Wedge bounce question

[Bigjim1022]

How do I know if I have too much bounce?  I play Cally MD4 X grind wedges in 54 & 58 degrees.  I really struggle with chipping, full craps aren’t great either but I by far struggle with chipping.  I practice chipping a lot but haven’t found any consistency and it’s really holding me back.  I’m looking at everything at this point trying to figure out what’s my game plan for next season as this one winds down.  
 

The course I play tend to be on the firmer side but not exclusively so and I take big divots.  I assumed I needed more bounce given my divot patterns but I’m not so sure now.  My contact isn’t consistent and i tend to skull or have the club bounce into the ball and leave it short.  
 

Bith wedges have 12° of bounce.  Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.  Also should note I’m off to find some chipping drills too, so I’m not thinking it’s just an equipment issue. 
 

Thanks!

[dlygrisse]

Take a lesson. Major problems are technique issues, equipment is just fine tuning. 

[aenemated]

Yeah, more likely a technique issue than an equipment issue - check out Monte's "Use the Bounce" video. Great stuff there. 

[Bigjim1022]

Agreed in the technique issue, was more curious about the bounce question.  

[dlygrisse]

Fix the technique first, then worry about bounce. How do you guess what bounce is correct if your technique needs work.  Don’t put the cart before the horse. 

[Bigjim1022]

14 minutes ago, aenemated said:

Yeah, more likely a technique issue than an equipment issue - check out Monte's "Use the Bounce" video. Great stuff there. 

Monte being Colin Montgomery?

[aenemated]

26 minutes ago, Bigjim1022 said:

Monte being Colin Montgomery?

 

Nah, our own Monte Scheinblum. 

 

Use the Bounce 2.0

[ChipNRun]

 

4 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

Take a lesson. Major problems are technique issues, equipment is just fine tuning. 

This is the way to start. If possible, get a short-game lesson with someone who has worked with you on full swing. It's easier if you can blend the two.

 

Also, there's the issue of short-game strategy. Some now suggest engaging the bounce for chipping and pitching. This involves skimming the wedge or short iron along the ground to hit the ball.  This is the opposite of engaging the leading edge in which you hit down sharply on the ball.

 

Bouncers hope to gain a margin of error on short-game shots. If they hit the ball slightly thin, it will carry longer and have more bite. If they hit it slightly fat, the ball carries shorter but rolls out more.

 

Quite a few players now hit slightly behind the ball on their short shots to have a softer landing. In this video, GolfWRX's Johnny Wunder hears all about bounce as he demoes MD5 wedges with Roger Cleveland.

http://www.golfwrx.com/576978/callaway-jaws-md5-testing-with-roger-cleveland/

[TwistedSister]

Don't chip a lot with that lofted of a club.

[golfandtennisfan]

Bigjim1022,

 

if you are steep on wedges and take beaver pelts like I do, them more bounce is almost always you friend. But I agree with others that until you get a decent technique, you won’t have confidence with any wedges. 
 

To me the most important thing is to put the ball at the bottom of your swing arc when chipping and then the bounce is your ally. The starting point to try is center mass around your shirt buttons and adjust a bit fore or aft from there. That will make things much easier. Many in my experience play them to far back which will still dig If your descent angle is too steep as the leading edge will dig before you have a chance to engage the bounce. If ball is too forward of your bottom of swing, the bounce will skid as designed and come up and blade it over your target. Watch that ball position and things will get easier with just a bit of experimentation. 
After you figure that out I would just try to think shallow angle of attack and not too steep into the ball on chip shots. It should help. Good luck

[cw1209]

It's a little misleading to say more bounce is better. More bounce is sometimes better. If you have to guess and you don't have a chance to demo, higher bounce is the safe pick. At the same time I have seen a few "diggers" play well with low bounce wedges. Always exceptions to the rule. Sure you can work on technique, but a lot of us roll with the swing/technique we have been using for years. Experiment with a high and low bounce wedge in your bag. Common to see a higher bounce sand wedge and lower bounce lob wedge to give you a few more options around the green. Used wedges are also cheap. Get 3-4 used wedges with different bounces for $100 and see which one works for you. If you like Callaway, their pre-owned website is excellent and the return policy is pretty generous. 

[pinestreetgolf]

7 hours ago, Bigjim1022 said:

How do I know if I have too much bounce?  I play Cally MD4 X grind wedges in 54 & 58 degrees.  I really struggle with chipping, full craps aren’t great either but I by far struggle with chipping.  I practice chipping a lot but haven’t found any consistency and it’s really holding me back.  I’m looking at everything at this point trying to figure out what’s my game plan for next season as this one winds down.  
 

The course I play tend to be on the firmer side but not exclusively so and I take big divots.  I assumed I needed more bounce given my divot patterns but I’m not so sure now.  My contact isn’t consistent and i tend to skull or have the club bounce into the ball and leave it short.  
 

Bith wedges have 12° of bounce.  Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.  Also should note I’m off to find some chipping drills too, so I’m not thinking it’s just an equipment issue. 
 

Thanks!

 

OK, so there is a ton of misinformation in this thread.  Some well-meaning, most just flat-out wrong.

 

Bounce is the measurement of the angle between the leading edge and the sole.  No more, no less. It isn't inherently "good" or "bad" - its a measurement.  Its not "forgiving".  It is like loft, or weight, or length, or any other measurement we use on our clubs.  Its a physical measurement of an aspect of a golf club.

 

The effect of bounce is what happens when the sole of the club hits the ground.  On well struck shots bounce is completely irrelevant - the ball is already gone before the sole strikes the ground.  We only care about bounce when the club strikes the ground before the ball.  If the strike is clean - ball before turf - bounce is 100% irrelevant to the ball.  It doesn't matter at all.  On a clean strike, 1* of bounce and 30* of bounce are identical.  This is because the ball is already gone before the sole hits the ground so we don't care how far up the leading edge is raised.

 

Bounce interacts with turf in the following way.  The less bounce, the less angle between the sole and the leading edge, the more the club digs.  The more bounce, the greater the angle between the sole and the leading edge, the club literally "bounces" instead of digging (some technicians preach that "bounce" and "glide" are synonymous).

 

So, since bounce only matters when we hit the ground before the ball, we only care about for three reasons: 1. we make a mistake (forgiveness), 2. we hit behind the ball on purpose (like in a bunker) or 3. what we like to look at visually at address (tight leading edge or not).  There is no other reason why bounce matters.  Some people say there are feel issues on full-swing wedge shots with varying amounts of bounce.  This is likely just mental, as there is no reason in physics why it should matter how it feels once the ball is gone, but to those people I say fair enough.

 

That leads us to the OP's post, and a few more basic issues.  Three things are crucial to a good short game:

 

1. the ability to control loft at impact

2. the ability to control speed at impact

3. the ability to control the low point of your swing

 

Bounce helps with none of them, beyond the visual effect helping some players see shots better.  Bounce helps with mistakes (more soon) and on-purpose heavy shots (like bunkers).  If your short game stinks the bounce on your wedge is basically irrelevant (there are a lot of things that *are* relevant, but bounce isn't one of them since it only controls how our club works once we hit the sole on the ground).

 

Bounce mitigates mistakes by moving in the opposite direction of the swinger.  Steep swingers want high bounce.  They chilli dip (picture a steep wedge shot) and the miss is fat, so the last thing they want is a sharp, digging edge.  They want something that will "bounce" when they are just a bit too steep, producing a decent shot instead of a trench.  Similarly, shallow swingers want low bounce.  They are coming in shallow so high bounce will cause them to "bounce up" and blade the ball.  Since they are shallow, the tight leading edge of a low-bounce wedge can "nip" under the ball with a shallow swing.  Shallow swingers = less bounce, steep swingers = more bounce.

 

A good test to see if you are steep or shallow is to find a green with a hill nearby.  Hit 10 left hand only off the downslope and 10 right hand only off the upslope.  You will likely be comfortable with one and unable to even draw back the club on the other.  Those comfortable lefty/downslope are shallow, those comfy righty/upslope are steep.

 

It is not an accident that the grinds Vokey produces default their bounces to their swing types.  L grind is a tight leading edge meant for extremely shallow swingers - it comes in 4 bounce.  K grind is a wide-sole meant for extremely steep swingers - it comes in 12 bounce.

 

If you are struggling in the short game I strongly recommend Jamie Siedeckman's "Your Short Game Solution".  it is the best book i've ever read on the short game.  However, keep in mind that wedges have the following properties that actually help you 1. control speed 2. control loft and 3. control low point -

 

1. shaft length

2. swingweight

3. lie angle

4. visual appeal

5. static loft

6. grip

 

Only then should you move to the following, which only help you with forgiveness and confidence -

 

1. bounce

2. grind

3. type (cast vs. forged)

 

Sorry for the length.  After reading the thread I wanted to contribute something about bounce.

I realize there are hybrid styles (low-bounce K grind for Adam Scott, for example) that contradict this, but this is about 99% correct.

[pinestreetgolf]

Not sure why I can't edit.  Anyway, before dropping coin on some serious wedges, I'd recommend FWIW grabbing a Vokey cast sm5 56* 10 bounce S grind off ebay.  They are cheap, and the Vokey 56/10S is probably the most bog-standard wedge you will ever find except maybe either the CG1X series or the 2010 JAWS series.  But the sm5 56* Standard Grind with 10* of bounce is like the Vanilla Ice Cream of wedges compared to the MD5 C Grind Cherry Garcia.

 

If you want to pick up Siedeckman's book that might help too, but a few weeks with that wedge will teach you how you swing.

 

IMO, of course.  He teaches getting a simple wedge like that to start his course. I liked mine so much it just never left the bag.

[A.Princey]

Try to be less hands and wrist, shallow  your attack into the ball by making an almost super aggressive putting motion. Brush the grass, don’t chop at it. This should help almost immediately 

[Bigjim1022]

32 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

OK, so there is a ton of misinformation in this thread.  Some well-meaning, most just flat-out wrong.

 

Bounce is the measurement of the angle between the leading edge and the sole.  No more, no less. It isn't inherently "good" or "bad" - its a measurement.  Its not "forgiving".  It is like loft, or weight, or length, or any other measurement we use on our clubs.  Its a physical measurement of an aspect of a golf club.

 

The effect of bounce is what happens when the sole of the club hits the ground.  On well struck shots bounce is completely irrelevant - the ball is already gone before the sole strikes the ground.  We only care about bounce when the club strikes the ground before the ball.  If the strike is clean - ball before turf - bounce is 100% irrelevant to the ball.  It doesn't matter at all.  On a clean strike, 1* of bounce and 30* of bounce are identical.  This is because the ball is already gone before the sole hits the ground so we don't care how far up the leading edge is raised.

 

Bounce interacts with turf in the following way.  The less bounce, the less angle between the sole and the leading edge, the more the club digs.  The more bounce, the greater the angle between the sole and the leading edge, the club literally "bounces" instead of digging (some technicians preach that "bounce" and "glide" are synonymous).

 

So, since bounce only matters when we hit the ground before the ball, we only care about for three reasons: 1. we make a mistake (forgiveness), 2. we hit behind the ball on purpose (like in a bunker) or 3. what we like to look at visually at address (tight leading edge or not).  There is no other reason why bounce matters.  Some people say there are feel issues on full-swing wedge shots with varying amounts of bounce.  This is likely just mental, as there is no reason in physics why it should matter how it feels once the ball is gone, but to those people I say fair enough.

 

That leads us to the OP's post, and a few more basic issues.  Three things are crucial to a good short game:

 

1. the ability to control loft at impact

2. the ability to control speed at impact

3. the ability to control the low point of your swing

 

Bounce helps with none of them, beyond the visual effect helping some players see shots better.  Bounce helps with mistakes (more soon) and on-purpose heavy shots (like bunkers).  If your short game stinks the bounce on your wedge is basically irrelevant (there are a lot of things that *are* relevant, but bounce isn't one of them since it only controls how our club works once we hit the sole on the ground).

 

Bounce mitigates mistakes by moving in the opposite direction of the swinger.  Steep swingers want high bounce.  They chilli dip (picture a steep wedge shot) and the miss is fat, so the last thing they want is a sharp, digging edge.  They want something that will "bounce" when they are just a bit too steep, producing a decent shot instead of a trench.  Similarly, shallow swingers want low bounce.  They are coming in shallow so high bounce will cause them to "bounce up" and blade the ball.  Since they are shallow, the tight leading edge of a low-bounce wedge can "nip" under the ball with a shallow swing.  Shallow swingers = less bounce, steep swingers = more bounce.

 

A good test to see if you are steep or shallow is to find a green with a hill nearby.  Hit 10 left hand only off the downslope and 10 right hand only off the upslope.  You will likely be comfortable with one and unable to even draw back the club on the other.  Those comfortable lefty/downslope are shallow, those comfy righty/upslope are steep.

 

It is not an accident that the grinds Vokey produces default their bounces to their swing types.  L grind is a tight leading edge meant for extremely shallow swingers - it comes in 4 bounce.  K grind is a wide-sole meant for extremely steep swingers - it comes in 12 bounce.

 

If you are struggling in the short game I strongly recommend Jamie Siedeckman's "Your Short Game Solution".  it is the best book i've ever read on the short game.  However, keep in mind that wedges have the following properties that actually help you 1. control speed 2. control loft and 3. control low point -

 

1. shaft length

2. swingweight

3. lie angle

4. visual appeal

5. static loft

6. grip

 

Only then should you move to the following, which only help you with forgiveness and confidence -

 

1. bounce

2. grind

3. type (cast vs. forged)

 

Sorry for the length.  After reading the thread I wanted to contribute something about bounce.

I realize there are hybrid styles (low-bounce K grind for Adam Scott, for example) that contradict this, but this is about 99% correct.

Thank you!  I’ll definitely check out the book.

[Bigjim1022]

25 minutes ago, pinestreetgolf said:

Not sure why I can't edit.  Anyway, before dropping coin on some serious wedges, I'd recommend FWIW grabbing a Vokey cast sm5 56* 10 bounce S grind off ebay.  They are cheap, and the Vokey 56/10S is probably the most bog-standard wedge you will ever find except maybe either the CG1X series or the 2010 JAWS series.  But the sm5 56* Standard Grind with 10* of bounce is like the Vanilla Ice Cream of wedges compared to the MD5 C Grind Cherry Garcia.

 

If you want to pick up Siedeckman's book that might help too, but a few weeks with that wedge will teach you how you swing.

 

IMO, of course.  He teaches getting a simple wedge like that to start his course. I liked mine so much it just never left the bag.

Good idea!