DeChambeau bad for the game?

[Ferguson]

14 minutes ago, Sixcat said:

Kinda adds to the mystique of Jordan Spieth as well.  He plays well at Augusta year in and year out without the paralysis-by-analysis funk he gets into on the greens in other tournaments.  Maybe he should dump the greens book all the time.

 

I think a greens book is only one item on a long list of things Jordan needs to "adjust" in his life. 

[clinkinfo]

22 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

I've got nothing personal against DeChambeau but his strategy of trying for maximum distance has caused the golf media to talk of little else, and this is bad for the game.

Specifically, amateurs with a scoring average higher than 72 should focus their practice on hitting fairways and greens, sharpening their short game etc...

I understand the talking heads on Golf Channel need to tell the story of how DeChambeau or Wolff are using distance to help them shoot lower scores, but that is not relevant to the game of an amateur who is trying to shoot par , break 80, 90, or 100.

 

why isn’t it relevant for an amateur?  If an amateur could gain 70 yards off the tee, they too could begin to score better the same way having wedges instead of 6 irons into greens.  
 

I don’t understand the premise of the statement?  You have no idea if DeChambeau’s strategy would work for an amateur.  

[ExTrumpet]

There have always been bombers on tour.  Bryson is getting a lot of hype because he seemed to have developed yugeness in about a year.

 

And for the record, Bryson was NOT the longest driver this weekend.

[Sean2]

1 hour ago, Ferguson said:

 

I think a greens book is only one item on a long list of things Jordan needs to "adjust" in his life. 

Spieth said the following: “There’s a lot that’s off. I’m not really sure. If I knew, I’d fix it. So I’m kind of just working through it and looking forward to having a little more time to figure it out. I’m late behind it. The second I try to get out in front, it’s hooking. Standing on a tee at the US Open and not exactly knowing where the ball is going to go is not a great feeling."

 

Hard to believe a player of that caliber going through something I am familiar with. Kinda puts things in perspective. 

[stryper]

12 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

why isn’t it relevant for an amateur?  If an amateur could gain 70 yards off the tee, they too could begin to score better the same way having wedges instead of 6 irons into greens.  
 

I don’t understand the premise of the statement?  You have no idea if DeChambeau’s strategy would work for an amateur.  

 

I agree.  At worst BAD’s approach might not be doable for a percentage of am’s, but it’s certain not “bad” for the game as a whole.  What’s bad for the game now is the resurgence of ball/equipment rollback talk that will certainly have a negative effect on everyone not playing elite am-level or professional golf.  Bunting the ball down the fairway and trying to one-putt for par (or worse) is not a fun way to play golf.  

 

Besides, chicks dig the long ball. ?

[sui generis]

Remember when Sergio was mocked for his twitches; yesterday was twitchers x2. But, at least we didn't have to watch Reed's antics on Sunday.

[Kilo1545]

11 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

 

 

Sounds like you feel very strongly both ways !!!

 

First you say the statement that all-time greats tend to be long hitters is misleading because they must have a sensational short game. Then you say there are no Tour players with less than a sensational short game.

 

Forgetting for the moment that if they ALL have a sensational short game then none of them have.

 

Make up my mind, will ya ? 

 

 

Did you mean to quote me in there?  If so, clarify for me how my comment fits into your response so I'll know whether I'm supposed to argue with you or not.  ?

[Kilo1545]

12 hours ago, HackDaddy360 said:

Exactly - but I’d argue the F&G consistency approach isn’t going to win golf tournaments any longer - and it really hasn’t for a bit.   
 

I played my most consistent and best tournament golf doing the F&Gs, 2 iron off tees approach - no doubt. But, I also could hit my two iron pretty darned far.  So, I hit driver only a few times a round and otherwise put it in play.  It worked.  Won a lot of junior events with that strategy. 
 

Fast forward 15+ years and I’m somewhere in the range of a +1 to a 2 handicap (been playing like crap of late, so there’s that) and the guys I play with at my club who can bomb it, bomb it.  They play the big game.  If they’re on, I will get smoked.  For a scratch golfer, hitting LW all day vs. 8 iron is a huge advantage. 
 

So, now I’m trying to play the big game.

 

Hardest part of the shift isn’t hitting it hard - I hit it plenty hard and keep up or pass them - it’s playing in a way that feels borderline out of control/stupid compared to how I’ve formerly approached the game.

In that sense, hats off to Bryson for being able to play the big game and own it.   

I agree with your post.  Using it as an example of my point, those guys who are smoking you by bombing it would be foolish to argue with you about bomb/gouge vs. fairways/greens.  If they're smart, they'll let you keep playing your F&G game so they can continue to smoke you.  Of course, that assumes a competitive game and not just "golfing with the guys."  

[Cheesehead42]

23 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

I've got nothing personal against DeChambeau but his strategy of trying for maximum distance has caused the golf media to talk of little else, and this is bad for the game.

Specifically, amateurs with a scoring average higher than 72 should focus their practice on hitting fairways and greens, sharpening their short game etc...

I understand the talking heads on Golf Channel need to tell the story of how DeChambeau or Wolff are using distance to help them shoot lower scores, but that is not relevant to the game of an amateur who is trying to shoot par , break 80, 90, or 100.

Absolutely no correlation to the way he plays, what commentators say, and the golf game overall. Its similar to what people have said about the impact Steph Curry would have on kids thinking it is OK to shoot 30' 3-pointers every time you touch it. If they choose to do that, shoot 10% from the field, and get benched/cut, they will quickly reliaze that was a bad idea. 

 

Amateurs have every right to try and replicate what professionals do. However, when they see that they cannot successfully do it, they will either change what they are doing or continue to suck.  I have no issue with people trying hit massive drives and spray it all over the map. It only impacts THEIR score, not mine. 

[Titleist99]

The golf world and the main stream media is talking about Bryson DeChambeau.....that's always a good thing......IMO

 

Guarantee you that there's a lot of little kids on the driving range right now, trying to bomb it like BDC...

Edited September 21, 2020 by Titleist99

[clinkinfo]

15 minutes ago, stryper said:

 

I agree.  At worst BAD’s approach might not be doable for a percentage of am’s, but it’s certain not “bad” for the game as a whole.  What’s bad for the game now is the resurgence of ball/equipment rollback talk that will certainly have a negative effect on everyone not playing elite am-level or professional golf.  Bunting the ball down the fairway and trying to one-putt for par (or worse) is not a fun way to play golf.  

 

Besides, chicks dig the long ball. ?

 

honestly, I think I’m more concerned about the putter anchoring and if they will add arm lock to the list of banned putters.  I never understood why my belly putter was illegal but I could lock it against my arm.  But I like arm lock, I don’t want it to be removed.  
 

I don’t want them to reduce the ball.  I think there’s other ways to stop the bomb and gouge, like graduated rough getting super deep in those long drive areas, or trees and bushes in strategic places.   I think BD is just showing us an extreme version of bomb and gouge because he’s winning so much this year.  But that could just be because he’s really good this year, like other years when Dustin was amazing or Rory or Jordan’.  It’s in our faces because BD is doing it and winning a lot this year, or at least in serious contention.  

[Ferguson]

23 minutes ago, Sean2 said:

Spieth said the following: “There’s a lot that’s off. I’m not really sure. If I knew, I’d fix it. So I’m kind of just working through it and looking forward to having a little more time to figure it out. I’m late behind it. The second I try to get out in front, it’s hooking. Standing on a tee at the US Open and not exactly knowing where the ball is going to go is not a great feeling."

 

Hard to believe a player of that caliber going through something I am familiar with. Kinda puts things in perspective. 

 

 

I think it shows how much "he wasn't thinking about stuff" when he was winning.   Now his mind is whirlwind of thoughts.  

 

 

I hear it all the time from my friends who are really good, "when I am playing well, all I think about is the target." 

 

[Sean2]

Just now, Ferguson said:

 

 

I think it shows how much "he wasn't thinking about stuff" when he was winning.   Now his mind is whirlwind of thoughts.  

 

 

I hear it all the time from my friends who are really good, "when I am playing well, all I think about is the target." 

 

Good point. Most of us play golf swing not golf as we are constantly tinkering with our swings. 

[Fairway14]

4 minutes ago, Cheesehead42 said:

I have no issue with people trying hit massive drives and spray it all over the map. It only impacts THEIR score, not mine. 

 

That's fine for you, but counter productive towards "growing the game" (which is the theme of this thread topic).

In other words, hackers out there spraying tee balls all over the place, looking for balls etc... is not good for anybody. What's good for the game is when players develop some skills so they may control the ball reasonably well, make up and downs from off the greens, shoot lower scores. When players shoot lower scores it's a more satisfying game, they have more fun, and that is "growing the game".

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

11 hours ago, TooSteep said:

A lot of assumptions are being made here that Bryson's style will make him more prone to injury. I doubt it. Moe would hit balls like this for hours and hours a day, 7 days a week right into his mid 70's. The only part of his body taking abuse seemed to be his hands.

 

It took tremendous hand and forearm strength from Moe, and looks like it does for Bryson too. But if you watch closely, he has much less curvature to his spine than most other tour players. Compare his spine position through impact to someone like Joaquín Niemann. Now THAT is hard on the spine! I would wager that Bryson will hold up just fine physically from the golf swings - no idea about the training he does outside of golf.

 

I'd never seen Wolff play before this weekend. To me, his swing looked much more unorthodox than Bryson's ?

 

Finally, the irony of this thread, when thinking of Moe Norman as Bryson's inspiration, is amazing:

   "I hit my 18 fairways and 18 greens, and go on to the next day"

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-story-of-moe-norman-golfs-troubled-genius

 

Interesting, and agree that Bryson will likely be injury free. I think he should lose some of that weight he gained though.

[Titleist99]

2 minutes ago, clinkinfo said:

 

honestly, I think I’m more concerned about the putter anchoring and if they will add arm lock to the list of banned putters.  I never understood why my belly putter was illegal but I could lock it against my arm.  But I like arm lock, I don’t want it to be removed.  
 

I don’t want them to reduce the ball.  I think there’s other ways to stop the bomb and gouge, like graduated rough getting super deep in those long drive areas, or trees and bushes in strategic places.   I think BD is just showing us an extreme version of bomb and gouge because he’s winning so much this year.  But that could just be because he’s really good this year, like other years when Dustin was amazing or Rory or Jordan’.  It’s in our faces because BD is doing it and winning a lot this year, or at least in serious contention.  

Don't worry, the USGA is thinking about outlawing the arm lock as we speak because BDC won with it.....LOL!

[clinkinfo]

5 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Don't worry, the USGA is thinking about outlawing the arm lock as we speak because BDC won with it.....LOL!

I know they are! And as much as I want that to be  a joke, i know it’s not!

[Kentendo]

I don’t think he is bad for the game.  What he did at Winged Foot was one for the ages.  The only takeaway that would be bad for the game is if every weekend golfer starts taking 15 minutes to line up a putt.

[disco111]

17 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

That's fine for you, but counter productive towards "growing the game" (which is the theme of this thread topic).

In other words, hackers out there spraying tee balls all over the place, looking for balls etc... is not good for anybody. What's good for the game is when players develop some skills so they may control the ball reasonably well, make up and downs from off the greens, shoot lower scores. When players shoot lower scores it's a more satisfying game, they have more fun, and that is "growing the game".

Growing the game means getting people interested in playing the game. Honing skills comes after.............  

[vman]

12 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

That's fine for you, but counter productive towards "growing the game" (which is the theme of this thread topic).

In other words, hackers out there spraying tee balls all over the place, looking for balls etc... is not good for anybody. What's good for the game is when players develop some skills so they may control the ball reasonably well, make up and downs from off the greens, shoot lower scores. When players shoot lower scores it's a more satisfying game, they have more fun, and that is "growing the game".

 Amateur golfers need to take responsibility for themselves and their games.

[NoTalentLefty]

He is great for the game. He does it with flare and science 

[Cheesehead42]

18 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

That's fine for you, but counter productive towards "growing the game" (which is the theme of this thread topic).

In other words, hackers out there spraying tee balls all over the place, looking for balls etc... is not good for anybody. What's good for the game is when players develop some skills so they may control the ball reasonably well, make up and downs from off the greens, shoot lower scores. When players shoot lower scores it's a more satisfying game, they have more fun, and that is "growing the game".

Shooting low scores has little to do with fun. Some of the people who love the game most will never break 100 while some of the best golfers I know are absolutely miserable to play with because of the seriousness they play with. Playing the game with friends and family, being outside  and not consumed by cell phones, news and work is what makes it fun. Fun also comes from making the game accessible to all people, reducing of the stuffiness of it always being rich white guys sport, and at some point you may want to get better. 

There is no better example of this than Top Golf. They have brought more people to being exposed to the game of golf over the past several years than anyone. Most of these people have never been to a golf course but still participate and have fun with friends. No fundamentals, country club rules, or investments required. 

[HackDaddy360]

51 minutes ago, Kilo1545 said:

I agree with your post.  Using it as an example of my point, those guys who are smoking you by bombing it would be foolish to argue with you about bomb/gouge vs. fairways/greens.  If they're smart, they'll let you keep playing your F&G game so they can continue to smoke you.  Of course, that assumes a competitive game and not just "golfing with the guys."  

Entirely fair points.  
 

Here’s the thing though - whether you B&G or go for F&G you still have to play your game and execute.  
 

B&G brings low scores into play, but also brings high scores into play.  You have to be ok with volatility.   
 

end of the day, F&G can result in a 70 where you make 4 birdies and two bogeys - pretty boring and low stress round.  
 

B&G can result in the same 70 with 5 birdies, an eagle - with three bogeys and a double laced in.  
 

So if you can stomach the volatility - B&G is fine.  I’d say you just have to go into it knowing you’re going to post some high scores alongside those mid-60s rounds. 

[BogeyPutt34]

I’m indifferent when it comes to his strategy, his approach to the game and his physical changes. What I don’t understand is why people fault him for doing what the majority of golfers have tried to do at some point in their careers: hit it as long as possible within their limits. Swing away big guy! 

[Kilo1545]

3 minutes ago, HackDaddy360 said:

Entirely fair points.  
 

Here’s the thing though - whether you B&G or go for F&G you still have to play your game and execute.  
 

B&G brings low scores into play, but also brings high scores into play.  You have to be ok with volatility.   
 

end of the day, F&G can result in a 70 where you make 4 birdies and two bogeys - pretty boring and low stress round.  
 

B&G can result in the same 70 with 5 birdies, an eagle - with three bogeys and a double laced in.  
 

So if you can stomach the volatility - B&G is fine.  I’d say you just have to go into it knowing you’re going to post some high scores alongside those mid-60s rounds. 

I agree with you.  In this thread, I haven't picked a side between B&G and F&G or argued that one is better than the other.  My original comment was simply:

 

Quote

"I've never understood being upset over the competition doing what I think is wrong.  If bomb and gouge is not the right way to go about it, and my fairways-and-greens style IS (or vice versa), then why would I be upset if everyone else puts themselves at a disadvantage relative to me?"

 

I stand by that.  If anyone is so convinced that one is better than the other, then do what you think is best and let your competition take the "wrong" approach.  Why lose sleep over trying to convert them since all that does is reduce the theoretical advantage you hold?  If anything, I'd encourage them to keep doing what they're doing.  ?

 

**Again, assuming it's a competitive situation.  If it's just "golf with the guys", then being cutthroat about it has less relevance.

 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Kilo1545 said:

Did you mean to quote me in there?  If so, clarify for me how my comment fits into your response so I'll know whether I'm supposed to argue with you or not.  ?

 

 

Yes. Sometimes someone will quote a single post to answer but that doesn't show how the reply evolved.

 

Even though I was answering his last post I included all 3 so posters can see what led up to my post - so they don't have to go back through all the posts to see what the heck I was talking about. 

 

I mean *I* have to go back through it to make sure I'm saying what I mean to - no reason to make everybody go back through it. 

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

43 minutes ago, NoTalentLefty said:

He is great for the game. He does it with flare and science 

Completely agree. He could use more personality though Lol

[Kilo1545]

9 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

Yes. Sometimes someone will quote a single post to answer but that doesn't show how the reply evolved.

 

Even though I was answering his last post I included all 3 so posters can see what led up to my post - so they don't have to go back through all the posts to see what the heck I was talking about. 

 

I mean *I* have to go back through it to make sure I'm saying what I mean to - no reason to make everybody go back through it. 

?  It's a shame you have to go through all that effort, but if you don't, there's easily a 50-50% chance of a straw man popping up.  Big pet peeve of mine.

[Superbrit]

Everyone can go on about BAD just smashing it everywhere but not many are talking about how well he putted yesterday, not sure where he stood strokes gained putting yesterday but i bet he wasnt far from the top

[physasst]

20 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

For any player who wants to shoot lower scores, it's a matter of good sense priorities.

Ideally, only players who can shoot 90 or better play a full length regulation golf course. Driving ranges and par 3 courses are a perfect place for people to learn how to swing a club, playing short irons until those are struck consistently solid and straight. Once that level of skill is attained the player can move on to playing short length courses and get comfortable swinging longer irons, hybrids, fairway woods etc... Again, only moving to the longer shafted clubs once the skill is there to strike the short shafted high loft clubs consistently solid and straight. And by playing the short courses the player is also learning green side short game skills.

So, after the process of driving range time, par 3 courses, short length courses , by the time a player graduates to a full length regulation courses I don't think he/she will be a "20 handicap" and, or, "chunking 40 yard pitches". He/she will have the skills to be on or next to the greens in regulation and play the course as it was designed to be played.

 

Not necessarily, you are painting with a rather broad brush. Strokes gained helps ALL golfers when you look at it by handicap. Heck this post here on GolfWRX: https://www.golfwrx.com/599572/behind-the-numbers-a-road-map-for-an-18-handicap-to-get-down-to-a-9/ demonstrated that. You'll note, for the 18 to improve to a 9, the biggest gains were in approach, FOLLOWED by driving, then chipping/pitching, then putting, then sand. 

Personally, I've always had a solid short game. I rarely 3 putt, and make about 40% of all putts inside of 10 feet. My chipping is solid, and inside of 40 yards, I can put it within 10-15 feet most of the time. I struggled off the tee, and with approach. I've focused on my tee to green, and went from a 19.8 handicap at the start, down to a 12.1 currently. How, by focusing on driver and iron play, and I've gained distance partly from swing speed training, partly from better swing mechanics and ball striking, and even though I am in the rough, my iron play has gotten better and I am hitting more GIR. So, longer, still in the rough a lot, better iron play, more GIR, lower scores.....How is that not the same as BAD is doing in a scaled back fashion?

 

M