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Course Setup To Combat Today's Bomb-And-Gouge Game


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2 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:


 

I think I read that same article.  It’s why I always laugh at the jacked up loft discussions on irons because that article clearly said many of tour players at the time were Secretly playing jacked up lofts already.

I remember hearing or reading that Phil was early to that party and that his irons are nearly an inch over standard.  

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2 hours ago, madeintheshade said:

Doesn’t that make it a more competitive game then? If more players are the same length, then there should be less dominance than when only a couple of guys could really drive it far. 
 

does the NFL, care that more receivers and defensive backs run 4.3 forties in 2020 than did in 1970? 


 

you have the exact point.   It’s easy for us to talk about equipment, but driver COR, size, and rebound have been maxed out on drivers for years now, but average distances keep increasing.  Why?   players are athletes and are all working physically to get faster.  That’s the nature of sports and athletes, someone is always Trying to outwork you.  In other sports we applaud that (the faster runner, the stronger hit, the higher jump), but it seems to scare a lot of people in golf.

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12 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:


 

I think I read that same article.  It’s why I always laugh at the jacked up loft discussions on irons because that article clearly said many of tour players at the time were Secretly playing jacked up lofts already.

It was a funny article, written by someone who had likely never played at a high level.  Fixation on the loft of a certain iron is funny when such is so easily manipulated by anyone with tour-level talent. 
 

Edit: To say I certainly don’t have such talent.  Just commenting on observation over the years.

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16 minutes ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

It was a funny article, written by someone who had likely never played at a high level.  Fixation on the loft of a certain iron is funny when such is so easily manipulated by anyone with tour-level talent. 
 

Edit: To say I certainly don’t have such talent.  Just commenting on observation over the years.

If it was written by Dan Jenkins (like you mentioned in the original post) then it was written by someone who played college golf at Texas Christian.  The guy was not only a hilarious and talented writer, but he could play a little as well. 

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48 minutes ago, Dr. Block said:

If it was written by Dan Jenkins (like you mentioned in the original post) then it was written by someone who played college golf at Texas Christian.  The guy was not only a hilarious and talented writer, but he could play a little as well. 

Wasn’t him, then.  Unless he was being funny.  Which is a possibility. 

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1 hour ago, Ashley Schaeffer said:

It was a funny article, written by someone who had likely never played at a high level.  Fixation on the loft of a certain iron is funny when such is so easily manipulated by anyone with tour-level talent. 
 

Edit: To say I certainly don’t have such talent.  Just commenting on observation over the years.

Beyond the de-lofting that occurs with a descending tour level strike, how does one with “tour level talent” manipulate the loft of their irons?  I mean I get that it can be done with wedges, but how do they do it with their irons? 
 

Strengthening the lofts is not a fixation, it’s something club companies have been doing to sell irons for the last twenty years.  And it is beneficial when you want to get to a tucked pin on a 180 yard par three on tour.  Much easier with a jacked head on your eight iron length shaft.   Tour pros aren’t opening or hooding the face to “manipulate the loft” they are taking advantage of a stronger loft built into the club

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22 minutes ago, Dr. Block said:

Beyond the de-lofting that occurs with a descending tour level strike, how does one with “tour level talent” manipulate the loft of their irons?  I mean I get that it can be done with wedges, but how do they do it with their irons? 
 

Strengthening the lofts is not a fixation, it’s something club companies have been doing to sell irons for the last twenty years.  And it is beneficial when you want to get to a tucked pin on a 180 yard par three on tour.  Much easier with a jacked head on your eight iron length shaft.   Tour pros aren’t opening or hooding the face to “manipulate the loft” they are taking advantage of a stronger loft built into the club

Makes one wonder how long Tiger would have been with irons if he had played this so called loft jacking game. He plays traditional lofts starting with 49* PW.

 

I am sure some pros do have strong lofts.  But most of that talk comes from writers that feel a need to explain away why the pros hit it so much further.

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10 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Makes one wonder how long Tiger would have been with irons if he had played this so called loft jacking game. He plays traditional lofts starting with 49* PW.

 

I am sure some pros do have strong lofts.  But most of that talk comes from writers that feel a need to explain away why the pros hit it so much further.

I think it’s just the evolution of golf equipment.  Make the short irons go forever and add more wedges.  Very complimentary when you’re bombing the driver 

 

now you’re seeing that go even further with guys using game improvement mid and long irons and specialized driving irons at the top of the bag.  They’ve really dialed max performance into each club for it’s given use. It’s a hell of a nice time to be a golfer.  I hit the ball further now then I ever did back in my competitive years. 

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5 minutes ago, Dr. Block said:

I think it’s just the evolution of golf equipment.  Make the short irons go forever and add more wedges.  Very complimentary when you’re bombing the driver 

True nuff. All that really matters with irons is the carry achieved...and spin etc.  But does it really matter if you put. 6 or an 8 on a club? Mathew Wolff calls that his 190 and perhaps a Zach Johnson calls the same iron his 165. But each has tools for the other yardages as well. 
Controlled length will always be an advantage in golf. Always has been.

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11 hours ago, clinkinfo said:


 

I have nothing but respect for him and all he’s accomplished and done for the game.   Don’t get me wrong.   But sometimes, all that experience can form opinions that can cloud the analysis of the current state of the game.  This is a game style he really didn’t play.   I don’t know that long hitting is the death of golf like some others and needs to be stopped at all costs.  I tend to see it like I listed above, it’s a competitive advantage that athletes are working hard to create.  
 

Let’s talk about an elephant in the room.  everyone keeps pointing to driver heads, the ball, and other equipment advances as the reason for all this distance.  But everyone is ignoring that these players are working their rear ends off in the gym!  None of the players of Jacks era were gym rats, with nutritionists and trainers.  And even if there were a couple, they probably didn’t have enough knowledge to be as effective as training of today,   These players are training way harder, they are way more fit, and way more powerful from all the work.
 

 I don’t believe in professional sports that reducing the advantage of physically working hard to be fitter and stronger than your opponents should be eliminated from the game.  

Nothing wrong with being more strong and fit. It's always been an advantage to hit the long ball. But the dimension of shot making has been somewhat removed from the modern game.  In the old days it wasn't as necessary to be as strong or fit,  as the game was as much about power as it was about shot shaping by controlling the spin and trajectory of the ball. This was necessary as this was the best way to use the equipment available at the time.  With the modern ball being longer and straighter in all conditions, and clubs more forgiving, the game today gives a distinct advantage to hitting the weights and being bigger and stronger. More about raw power and clubhead speed and less about artful finesse and clubface control on all shots.

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I heard an interesting comment today suggesting that to marginalize the effectiveness of the "bomb and gouge" guys we should widen fairways rather than narrow them.  The thought being that the B&G guys don't care about hitting fairways as they will be gouging with pitching wedges or less, and the fairways were so tight at Wingfoot that even straighter players were hitting from the rough.  Virtually nobody, or maybe nobody, hit 50% of their fairways for the tournament. but you may have tightened the leaderboard if you had players hitting short irons from the fairway vs wedges from the rough for the B&G crowd.  I'm not sure if I buy it, but it is an interesting twist.

 

Phred

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I have 2 answers. 1 involves course set up and 1 just to improve professional golf. 
 

As to course set up I would have more hazards and or OB. Have hazards that are in play, same with Penalty areas. Fewer courses with adjacent holes. As for other courses I would actually speed up and widen fairways but have them run into either Bushes (think gorse) or knee high fescue. You don’t need to be a links course to have tall fescue 

 

Now here is where it gets fun, I would add a shot clock and the walking scoring gets an air horn. At 1 minute from your turn to play the horn goes off. Middle of your backswing, tough. 2 airhorns going off is a stroke. 

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3 minutes ago, zoots said:

Nothing wrong with being more strong and fit. It's always been an advantage to hit the long ball. But the dimension of shot making has been somewhat removed from the modern game.  In the old days it wasn't as necessary to be as strong or fit,  as the game was as much about power as it was about shot shaping by controlling the spin and trajectory of the ball. This was necessary as this was the best way to use the equipment available at the time.  With the modern ball being longer and straighter in all conditions, and clubs more forgiving, the game today gives a distinct advantage to hitting the weights and being bigger and stronger. More about raw power and clubhead speed and less about artful finesse and clubface control on all shots.

Perhaps it was not “necessary to be strong and fit” as you mention but it was an advantage. Perhaps the best were more of the country strong type than the gym rat type but the best have always been fit and strong.

Bryson dominated at all parts of the game this week. Let’s not try to diminish his play by calling it a long ball freak show. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, mallrat said:

I have 2 answers. 1 involves course set up and 1 just to improve professional golf. 
 

As to course set up I would have more hazards and or OB. Have hazards that are in play, same with Penalty areas. Fewer courses with adjacent holes. As for other courses I would actually speed up and widen fairways but have them run into either Bushes (think gorse) or knee high fescue. You don’t need to be a links course to have tall fescue 

 

Now here is where it gets fun, I would add a shot clock and the walking scoring gets an air horn. At 1 minute from your turn to play the horn goes off. Middle of your backswing, tough. 2 airhorns going off is a stroke. 

Man I hope that is satire.....the air horn  in particular would affect other players as well.

 

But mostly I just picture guys in blue blazers sneering with German accents...”you will play the game the way we tell you to play the game, or else!”

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5 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Man I hope that is satire.....the abhors in particular would affect other players as well.

 

But mostly I just picture guys in blue blazers sneering with German accents...”you will play the game the way we tell you to play the game, or else!”


I just get a giggle out of picturing how mad some of these guys would get when mid swing and an air horn goes off

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16 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

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Might as well lock it up. We have the answer lol.

 

Hey, you could play that shot with your new wedge!

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1 hour ago, Dr. Block said:

Beyond the de-lofting that occurs with a descending tour level strike, how does one with “tour level talent” manipulate the loft of their irons?  I mean I get that it can be done with wedges, but how do they do it with their irons? 
 

Strengthening the lofts is not a fixation, it’s something club companies have been doing to sell irons for the last twenty years.  And it is beneficial when you want to get to a tucked pin on a 180 yard par three on tour.  Much easier with a jacked head on your eight iron length shaft.   Tour pros aren’t opening or hooding the face to “manipulate the loft” they are taking advantage of a stronger loft built into the club

Yep. OK. 

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41 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Perhaps it was not “necessary to be strong and fit” as you mention but it was an advantage. Perhaps the best were more of the country strong type than the gym rat type but the best have always been fit and strong.

Bryson dominated at all parts of the game this week. Let’s not try to diminish his play by calling it a long ball freak show. 

 

 

Never diminished Bryson's play or called it a long ball freak show. Never said being strong or fit wasn't an advantage. I said it was always an advantage to hit the long ball. My point is that club and ball tech has made it more advantageous for players to be focused more on getting stronger and faster in the gym than it is to spend time learning shot making skill and finessing the ball, like they did in the old days. It's a different game. I find the old style of play more interesting, artful and skillful. Bubba is one of the guys still doing it, even though it isn't necessary with today's technology.

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5 minutes ago, zoots said:

Never diminished Bryson's play or called it a long ball freak show. Never said being strong or fit wasn't an advantage. I said it was always an advantage to hit the long ball. My point is that club and ball tech has made it more advantageous for players to be focused more on getting stronger and faster in the gym than it is to spend time learning shot making skill and finessing the ball, like they did in the old days. It's a different game. I find the old style of play more interesting, artful and skillful. Bubba is one of the guys still doing it, even though it isn't necessary with today's technology.

Hitting it long and straight-ish is the ultimate skill in golf. BDC this week was very Daly-esque. 
I actually prefer the older style of play as well but accept that every player needs to decide what is their best strategy to lower scores. Bryson’s choice will,be different than Webb or Xander. And neither of them are actually short off the tee.

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Not sure how this works when it seems to me that you are making the longer hitters punished for the fact of hitting it longer. Too funny. I actually think that the Us Open set up at Wingfoot should be how all tournaments are set up. Where it is a punishment not to be on the fairway. Most often times, a lot of these courses on the regular tour venues have rough that is pristine making it more of a first cut which really means not that much longer. The Us open this time around got it right. Hey big bombers go ahead and tee it high and let it fly but, you better be straighter than an arrow. 

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7 hours ago, clinkinfo said:

 

Hockey sticks actually break because they are being designed thinner and thinner to make the puck faster and faster.  They live on the edge of breaking as a result, that’s not a design feature. 

 

Defense?  I have no clue how to relate that to this, other than to talk about course layout, because that’s what golf defense is I guess (but we’ve been doing that).  The kicker being moved back was a statistical decision so the endings and extra points of football games were not so “predetermined”, football didn’t change the ball or the kicking process to make it more “fair” for all kickers, even the ones who can’t kick as far.  And kicking far and accurate in the NFL is the perfect example, that’s a competitive advantage that a player has worked on to gain that advantage.  Why would it be logical to make all kickers ability more “even” by introducing a “short flight” football for kicking?  They are athletes, it’s their job to get better and better, and the very best play professionally.  

 

Race cars are not the same discussion, they’ve always been limited, that’s the concept of the modern sport. 

 

Bats in baseball are just like the COR in a driver.  We already have that limit in place along with a size limit for the head and rebound maximum for the ball.   The pitcher was a decision for the game of baseball because it was more fair for ALL batters (Something both sides did evenly) and they wanted more runs per game.  It wasn’t trying to equalize batting ability across batters so the short hitters could still play with the homerun hitters.  

 

No clue on the tennis balls and Javelins, your probably right on those, it’s not black and white for sure and I don’t know enough to comment.  

 

The object of golf is to get the ball in the hole 18 times in the least amount of strokes.  I don’t think I want the sport to end up over-regulating how that’s done.  If someone can do it by being hyper accurate, great.  If someone can do it by being crazy long, great.  Why is either a problem?  The only thing I keep hearing is “well....the short guys on tour can’t keep up anymore”.  So maybe those guys are not meant to be on tour?  Just like a great kicker who can always get it through the uprights from 30 yards max.  That’s probably good for high school, not so great in college, and it certainly isn’t going to be good enough to be a pro.  

 

Part of the change that’s happening is the introduction of athletes to a game that was historically not populated by true training athletes.   We have guys who are strength training to death specific to golf and swing movements, with the support of entire training teams and analytics.   As a result, they can crush the ball.  This was never how anyone approached golf before, but it’s the new way athletes are.  I think it’s really odd to attempt to “equalize” all abilities, even those who have not embraced that idea.  Because I still don’t understand exactly why.....it’s still the lowest score that wins each week.  

 

if the reason why is simply “it’s so unfair, that guy can hit it so much farther!”...my instinct is tough, adapt and overcome, that’s life. 

 

 

 

 

 

You are correct if golf is meant to be an exercise of strength. But suppose a hockey stick and shooting style were developed that produced a shot capable of being fired from center ice with no windup and impossible to stop. Yay! Athletic advancement! No need to learn how to stickhandle, skate, or do much of anything beyond winning faceoffs and getting the puck to someone open somewhere.

 

Could that ever really happen? No. But if it did? I think it's safe to say the rules would be changed to mitigate it. 

 

I am also not saying golf is at that stage yet, my hockey example is ridiculously extreme. But to some it does feel like golf is on that path, and some people want it to be brought back a bit. Golf, to me, is not supposed to be an exercise of brute strength, and that the use of brute strength appears to give such an advantage that the game ceases to resemble golf, well something must be done lest the sport become something else. Your philosophy is different, and valid. I respect that. The fact that both sides of the coin have merit is why this debate will never go away.

 

7 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

The only difference between golf and the sports you mentioned is the fact the us, you and me the paying public play the same courses the Pros play and use the same equipment the pros use......Even the highest handicapper love the thought of that and to mess with that by changing specs because of 300 golfers (PROS) is irresponsible....IMO

 

The only sport that's exactly the same I can think of is darts. Same distance, same board, same dart. I'm happy to hit the board and they are happy to hit triple 20. (And somewhere between me and them is every other darts player on earth)

 

They play the tips at winged foot. I play the tips at Cabbage Patch Valley Municipal. They have a van cranking out custom clubs as needed. I have wrx. But yes, the equipment is the same in theory, and yes there is some allure there. 

 

I just think reigning in the equipment at the pro level wouldn't affect casual players thst much, they could always buy the pro level stuff if they want to suffer.

 

Or if you reign it in for everyone, everyone moves up a tee. It's not that bad in the end. People enjoy watching baseball but playing softball, after all.

 

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It’s always the short knockers who are envious of the long ball guys. 
Trying to take away an advantage someone has is a LAME idea.   That’s like saying let’s trick up greens to take advantage away from great putters.  

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9 hours ago, llewol007 said:

Not sure how this works when it seems to me that you are making the longer hitters punished for the fact of hitting it longer. Too funny. I actually think that the Us Open set up at Wingfoot should be how all tournaments are set up. Where it is a punishment not to be on the fairway. Most often times, a lot of these courses on the regular tour venues have rough that is pristine making it more of a first cut which really means not that much longer. The Us open this time around got it right. Hey big bombers go ahead and tee it high and let it fly but, you better be straighter than an arrow. 

 

Except Bryson hit fewer fairways than any Open winner ever. Granted he didn't seem to get too far offline and then scrambled well when he had to. I think the US Open style of setting the course up makes for a great test but it's clear bombing it way down there is still the play. I think the fairways probably need to be a little easier to hit, or else everyone is in the rough and the guy hitting it the farthest down there will have the advantage. 

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I heard a great analogy this morning.  It's like lowering the basketball hoop so we could all dunk.  LOL

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26 minutes ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

Except Bryson hit fewer fairways than any Open winner ever. Granted he didn't seem to get too far offline and then scrambled well when he had to. I think the US Open style of setting the course up makes for a great test but it's clear bombing it way down there is still the play. I think the fairways probably need to be a little easier to hit, or else everyone is in the rough and the guy hitting it the farthest down there will have the advantage. 

True but to Bryson haters out there, he does have enough of a complete game that his length off the tee is just another weapon. There really isnt enough other than placing bunkers strategic enough where there has to be some risk reward and if the player clears the bunker, than what more can you say. 

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      Sneds - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
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      • 19 replies
    • 2021 Tour Championship - Discussion and Comments
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      Odyssey putters - 2021 Tour Championship
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      • 25 replies
    • 2021 BMW Championship - Discussion and Links
      Put any questions of comments here
       
       
      2021 BMW Championship - Tuesday #1
      2021 BMW Championship - Tuesday #2
      2021 BMW Championship - Tuesday #3
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      • 18 replies
    • 2021 Ping i59 irons & Glide Forged wedges in hand comparison pics!!!
      In hand pics of the new 2021 Ping i59 irons and Glide Forged wedges...
       

       
      Ping i59 7 iron
       

       
       
      Ping i59 PW
       

       
      Ping i59 Comparison Photos

       

       

       

       
       
       
       
      PING Glide Forged Wedges

       
      Ping Glide Eye Toe Wedge
       
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      • 99 replies
    • 2021 The Northern Trust - Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      2021 The Northern Trust - Tuesday #1
      2021 The Northern Trust - Tuesday #2
      2021 The Northern Trust - Tuesday #3
      2021 The Northern Trust - Tuesday #4
      2021 The Northern Trust - Tuesday #5
      2021 The Northern Trust - Tuesday #6
      2021 The Northern Trust - Tuesday #7
       
       
      New Cameron for JT - 2021 The Northern Trust
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      New Odyssey putter covers - 2021 The Northern Trust
       
       
      • 6 replies
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