How we perceive swingweight: measured weight vs weight location

[bnperrone]

I'm curious to get some feedback here. I have a hard time describing feel, but for me swingweight tends to be a window of acceptability. Below a certain SW when I waggle a club it wants to waver around. Above a certain point it feels like I'm working to start the swing. That window is a good couple points and I can't really discern any difference within that range. Each range varies based on wedges vs irons vs hybrids, etc. Recently I'm starting to thing there's something more to it, and that's the location of the weight in the head. I play a Ping G410 LST driver at a relatively low SW with the weight at the toe side. I'm thinking that toe weight in a club disproportionately impacts my perception of the SW. Does that make sense? For example, all else being the same, D3 with toe weight bias could feel just like D4 with neutral bias and just like D5 with heel bias? Those are just example numbers. Anybody have any thoughts on this?

[joostin]

Sure. SW and MOI of an assembled club indicate the torque (lengthwise) and resistance felt when holding, waggling, and moving the club.  However those measures aren't looking at the rotation of the head around the shaft axis.  It's not as big a torque or MOI, but it exists and is still felt - resistance to twist or roll the hands/wrists (which extends through the kinetic chain).  The farther the head's CG is from the shaft axis, the higher the torque and MOI, and the more resistance we'd feel in that regard.  IMO that's what you may be seeing with the toe weight, adding to the overall resistance felt.  We don't have anyone measuring or reporting on that type of resistance, so maybe it can be perceived as just a higher SW since that's all we know.

[bnperrone]

12 hours ago, joostin said:

Sure. SW and MOI of an assembled club indicate the torque (lengthwise) and resistance felt when holding, waggling, and moving the club.  However those measures aren't looking at the rotation of the head around the shaft axis.  It's not as big a torque or MOI, but it exists and is still felt - resistance to twist or roll the hands/wrists (which extends through the kinetic chain).  The farther the head's CG is from the shaft axis, the higher the torque and MOI, and the more resistance we'd feel in that regard.  IMO that's what you may be seeing with the toe weight, adding to the overall resistance felt.  We don't have anyone measuring or reporting on that type of resistance, so maybe it can be perceived as just a higher SW since that's all we know.

Right on, thanks for that. All makes sense.

[joostin]

21 hours ago, bnperrone said:

Right on, thanks for that. All makes sense.

Glad you brought it up. I posted the same message in the thread about SIM driver only hitting fades. It's a topic that IMO doesn't get enough notice because all the SW and MOI and balance discussions and measuring devices are all lengthwise of the club.  Its the only "number" we associate to feel (gotta add shaft torque value).  The torque & MOI of the head about the shaft axis and how it affects feel is kind of hidden and forgotten in that sense.

 

It also gets overlooked IMO when people talk about changing weights in heads.  For example, toe/rear weight causing fade bias because of gear effect; and causing dynamic face closure, toe droop, and added loft because the head's CG is trying to align itself with the shaft axis.  Those things are known and talked about, but I never really see mention of resistance, or sensitivity to it, of the clubhead rotating about the shaft axis.  The only thing that alludes to it is shaft torque value, but that needs to combine with a head's CG to even have torque introduced in the first place.

[bnperrone]

37 minutes ago, joostin said:

Glad you brought it up. I posted the same message in the thread about SIM driver only hitting fades. It's a topic that IMO doesn't get enough notice because all the SW and MOI and balance discussions and measuring devices are all lengthwise of the club.  Its the only "number" we associate to feel (gotta add shaft torque value).  The torque & MOI of the head about the shaft axis and how it affects feel is kind of hidden and forgotten in that sense.

 

It also gets overlooked IMO when people talk about changing weights in heads.  For example, toe/rear weight causing fade bias because of gear effect; and causing dynamic face closure, toe droop, and added loft because the head's CG is trying to align itself with the shaft axis.  Those things are known and talked about, but I never really see mention of resistance, or sensitivity to it, of the clubhead rotating about the shaft axis.  The only thing that alludes to it is shaft torque value, but that needs to combine with a head's CG to even have torque introduced in the first place.

Yeah, it really fills in the blanks on how I've been trying to quantify feel and preferences. I need to feel that toe side weight combined with my SW window to feel a smooth controlled takeaway rather than the head wanting to move around. If I don't have that toe side weight the result is usually going overboard on SW to try and make up for it. For me it's definitely a balance of the two to get into my ideal feel. I think if I was in an area with an MOI guru I'd go all-in on MOI matching.