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USGA Distance Rollback and the Future of Golf?


PJE

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We've all heard about the USGA Distance Insight Project. Reportedly, they are resuming work on it.  I read comments from Mike Davis, USGA, today in which he essentially said  governance is not about being popular and he alluded to not being content with the status quo (regarding distance).

DeChambeau destroyed Winged Foot (even though he was the only guy under par and he putted well) but Winged Foot and other blue blooded older clubs are near and dear to the heart of the USGA.  More importantly, DeChambeau's way of playing, full speed ahead and damn the rough, seems a portent of things to come (maybe) in golf. (There are already plenty of hulking long drivers who can't  actually play golf, i.e., score).

I think the USGA is going to roll back distance by about 20%, probably via a ball rollback, by 2022.

I started playing golf when persimmon clubs, blades, and balata balls were pretty much the only things available and when a good amateur golfer usually drove the ball about 225 yards, maybe 230 yards. Golf is a hell of a lot more fun today hitting longer drives and shorter irons.

The USGA has not shown a willingness to embrace bifurcation, even thought that makes sense. 

If the USGA does roll back distance, what do you think will be the future?  

  • The PGA Tour accepts the new USGA rules?
  • The PGA Tour and manufacturers enter into coalition to play under PGA Tour rules which supercede USGA Rules?
  • Manufacturers and/or the PGA Tour sue the USGA?
  • What would most recreational golfers do? Play by the revised USGA rules or just buy and play illicit equipment (during recreational rounds)?  Would new rules lessen participation in amateur events, e.g., club championships, etc.? 
  • Would a distance rollback hurt or help the game?
Edited by PJE
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these of course are just my opinions but to your questions: and yes I put them out of order because they tied in better that way ? 

 

What would most recreational golfers do? Play by the revised USGA rules or just buy and play illicit equipment (during recreational rounds)?  Would new rules lessen participation in amateur events, e.g., club championships, etc.? ----I see the bifurcation of rules here for sure. Of all golfers with or without handicap they say about half can't regularly break 100, you just can't alienate that large of group and have only acceptable losses. I think it would show in high level amateur events and higher only, some local club players would most likely be unaffected.

 

The PGA Tour accepts the new USGA rules? ----- tough to say, depends how to achieve the roll back. You can't just dumb down equipment to make a Bryson hit 250 per se. What happens to the shorter players on tour? too bad get out? it would have to be done in a way that doesn't screw over other talented ball strikers.

 

The PGA Tour and manufacturers enter into coalition to play under PGA Tour rules which supersede USGA Rules-----tough to say, the USGA and R&A are the ruling bodies as is. That means you're adding a 3rd body that has to have a full set of rules, then you have all the tours and Jr tours that have to decide which group to play under.

 

Manufacturers and/or the PGA Tour sue the USGA-----If it is to bifurcation no, if it's a straight change yes. Looking at even thw groove changes they gave years and years to come into play. Your timeline is 2 years, which is so fast for OEMs to shift, especially with all the R&D going on.

 

Would a distance rollback hurt or help the game? ----- unequivocally hurt, we're literally talking about changing the game because the top 1% of PGA golfers, which is such a tough achievement already are hitting it to far? Some of the younger golfers are treating this more like the explosive muscle sport golf and the golf swing are. In no other sport to we punish someone for being too athletic. We don't weigh down football players because they run a 4.2 40, the defenders just need to use they other skills and technique to neutralize it. To me golf should be the same. Just because you not the longest driver doesn't mean your out of the game, just out putt them, out short game them ect.

 

To end my rant there this is why the USGA has so many haters. Someone conforms to all their rules, and finds are way to be the best that they can via athletically and tweaking their swing and equipment, within the rules, and the reaction is to punish them. One player under par, the cut line was +6, just tip your cap and say man you played well

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This passage from  his comments stood out to me, 

“I look at the things we knew would be hard and unpopular with some, like anchoring and distance,” he said. “I remember when the board talked to me about applying for the position, and one of the things I said to them was, ‘We have to be willing to take on tough issues if they need to be taken on.’ And I used distance as an example. Because I love golf courses. It’s just destroyed me to see what’s happened in some ways because of distance. I said, ‘I’m not interested in this [job] if you are not willing to take that on.’

“There were times, the USGA and R&A would admit this, where we thought, ‘Ok, everything that’s out there now, that’s good, let’s stop it right there.’ Instead of saying, ‘Wait a second. We’ve already gone too far. What’s best for the game?’  And I’ve always kind of thought that way. And every time I’m in an equipment meeting, I remind everyone, ‘Before we say, this is where we are, and we can stop it here,’ ask yourselves, is that the right thing for the game?’ If you are governing body, that’s your responsibility in the long term. Don’t take the easy way out.

"Governance is not a popularity contest.”

 

Kinda seems like the USGA's mind is made up already.

 

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@PJE

“Golf is a hell of a lot more fun today hitting longer drives and shorter irons.”

 

Please explain why taking away more than half of the game is ‘more fun.’

 

I just don’t see it unless you want to make the game easier for those with less skill, who don’t want to face the challenge of the game as it was designed.

 

I would appreciate your point of view on your statement.

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3 minutes ago, mahonie said:

@PJE

“Golf is a hell of a lot more fun today hitting longer drives and shorter irons.”

 

Please explain why taking away more than half of the game is ‘more fun.’

 

I just don’t see it unless you want to make the game easier for those with less skill, who don’t want to face the challenge of the game as it was designed.

 

I would appreciate your point of view on your statement.

Because it's fun to hit it relatively far and to feel like you have a chance to get on (for me, shorter) par 5 in two.  Shorter irons give one, theoretically, more control and are easier to hit. The better you hit it, the better you feel?

As far as the game was designed, I think it's solely about getting a small ball into a small hole over an expanse. I don't think it was "designed to be hard" but the task at hand is, by its nature, difficult. But progress has been continually made with the aim of making the game easier- steel shafts, perimeter weighted clubs, the sand wedge, better golf balls. If making it easier was not a viable goal and the "challenge" was solely the goal, I think we'd still be playing with gutta percha balls and hickory shafts?

As far as making it easier, yes, easier is a benefit for a lot of people and it keeps them in the game.   Golf is a hard game but if it can be made marginally easier for people to get around  a course and get the ball in the air, then I am all for it. For example, my wife plays golf with me from time to time. She could care less about the "challenge". Her hybrid style irons, jacked lofts,  graphite shafts, and a modern golf ball help her a lot. And every once in a while, she hits a really good shot. 

The USGA talks about growing the game but a rollback is going to hurt it.  Courses in my area have closed due to a lack of revenue so the more people we can get playing the better?

 

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" No I'm not Grandpa, I'm playing tennis."
 "No, you're playing golf and you're going to like it."
 

 

 

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I think Bryson made an accurate assessment of the setup and the implications on strategy (there were none), which ultimately was a failure by the USGA. If you make the entire fairway more narrow, you have the same impact (also defined as "none") on all players. That was the problem. Bryson wasn't even the longest hitter of the week, but when he missed, he was hitting wedge. When Joe Schmo tour guy missed, he was hitting 6i. Bryson wins. 

 

The actual solution in my opinion has nothing to do with balls, or clubs, or even the length of courses. The solution is to make longer shots harder to execute / more penalizing if you miss. Eg: if the USGA had pinched the fairways tighter and tigher post-300 yards, then players had a real decision to make. Would I rather hit wedge, possibly from the rough, or 7i from the fairway? Several of my local courses have holes where I literally can't hit driver. There is a hazard at 250 and carrying it would require me to hit it 300 on the fly, which I can't do. Therefore, I pull out a different club on the tee, accepting that I'll have a longer second shot as dictated by the course. In the absence of true hazards, course architects and superindendents could simply pinch the fairways in.

Edited by dmc97
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USGA let the equipment get out of control themselves.  They have to sleep in their bed.  No one is complaining so why is there a problem that needs to be fixed.  So the older courses can be overpowered and their design elements are obsolete.  Time marches on.  The courses were designed for a past that no longer exists.  Bulldoze them under and build new courses if that is such a problem.  Or instead of bifurcation which is idiotic, have a special ball for certain pro tournaments and amateur tournaments.  I thought it was the neatest thing when I was a kid and they used a different ball in the British Open.  

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13 minutes ago, dmc97 said:

I think Bryson made an accurate assessment of the setup and the implications on strategy (there were none), which ultimately was a failure by the USGA. If you make the entire fairway more narrow, you have the same impact (also defined as "none") on all players. That was the problem. Bryson wasn't even the longest hitter of the week, but when he missed, he was hitting wedge. When Joe Schmo tour guy missed, he was hitting 6i. Bryson wins. 

 

The actual solution in my opinion has nothing to do with balls, or clubs, or even the length of courses. The solution is to make longer shots harder to execute / more penalizing if you miss. Eg: if the USGA had pinched the fairways tighter and tigher post-300 yards, then players had a real decision to make. Would I rather hit wedge, possibly from the rough, or 7i from the fairway? Several of my local courses have holes where I literally can't hit driver. There is a hazard at 250 and carrying it would require me to hit it 300 on the fly, which I can't do. Therefore, I pull out a different club on the tee, accepting that I'll have a longer second shot as dictated by the course. In the absence of true hazards, course architects and superindendents could simply pinch the fairways in.

 

I posted something similar in another thread. Plant more trees closer to the fairway...if you miss you are chipping out or it’s a lost ball (happens a lot at my course!). Problem is OEMs would only sell half as many drivers and along with balls, that is their cash cow.

 

USGA/R&A let the genie out of the bag with the Pro V1 and 460cc Driver and they’re going to struggle to get that right.

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1 hour ago, MtlJeff said:

Governance is not about being popular....LOL, wouldn't expect anything else from him

 

We're talking about a sport, not running a prison. It is in fact important that people enjoy it. 

 

But no go do your study and make changes that pretty much no one is asking for and affects less than 1% of golfers, based on optics you don't like. 

 

Last i checked very few amateurs are carrying it 330 and bringing their local munis to their knees. Let's roll back the ball!


This should be the beginning, middle, and end of every one of these threads. 

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7 minutes ago, Valtiel said:


This should be the beginning, middle, and end of every one of these threads. 

 

I gave up the game for 5 years, got old and gained 30 yards!  Yes the equipment is making it easy.  I do miss having to hit a pure 4 iron into a green.  It really took skill.  Golf is way too easy for the pros now.  Roll back the ball, it will barely affect amateurs.

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48 minutes ago, Golf10 said:

 

I gave up the game for 5 years, got old and gained 30 yards!  Yes the equipment is making it easy.  I do miss having to hit a pure 4 iron into a green.  It really took skill.  Golf is way too easy for the pros now.  Roll back the ball, it will barely affect amateurs.

 

Why don't you have to hit 4 irons anymore? Thats an honest question,  are you carrying it 300+ or playing a very short course?

 

I play a 6700yd course and carry it 260+ and I'm still hitting 4 irons. We have a 420yd 90 degree dogleg, we have a 450yd par 4 with water in play at the 200yd mark so very few people challenge it. We have 2 different 210yd par 3s on the same 9

 

Bryson might hit 8 irons into these but 99% of us schmucks are not

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I don't hit 4 iron anymore because they invented the hybrid...

 

I'm no fan of the USGA generally, but I guess they are a necessary but sometimes out of touch organization (see Lee Trevino's quote about becoming a USGA Committeeman).  They do the Rules, conduct the national championships, etc.  However, they too often have really messed up, especially with some US Open setups, but also with taking forever to make some rules changes, most notably anchored putting.  

 

And they may be (Probably?) out of touch with most golfers - do they really care about recreational golfers?  No.  Only to the extent that they need their $, either directly (join the USGA! Buy our stuff!) or indirectly (watch the tournaments).

 

I just tend to ignore/not think much about them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

Why don't you have to hit 4 irons anymore? Thats an honest question,  are you carrying it 300+ or playing a very short course?

 

I play a 6700yd course and carry it 260+ and I'm still hitting 4 irons. We have a 420yd 90 degree dogleg, we have a 450yd par 4 with water in play at the 200yd mark so very few people challenge it. We have 2 different 210yd par 3s on the same 9

 

Bryson might hit 8 irons into these but 99% of us schmucks are not

 

My home course is 6,900 yards and I haven't hit a 4 iron into a part 4 in years except on very windy days.  Driving distance is about 305.  Same swing that used to be 270.  IMO the ball goes was too far.  Bring back skill.

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3 minutes ago, Golf10 said:

 

My home course is 6,900 yards and I haven't hit a 4 iron into a part 4 in years except on very windy days.  Driving distance is about 305.  Same swing that used to be 270.  IMO the ball goes was too far.  Bring back skill.

 

I guess it depends on course design too. We have a 7000yd course around here that is pretty straight so most holes are driver holes. If my total distance is 280~ or so im not hitting 4 irons into the par 4s.

 

But hitting a modern 6 iron isn't too far off an older 4 iron i guess. My 4 iron is 21 degrees

 

I like the game just fine,  its the one I grew up with (I'm 39 and started playing at 22, after the pro v came about)

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The USGA is obsolete and has been for some time.  They botched it with the anchor ruling and botched it with the groove ruling.  I've wanted the PGA Tour to go do their own thing and leave these 2 'governing bodies' in the dust ages ago.  Bunch of guys with over inflated self worth and egos who think they control the golfing world.  We should all line up and kick them as they walk out the door.

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Let's just cut to the chase and have a tournament of all par 3's.  Range them from 130 - 230.  After all, we don't want the big hitters to have an advantage bombing it 350.  We can't have that, it is ruining the game.  Why?   Because golf is all about precision irons and putting?  Then fine, just take driver out of the game, shorten the courses and may the best putter win.  It won't exactly make for compelling TV, but think of all the water we will save!  ?

 

 

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44 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

According to the annual USGA distance report, average distance is around 220. Of course , average distance for lower handicappers is longer , around 245 for 0-5 handicappers.Looking at these stats it is obvious that most golfers are not bombing it and that only the better amateurs and pros have been have been able to maximize the advantages of technology .

Between increased costs and  5 hour rounds , golf’s future looks questionable .If the USGA decides to  add to these headwinds by lowering distance off of the tee for average golfer, it will be a death knell.

 

Create a different, reduced flight ball for the professionals so that courses don't need to continue to expand for that very elite group.  Leave the amateurs, the largest group of golfers,  alone- they won't want to use a reduced flight ball anyway.

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One scenario you paint seems like lunacy- the PGA tour does not dial back distance, but the USGA does for the average golfer. I can never see that happening. Taking distance away from the average golf makes no sense to grow the game.

 

Not sure of the science but it would be great if the governing bodies could put regulations in that disproportionally effect distance the faster you swing. For instance a ball that sees no reduction in distance until you reach around 100 mph would be ideal and then have the reduction in distance increase as speed goes up. Long guys would still be longer than short guys but the difference would be compressed. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

One scenario you paint seems like lunacy- the PGA tour does not dial back distance, but the USGA does for the average golfer. I can never see that happening. Taking distance away from the average golf makes not sense to grow the game.

 

Not sure of the science but it would be great if the governing bodies could put regulations in that disproportionally effect distance the faster you swing. For instance a ball that sees no reduction in distance until you reach around 100 mph would be ideal and then have the reduction in distance increase as speed goes up. Long guys would still be longer than short guys but the difference would be compressed. 

 

 

The science pretty much does not support such a magic ball or at least enough to matter.  Furthermore punishing golfers who have put in the hard work to create a swing at 100+ mph shouldn't be punished for their dedication.

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1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The science pretty much does not support such a magic ball or at least enough to matter.  Furthermore punishing golfers who have put in the hard work to create a swing at 100+ mph shouldn't be punished for their dedication.

Diminishing returns is not that unusual in other endeavours, no one is getting punished, just receiving less of a reward. It would encourage golfer to put their energy elsewhere to get the reward.

 

I am sure a ball could be created that beings to lose performance after a certain speed. Not sure sure how the USGA set the standards, bit it now an area I have any great knowledge about.

 

I am sure you can guess roughly what my swing is.?

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, 2bGood said:

Demising returns is not that unusual in other endeavours, no one is getting punished, just receiving less of a reward. It would encourage golfer to put their energy elsewhere to get the reward.

 

I am sure a ball could be created that beings to lose performance after a certain speed. Not sure sure how the USGA set the standards, bit it now an area I have any great knowledge about.

 

I am sure you can guess roughly what my swing is.?

 

 

 

 

 

My physics degree says it is highly unlikely such a ball can be produced, but I won't be surprised if the RBs try to go down that path.  Once again it is an area they are not good at and will likely screw up.

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How many people against a rollback are actually selfish in nature, afraid of losing 20-30 yards off the tee themselves? Some people come on here full of fire, almost like someone told them they might have to work on Christmas....

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43 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Demising returns is not that unusual in other endeavours, no one is getting punished, just receiving less of a reward. It would encourage golfer to put their energy elsewhere to get the reward.

 

I am sure a ball could be created that beings to lose performance after a certain speed. Not sure sure how the USGA set the standards, bit it now an area I have any great knowledge about.

 

I am sure you can guess roughly what my swing is.?

 

 

 

 

 

You do realize your swing speed will remain 100ish mph after a potential rollback???? Now ballspeed, there's the real number that matters in the ego dept.....

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      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

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