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Reed caught improving lie again


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Just now, widow-maker said:

He can set the club down behind the ball.  Multiple times as long as he doesn't move the ball.  John Rahm got penalized for doing the exact same thing at the Memorial, I think it was, but that was because the ball moved.  He wasn't penalized for setting the club behind the ball.  What Reed did definitely falls in the category of setting the club down lightly.  There are plenty of tour pros who do it exactly the same way.  If they want to change the rule, then change it and make them hover the club.  But it's really no different than soling the club behind the ball in the fairway.  You're allowed to sole your club.  

no one is arguing whether or not you can sole your club -- the argument is that it was egregious enough to be considered improving his lie as his ball was near the collar -- and by him putting his club down multiple times, he was tamping down the grass so he could get better contact with his ball for the shot to be played.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, gioguy21 said:

no one is arguing whether or not you can sole your club -- the argument is that it was egregious enough to be considered improving his lie as his ball was near the collar -- and by him putting his club down multiple times, he was tamping down the grass so he could get better contact with his ball for the shot to be played.

In my view, he set it down lightly twice, and then again grounded his club lightly when he took his final stance.  All within the rules, in my opinion.  As far as I could tell he's not "tamping down" anything, he's gently resting the club behind the ball, as he is allowed to do.

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Sorry was called away.  I guess to clarify what I mean.  When I cite the old guys who did it.  I think it speaks to how the rules are interpreted by different people differently and I don’t think we should demonize that now if we aren’t willing to demonize the greats for doing it.  Same standard is what I’m saying.  
 

 

me personally.  I play it down even on LCP days as I don’t believe in putting hands on the ball.  It has to be a big gob of mud to make me touch it on those days.   I believe the golf gods or golf karma frowns on it.  And that maybe what we saw happen to Reed with his score Saturday.  But.  Until you’re ready to write a rule that says you must hover the club , it’s going to be subjective.    If we follow the rule posted above by the letter and black and white , then you cannot ground your club ever.  Even fairway your bending blades of grass.  Right ?  Especially with a hybrid or fairway wood.  So where’s the line ?  Is it naked eye ?  Is it only if Reed does it. ? Where ?  

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1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

Sorry was called away.  I guess to clarify what I mean.  When I cite the old guys who did it.  I think it speaks to how the rules are interpreted by different people differently and I don’t think we should demonize that now or we aren’t willing to demonize the greats for doing it.  
 

me personally.  I play it down even on LCP days as I don’t believe in putting hands in the ball.  It has to be a big gob of mud to make me touch it.  I believe the golf gods or golf karma frowns on it.  And that maybe what we saw happen to Reed with his score Saturday.  But.  Until you’re ready to write a rule that says you must hover the club , it’s going to be subjective.    If we follow the rule posted above by the letter and black and white , then you cannot ground your club ever.  Even fairway your bending blades of grass.  Right ?  Especially with a hybrid or fairway wood.  So where’s the line ?  Is it naked eye ?  Is it only if Reed does it. ? Where ?  

The rule says you can't bend or move things, EXCEPT that you are specifically allowed to lightly ground your club, right in front of or right behind the ball.  You are allowed to bend the grass when you ground your club, it is an exception to the general rule that you cannot bend or move growing or attached natural object.  Where is the line?  Pressing down heavily isn't allowed, grounding your club well away from the ball isn't allowed, I'm sure there are some other lines that could be crossed, but lightly grounding the club either right behind or right in front is OK.

 

I'm with you, the only reason this is getting attention is because its Patrick Reed.  I'm not excusing him based on something Gary Player may have done 40 years ago, I'm excusing him because, in my view, he did something that is specifically allowed under the rules.

 

I did go back and look at the original tweet that started this thread, and was surprised to find it took three entire days for this to percolate before someone stumbled on it and posted it here for discussion.  Apparently the rest of the golfing world isn't particularly outraged.

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3 minutes ago, davep043 said:

This is a reasonable point, so we should look at the wording of the rule:

 

"In preparing for or making a stroke, a player may take any of these actions and there is no penalty even if doing so improves the conditions affecting the stroke:

(1) Fairly search for his or her ball by taking reasonable actions to find and identify it (see Rule 7.1a).

(2) Take reasonable actions to remove loose impediments (see Rule 15.1) and movable obstructions (see Rule 15.2).

(3) Take reasonable actions to mark the spot of a ball and to lift and replace the ball under Rules 14.1 and 14.2.

(4) Ground the club lightly right in front of or right behind the ball."

 

So you are specifically allowed to ground the club, even if doing so improves the conditions affecting the stroke.  I'm not really convinced that he pushed the grass down all that much, but some improvement of his lie is specifically allowed under the rule.

 

grounding of the club albeit grey...is not what he was doing...putting your club behind the ball, CLEARLY pushing down the grass multiple times, walking away, coming back and doing it again is not what was intended by 'grounding of the club'...

grounding of the club would appear to mean before one's attempt of a stroke - not consistent tamping down over and over again. 

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19 minutes ago, davep043 said:

This is a reasonable point, so we should look at the wording of the rule:

 

"In preparing for or making a stroke, a player may take any of these actions and there is no penalty even if doing so improves the conditions affecting the stroke:

(1) Fairly search for his or her ball by taking reasonable actions to find and identify it (see Rule 7.1a).

(2) Take reasonable actions to remove loose impediments (see Rule 15.1) and movable obstructions (see Rule 15.2).

(3) Take reasonable actions to mark the spot of a ball and to lift and replace the ball under Rules 14.1 and 14.2.

(4) Ground the club lightly right in front of or right behind the ball."

 

So you are specifically allowed to ground the club, even if doing so improves the conditions affecting the stroke.  I'm not really convinced that he pushed the grass down all that much, but some improvement of his lie is specifically allowed under the rule.

 

Glad you added the bolded to the rule being discussed as that's key.   Let's face it, it all seems to come down to the definition of what is grounding the club "lightly."  How the heck would you determine when it goes beyond "lightly" in any sort of equitable, uniform manner?

 

What's the rule book definition of "grounding the club" as that seems to be what gioguy is getting at?  Also, the rule says, "in preparing to make a stroke."  Does that mean just any time before you actually make your stroke (like Reed and others do?) or only literally when you put the club down and then take the shot?

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21 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Sorry was called away.  I guess to clarify what I mean.  When I cite the old guys who did it.  I think it speaks to how the rules are interpreted by different people differently and I don’t think we should demonize that now if we aren’t willing to demonize the greats for doing it.  Same standard is what I’m saying.  
 

 

me personally.  I play it down even on LCP days as I don’t believe in putting hands on the ball.  It has to be a big gob of mud to make me touch it on those days.   I believe the golf gods or golf karma frowns on it.  And that maybe what we saw happen to Reed with his score Saturday.  But.  Until you’re ready to write a rule that says you must hover the club , it’s going to be subjective.    If we follow the rule posted above by the letter and black and white , then you cannot ground your club ever.  Even fairway your bending blades of grass.  Right ?  Especially with a hybrid or fairway wood.  So where’s the line ?  Is it naked eye ?  Is it only if Reed does it. ? Where ?  

That's a very fair point and I appreciate you clarifying.  For me, I'll listen to a debate on Rule 8 all day.  The rules are interesting.  I'm just not a fan of the relativism argument, i.e.: "everybody cheats/does it, so it's okay."  That's the argument I thought you were making (here and the other time the topic came up), but you've clarified that nicely.  Thanks.

 

As for Rule 8.1, the lie is discussed as part of the subtext.  The title of the actual rule is "Player’s Actions That Improve Conditions Affecting the Stroke".  The lie of the ball is one of, but not the only, condition affecting the stroke.  That makes it clear to me that even if you're not changing the lie, if you're doing something that makes it easier for you to put a stroke on the ball, it's a no-go.

 

Agree it's subjective whether or not a player is "grounding their club lightly behind the ball" or "pressing the club on the ground."  But if they didn't care about smashing the grass behind the ball, then why would they have ever added the part about not being allowed to "press the club on the ground?"  There'd be no reason for that specific part of the rule.

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10 minutes ago, gioguy21 said:

 

grounding of the club albeit grey...is not what he was doing...putting your club behind the ball, CLEARLY pushing down the grass multiple times, walking away, coming back and doing it again is not what was intended by 'grounding of the club'...

grounding of the club would appear to mean before one's attempt of a stroke - not consistent tamping down over and over again. 

Please find me something in the rules that supports your view.  Anything.

 

Separately, it appears to me that he's setting his club down fairly gently, but I'm only basing that on the relatively slow movement of the club.  I can't tell for sure how much pressure he's putting on it, I don't believe you can tell either.  

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2 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I guess I'll ask the question of the group.  Does anyone (besides me) lightly ground the club behind a ball in order to assess how the ball is lying?  If its sitting down right on firm underlying ground its one thing, if its sitting up on some fluffy grass its another, that information goes into the planning of how I'll try to hit a particular shot.  To me, that's part of "preparing for a shot".  Is lightly grounding the club behind the ball and then walking away prohibited by that rule?  Once you ground your club, are you required to go through with the shot or else face a penalty?  I don't believe that's what the wording of the rule requires, I don't believe its the intent of the rule.

 

I don't know any of the answers, lol, but perfect questions.

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1 minute ago, davep043 said:

I guess I'll ask the question of the group.  Does anyone (besides me) lightly ground the club behind a ball in order to assess how the ball is lying?  If its sitting down right on firm underlying ground its one thing, if its sitting up on some fluffy grass its another, that information goes into the planning of how I'll try to hit a particular shot.  To me, that's part of "preparing for a shot".  Is lightly grounding the club behind the ball and then walking away prohibited by that rule?  Once you ground your club, are you required to go through with the shot or else face a penalty?  I don't believe that's what the wording of the rule requires, I don't believe its the intent of the rule.

He did not cheat, he did not break a rule. What he did was fine, and is what countless of others do. Maybe they should write much more specific language in the rule book. But many already view it as too complicated already. No reason for the USGA to paint themselves into a corner, especially when they are trying to simplify things. 

I assume this is being deafly hashed out here because of Reed's prior rep,, that and who isn't ready to light a torch these days?

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16 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Please find me something in the rules that supports your view.  Anything.

 

Separately, it appears to me that he's setting his club down fairly gently, but I'm only basing that on the relatively slow movement of the club.  I can't tell for sure how much pressure he's putting on it, I don't believe you can tell either.  

they don't that's why i said it's grey -- and the fact he does it more than one time is in MY OPINION beyond the rules and therefore improving his lie. 

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10 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I guess I'll ask the question of the group.  Does anyone (besides me) lightly ground the club behind a ball in order to assess how the ball is lying?  If its sitting down right on firm underlying ground its one thing, if its sitting up on some fluffy grass its another, that information goes into the planning of how I'll try to hit a particular shot.  To me, that's part of "preparing for a shot".  Is lightly grounding the club behind the ball and then walking away prohibited by that rule?  Once you ground your club, are you required to go through with the shot or else face a penalty?  I don't believe that's what the wording of the rule requires, I don't believe its the intent of the rule.

Dave -- this is along the same lines of building a stance whilst in a bunker -- do you understand that rule as well?

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6 minutes ago, Mr. Grumpy said:

He did not cheat, he did not break a rule. What he did was fine, and is what countless of others do. Maybe they should write much more specific language in the rule book. But many already view it as too complicated already. No reason for the USGA to paint themselves into a corner, especially when they are trying to simplify things. 

I assume this is being deafly hashed out here because of Reed's prior rep,, that and who isn't ready to light a torch these days?

 

This really doesn't have to just be about Reed.  As has been noted, numerous players do a similar thing.

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13 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I guess I'll ask the question of the group.  Does anyone (besides me) lightly ground the club behind a ball in order to assess how the ball is lying?  If its sitting down right on firm underlying ground its one thing, if its sitting up on some fluffy grass its another, that information goes into the planning of how I'll try to hit a particular shot.  To me, that's part of "preparing for a shot".  Is lightly grounding the club behind the ball and then walking away prohibited by that rule?  Once you ground your club, are you required to go through with the shot or else face a penalty?  I don't believe that's what the wording of the rule requires, I don't believe its the intent of the rule.

 

 

to go further into this -- if i'm in the fairway...there's nothing behind my ball and therefore grounding my club as many times as i like is not an issue. in this case, he was near a rough collar which by most accounts could've impeded his stroke or ability to get club first contact on the ball...in this case, he put his club down (lightly or not) multiple times only to back away and return to it, doing the same thing again until it would appear to the camera and the lay person that the grass is now tamped down and his ability to hit the shot has improved. 

 

i brought up the building a stance discussion b/c in a bunker there are people who make a stance...then get out of it...walk back in...etc...how do you define building a stance...is it so obvious or...do you know it when you see it?

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8.1b/1 – Meaning of “Ground the Club Lightly”

Rule 8.1b allows a player to ground the club lightly directly in front of or behind the ball, even if that improves his or her lie or area of intended swing.

“Ground the club lightly” means allowing the weight of the club to be supported by the grass, soil, sand or other material on or above the ground surface.

But the player gets the penalty under Rule 8.1a if he or she improves the lie or area of intended swing by pressing the club down more than lightly.

See Rule 12.2b(1) (When Touching Sand Results in Penalty) for when a player gets a penalty for touching sand in a bunker.

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1 minute ago, Emmett said:
8.1b/1 – Meaning of “Ground the Club Lightly”

Rule 8.1b allows a player to ground the club lightly directly in front of or behind the ball, even if that improves his or her lie or area of intended swing.

“Ground the club lightly” means allowing the weight of the club to be supported by the grass, soil, sand or other material on or above the ground surface.

But the player gets the penalty under Rule 8.1a if he or she improves the lie or area of intended swing by pressing the club down more than lightly.

See Rule 12.2b(1) (When Touching Sand Results in Penalty) for when a player gets a penalty for touching sand in a bunker.

 

understood -- and again, not debating what is defined as grounding a club. the discussion is whether or not repeated attempts to 'ground the club' is egregious enough to cause a penalty...which it would appear many believe it is. 

 

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1 minute ago, gioguy21 said:

i brought up the building a stance discussion b/c in a bunker there are people who make a stance...then get out of it...walk back in...etc...how do you define building a stance...is it so obvious or...do you know it when you see it?

A player is specifically allowed to "dig in" when taking his stance more than once, including in a bunker.  He can dig in, walk away, and return and dig in again.  The player is NOT allowed to move sand around to create a level area on which to stand.  I'm going to interpret this as saying the player cannot level out his initial footprints before re-taking his stance, as that would constitute building a stance.  So fairly taking a stance, including digging in, is considered different from moving sand around to build a stance.  Both examples are in the Interpretations, I didn't quote them specifically.

 

 

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2 hours ago, gioguy21 said:

no one is arguing whether or not you can sole your club -- the argument is that it was egregious enough to be considered improving his lie as his ball was near the collar -- and by him putting his club down multiple times, he was tamping down the grass so he could get better contact with his ball for the shot to be played.

 

 

Except you exaggerate what he did to suit your argument. 

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Professional golf is not a place to get bent out of shape about the rules of golf.  It's like trying to apply Greco-Roman wrestling rules to the WWF.

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      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
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