USGA Distance Rollback and the Future of Golf?

[storm319]

22 minutes ago, maamold said:

That's not how it works. Just because there is a limit doesn't mean that manufactures could come close to it. 80 years ago a limit was set and the balls back then could not reach the limit, now manufactures have the technology to design and make balls  right at that limit.

Actually some OEMs had wound models were near the initial velocity limit as well and had the ability to exceed that limit if they wanted years before the advent of the multilayer ball (just ask Dean Snell). Due to the nature of the construction, wound balls were more expensive to produce, less consistent ball to ball, and started degrading in a few years (hence the reason you can’t do a fair head to head test today since wound balls haven’t been produced in nearly 20 years). The adoption of synthetic cover materials (urethane and ionomer) did result in a drop in spin (modern clubs have arguably had a greater impact), but this did not have much of an impact on ballspeed.

Edited October 2, 2020 by storm319

[storm319]

2 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Don't forget they get to play the U. S. Open at Merion every 20 years as well and it keeps the score less than -20 at The Old Course most of the time at the Open Championship.  Woohoo.

Last US Open at Merion = 2013, 6996 yds

First US Open at Merion = 1934, 6694 yds

 

Only a 4.5% increase and neither had a single player finish under par.

[2bGood]

13 hours ago, Lincoln_Arcadia said:

I’m making a bold statement that they’ll play much better if playing on appropriate tees. 5500 yards for a player who is playing well within himself to hit 205 yards with his driver and 100 yards with a PW.

 

 

I am not sure it is true. The last few years I have played around 15 rounds per year from the front tees as I am playing with my kids. I Have to go 8 shots lower to shoot my cap. I can do it, but it is no cake walk and Typically hurts my cap rather than helps it.

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, 2bGood said:

 

I am not sure it is true. The last few years I have played around 15 rounds per year from the front tees as I am playing with my kids. I Have to go 8 shots lower to shoot my cap. I can do it, but it is no cake walk and Typically hurts my cap rather than helps it.

Yeah, shooting a lower score is not necessarily a better round when compared to the course rating.

[maamold]

11 minutes ago, storm319 said:

Actually wound balls were near the initial velocity limit as well and OEMs have had the ability to exceed that limit years before the advent of the multilayer ball (just ask Dean Snell). Due to the nature of the construction, wound balls were more expensive to produce and less consistent ball to ball. The adoption of synthetic cover materials (urethane and ionomer) did result in a drop in spin (modern clubs have a large impact as well), but this did not have much of an impact on ballspeed.

The USGA initial Velocity test didn't exist until 2003.

[mahonie]

7 hours ago, Shilgy said:

So if I understand this correctly....we should accept a ball rollback from the USGA....move up a few tees so that our average approach is with a wedge....all because the same USGA does not like watching the pros hit driver wedge into every hole?

 

Do I have that right? 

Why would it be less walking time?  I walk right past the back tee anyways on most holes. The walk is the same I just stop at a different tee.

 

I forgot that long courses that have a multitude of tee boxes are always designed to accommodate the longest configuration. The longest walk from green to tee I’m used to is about 60 yards, most of the time the tee is pretty adjacent to the last green.

[storm319]

9 hours ago, maamold said:

The USGA initial Velocity test didn't exist until 2003.

Wrong. The current testing protocol was published on their website in 2003, but the limit has stood since the 1940’s (only reference to a year I could find was in this article from 1958 again making the point that this argument about the ball being too long has stood for decades before the advent of the solid core, multilayer urethane ball).

 

https://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/?file=/1950s/1958/580207.pdf

 

The last regulation added by the USGA was the overall distance standard (ODS) in 1976. So again the modern solid core, multilayer urethane balls that we play today were subject to all of the same limits as their wound predecessors.

[chippa13]

6 hours ago, mahonie said:

 

I forgot that long courses that have a multitude of tee boxes are always designed to accommodate the longest configuration. The longest walk from green to tee I’m used to is about 60 yards, most of the time the tee is pretty adjacent to the last green.

 

Most of the courses around here the routing seems to accomodate to and from the mid tees. The times when I've played the backs we would get to the next hole and there would usually be the "They got us back there today" from someone. But honestly, it really doesn't add more than about so many seconds of walking without bags so there isn't generally time saved on a round based on walking the backs versus the mids.

[Talldog]

23 hours ago, jvincent said:

No disagreement on the belly putter.

 

I honestly don't think the groove rule hurt the amateurs we're talking about, i.e. 15-ish indexes. Those guys don't generate enough clubhead speed through the rough to have grooves make a difference. Most of them have a hard time spinning a wedge from a clean lie in the fairway.

 

Most, not all. The belly putter ban also affected a minority of golfers.

 

But it's the chip, chip, chipping away at amateurs with minor rule changes that eventually builds up.

 

Small strokes fell great oaks is an old saying for a reason: it's true.

[Talldog]

8 hours ago, mahonie said:

 

I forgot that long courses that have a multitude of tee boxes are always designed to accommodate the longest configuration. The longest walk from green to tee I’m used to is about 60 yards, most of the time the tee is pretty adjacent to the last green.

 

You must not have played a course built in the subdivision golf course craze.

 

The point was to have as many homes on the golf course as possible (to increase the price of the lots). Consequently, the route of the course was stretched out, often in wacky ways.

[mahonie]

1 hour ago, Talldog said:

 

You must not have played a course built in the subdivision golf course craze.

 

The point was to have as many homes on the golf course as possible (to increase the price of the lots). Consequently, the route of the course was stretched out, often in wacky ways.

 

I haven’t and that sounds like a good thing. A course round here has longer than normal walks from green to tee and it is a real slog to get around.

 

I may be mis-remembering, but I am almost sure that Greg Norman took credit for inventing the ‘golf community’ development craze in his autobiography.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

15 hours ago, storm319 said:

Actually some OEMs had wound models were near the initial velocity limit as well and had the ability to exceed that limit if they wanted years before the advent of the multilayer ball (just ask Dean Snell). Due to the nature of the construction, wound balls were more expensive to produce, less consistent ball to ball, and started degrading in a few years (hence the reason you can’t do a fair head to head test today since wound balls haven’t been produced in nearly 20 years). The adoption of synthetic cover materials (urethane and ionomer) did result in a drop in spin (modern clubs have arguably had a greater impact), but this did not have much of an impact on ballspeed.

Interesting, my balata seem okay? I’ve only got a couple dozen left. 
 

All this talk about old equipment underperforming inspired me to play more with the old stuff. Haha!

[platgof]

I am sure engineers can create certain dimples that would make the ball perform in the manner they want. Do you think ball manufacturers are going to allow this? Not a chance in he!! will they allow this. Pros sell golf balls, play on Sunday, sell on Monday. Nicklaus is right about it being the ball, but this will hurt the manufacturers, and they pay the bills. Can course management help, it is expensive building new courses now, land ain't cheap. The pros used to be challenged by long bunker shots, not anymore. The scots fix it with bunkers that create night mares! The ball is the cheapest solution other than growing the grass higher. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by platgof

[Soloman1]

1 hour ago, platgof said:

... but this will hurt the manufacturers, and they pay the bills.

 

I'm not sure what bills they are paying. Manufacturers don't sponsor tournaments. They pay the bills of TV and other media people with ad money. They fill the pockets of Tour pros with ridiculous amounts of money. They think people rush out and buy Cobra golf clubs because Bryson and Rickie use them, but it's a tax write off. I don't believe that the average golfer (~55years old) buys clothes or clubs because these two pros wear something or use something.

 

It's great for the players, but is it great for the game? 90% of Tour pro income is from endorsements and only 10% from purses.

 

I'm done with my whine now... 😉

Edited October 7, 2020 by Soloman1

[cutchemist42]

Didnt the Brits and Australians already go through a rollback? They didnt seem to quit the game in mass like some where suggest would be the behavior.

[maamold]

2 minutes ago, cutchemist42 said:

Didnt the Brits and Australians already go through a rollback? They didnt seem to quit the game in mass like some where suggest would be the behavior.

Good point. They went to the bigger American ball. And people didn't quit and throw their equipment away.

[mahonie]

23 minutes ago, maamold said:

Good point. They went to the bigger American ball. And people didn't quit and throw their equipment away.

I remember losing 25 yards on drives (bearing in mind I was still using persimmon) but found the American ball a lot easier to play with. Moving from 1.62” to 1.68” doesn’t seem like much but it felt like hitting a tennis ball compared to hitting a basketball.

 

Benefit of the bigger ball to the short game was massive...I adjusted after a few rounds and didn’t really notice much difference after a while.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

20 hours ago, mahonie said:

I remember losing 25 yards on drives (bearing in mind I was still using persimmon) but found the American ball a lot easier to play with. Moving from 1.62” to 1.68” doesn’t seem like much but it felt like hitting a tennis ball compared to hitting a basketball.

 

Benefit of the bigger ball to the short game was massive...I adjusted after a few rounds and didn’t really notice much difference after a while.

 

I think I took up golf after the larger ball had become mainstream, but I'd occasionally find or be given the old smaller ball, and had quite a few in my bag of practice balls. I can only echo what you said; I much preferred the bigger ball.

[OrangeGravy]

On 9/25/2020 at 9:55 PM, ThinkingPlus said:

And what non-existent tee boxes will the folks already playing as far forward as they can move to?

How is that even a problem? Every course that I've ever played, short of a desert target style course, has already (for junior tees) or has the ability to plop tee blocks down in the fairway. 

[maamold]

7 minutes ago, OrangeGravy said:

How is that even a problem? Every course that I've ever played, short of a desert target style course, has already (for junior tees) or has the ability to plop tee blocks down in the fairway. 

Exactly, it's not a problem. Those that make the argument that people can't move up any more are using a False Dilemma to win their argument. I pointed out earlier that most courses have tee's well within the recommended female golfers range for other golfers to move up to only the most difficult course don't, and that is how those courses were designed anyway. 

It's also super easy, barely and inconvenience, to add shorter tees as there is almost always land available to do so; because the land already exists as rough or fairway (Cliffside holes like some Hawaiian Par3's might be one exception to forward tee's). Most courses, even city owned, have already built "1st tee" tee's that are shorter than the forward tee's. Where finding tee's farther back is where course's often cannot go without some major tree cutting, or course rerouting, or buying more land. 

[ThinkingPlus]

7 hours ago, OrangeGravy said:

How is that even a problem? Every course that I've ever played, short of a desert target style course, has already (for junior tees) or has the ability to plop tee blocks down in the fairway. 

Lots of courses don't have spots to put new forward tee boxes.  They would have to find new spots and build new boxes.  Fortunately you won't need to worry.  The new tees will rarely be added and it won't affect you or anyone you care about.

[storm319]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Lots of courses don't have spots to put new forward tee boxes.  They would have to find new spots and build new boxes.  Fortunately you won't need to worry.  The new tees will rarely be added and it won't affect you or anyone you care about.

Exactly. So many pushing to take things away from others when it has zero impact on them.

[maamold]

On 10/17/2020 at 5:17 AM, ThinkingPlus said:

Lots of courses don't have spots to put new forward tee boxes.  They would have to find new spots and build new boxes.  Fortunately you won't need to worry.  The new tees will rarely be added and it won't affect you or anyone you care about.

People keep saying that but there is not a single course in my area that couldn't move forward on every hole that would need a closer box for the shortest hitters. And of course, I'll say this again - golfers dealt with the current tee boxes for years with shorter/slower equipment and it was not an issue. 

[tiderider]

never had good luck on a golf course ... all bad luck ... and i can't seem to do anything about it ... 😐

[kasting333]

On 10/10/2020 at 12:06 PM, maamold said:

Good point. They went to the bigger American ball. And people didn't quit and throw their equipment away.

I’m against a rollback but a bigger ball is the way to go. Makes it easier for the masses to make solid contact while accomplishing a rollback. 

[kasting333]

On 11/1/2020 at 1:34 PM, maamold said:

People keep saying that but there is not a single course in my area that couldn't move forward on every hole that would need a closer box for the shortest hitters. And of course, I'll say this again - golfers dealt with the current tee boxes for years with shorter/slower equipment and it was not an issue. 

How many years ago? Would the average player move up? Absolutely not. Makes the game harder and slower for the casual golfer.

[milesgiles]

Jack appears to believe Augusta have already decided to have a ball just for their tournament, maybe from next year..

 

edit, maybe not, but he thinks something is afoot

 

https://golf.com/news/8-masters-musings-interview-jack-nicklaus/

Edited November 12, 2020 by milesgiles

[davep043]

2 hours ago, milesgiles said:

Jack appears to believe Augusta have already decided to have a ball just for their tournament, maybe from next year..

 

edit, maybe not, but he thinks something is afoot

 

https://golf.com/news/8-masters-musings-interview-jack-nicklaus/

Jack is certainly more likely to have inside info from the USGA/R&A than anyone posting here.  On the other hand, Jack has promoted a ball roll-back for a long time now, so it could just be wishful thinking on his part.  The USGA/R&A has certainly said nothing new publicly since early this year, when they said they had no plans to roll back distance in a way that affects all golfers.

[chippa13]

It wouldn't surprise me if Augusta did something on their own. They are certainly full of themselves enough to fly solo.

[Shilgy]

32 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

It wouldn't surprise me if Augusta did something on their own. They are certainly full of themselves enough to fly solo.

Not likely according to Jack.

 

On whether Masters officials could have a ball just for Masters play:

“They could, and I think that Augusta thought about it and considered it for a while. But I think they felt like that would put them above the rules of the game of golf.