about bomb and gouge, and more worried about their actual game, which is gouge and bomb, followed by 3 more gouges. 

 

 

[milesgiles]

 

51 minutes ago, bigred90gt said:

Tell that to Harris English who duck hooked his opening tee shot into the junk in the final round of the US Open and had to go back and hit 3 off the tee. Or any of the countless number of guys who blast their tee shots miles from the fairways week in and week out on tour.

 

I'll never understand the "impossible to mishit" crowd. Modern drivers are quite easy to mishit. I'm a 5.7 index, and I mishit mine all the friggin time. I average around 30% FIR. Even when I was playing to around a 2 index about 8 years ago, I dont think I ever averaged more than 40-45% FIR.

 

missing the fairway isn’t the same as mishitting it. Are you seriously claiming the 460 isn’t substantially easier to hit and the equivalent mishit to a persimmon isnt going to be in much better shape? Why does everyone have them then, including all tour players who are on a different ball striking planet to any of us? 

Edited September 28, 2020 by milesgiles

[bigred90gt]

Just now, milesgiles said:

 

 

missing the fairway isn’t the same as mishitting it. Are you seriously claiming the 460 isn’t substantially easier to hit and the equivalent mishit to a persimmon isnt going to be in much better shape? Why does everyone have them then, including all players who are on a different ball striking planet to any of us? 

I'm not claiming anything. You're the one that claimed they cant be mishit. If you don't think even tour professionals mishit their drivers week in and week out, I don't know what else to tell you. They do, as does everyone who plays this game. To think they don't is just silly.

[Sean2]

1 hour ago, bigred90gt said:

Tell that to Harris English who duck hooked his opening tee shot into the junk in the final round of the US Open and had to go back and hit 3 off the tee. Or any of the countless number of guys who blast their tee shots miles from the fairways week in and week out on tour.

 

I'll never understand the "impossible to mishit" crowd. Modern drivers are quite easy to mishit. I'm a 5.7 index, and I mishit mine all the friggin time. I average around 30% FIR. Even when I was playing to around a 2 index about 8 years ago, I dont think I ever averaged more than 40-45% FIR.

Along with, "These clubs are stupid easy to hit," lol

[bigred90gt]

21 minutes ago, Sean2 said:

Along with, "These clubs are stupid easy to hit," lol

I'd love to have a bag of clubs that were stupid easy to hit. Probably be a lot less frustrating of a game.