Old vs new vokeys

[roncee]

Was wondering what the differences between OG spin milled vokeys and throughout sm4-8 are. I have OG spin milled wedges that still spin a ton and wanted to know before deciding to break the bank on newer ones.

[setter02]

New/different grind options, that's about it.

[pinestreetgolf]

13 minutes ago, roncee said:

Was wondering what the differences between OG spin milled vokeys and throughout sm4-8 are. I have OG spin milled wedges that still spin a ton and wanted to know before deciding to break the bank on newer ones.

 

Almost nothing.  The only real thing that is different is the massive increase in options and choice in terms of bounces and grinds, which really do matter to a player's ability to get the ball up and down.  Those guys are geniuses at getting people to pay huge amounts of money to play old wedge designs.  One of the WedgeWorks ultra-hot wedges right now - the "low-bounce K" - is just an exact copy of the first ever spin milled 58-12 that you can get on eBay for peanuts.  They are identical, except for conforming grooves, and the "low-bounce K" is repackaged for $200 and has Adam Scott Tour Sauce (R).

 

That said, there are about fifteen Vokey wedges in the SM8 line compared to around six in the SM4 line.  If you know your game, how you swing around the greens, and how you get the ball up and down it is important that the variety is so hugely increased.

 

But if you compared apples to apples (like, for example, a SM4 48*-bent-to-50* and a SM8 50.12 F grind) they are absolutely identical.  The only thing that has improved is choice, but you have to understand how wedges work and know your own game to benefit from that choice.

 

A lot of people will come in here and say "NOTHING BRO OEM MARKETING DURRRR" but that isn't right.  The customization is massively improved.  But its a piece of cast metal on a stick.  That hasn't changed.

[cardoustie]

SM2 OG spin way more than newer stuff if you have newer heads ... this from BV himself

[Gohigh]

Having gamed every vokey since 1999, I can say that up until SM5, they all played very similar, which was a good thing since every generation, I had to spend very little time getting used to new ones.

 

SM6 and SM7 started to feel really dissimilar to previous generations, mostly due to CG placement changes. The CG changes helped with ball flight a bit but distance control a bit more difficult for me. It also started to feel bit more muted in feedback so ended up changing to Callaway wedges for last 4 or 5 years.

 

SM8 however started to feel like it was actually an improvement over any generation of Vokey wedges. Seems like flight is stronger with various shots, and spin is up for me compared to SM6 and SM7. Feedback is still much more muted than older Vokey wedges, but not in a bad way. Cant describe the feeling other than it just feels like there is more mass behind the shot.

 

I still take my SM2 wedges out during casual fun rounds, and it still performs as expected. I cant say Im backing the ball up any more than my SM8s, but I feel like the initial grab off the first bounce is bit more aggressive, which actually works against me most of the time...

 

 

 

[sbjinx]

I’ve played the SM6, 7 and now 8, and for me the SM8 is a big improvement over the last 2 generations. Feels better and I’m getting a much better ball flight. I also think visually the SM8 is better looking than the 7 or 6 but I know some disagree. 

[ChipNRun]

29 minutes ago, Gohigh said:

SM6 and SM7 started to feel really dissimilar to previous generations, mostly due to CG placement changes. The CG changes helped with ball flight a bit but distance control a bit more difficult for me.

 

SM6 featured prototypes generated by 3D computer printers (for quicker design analysis) and the progressive CoG related to loft of wedge.

 

 

[pinestreetgolf]

56 minutes ago, Gohigh said:

Having gamed every vokey since 1999, I can say that up until SM5, they all played very similar, which was a good thing since every generation, I had to spend very little time getting used to new ones.

 

SM6 and SM7 started to feel really dissimilar to previous generations, mostly due to CG placement changes. The CG changes helped with ball flight a bit but distance control a bit more difficult for me. It also started to feel bit more muted in feedback so ended up changing to Callaway wedges for last 4 or 5 years.

 

SM8 however started to feel like it was actually an improvement over any generation of Vokey wedges. Seems like flight is stronger with various shots, and spin is up for me compared to SM6 and SM7. Feedback is still much more muted than older Vokey wedges, but not in a bad way. Cant describe the feeling other than it just feels like there is more mass behind the shot.

 

I still take my SM2 wedges out during casual fun rounds, and it still performs as expected. I cant say Im backing the ball up any more than my SM8s, but I feel like the initial grab off the first bounce is bit more aggressive, which actually works against me most of the time...

 

 

 

 

Do you think you could tell the difference between an SM7 and a SM5 built to identical bounce and grind specs in a blind test?

 

They're cast wedges.  That would be incredibly, unbelievably impressive.

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

Almost nothing.  The only real thing that is different is the massive increase in options and choice in terms of bounces and grinds, which really do matter to a player's ability to get the ball up and down.  Those guys are geniuses at getting people to pay huge amounts of money to play old wedge designs.  One of the WedgeWorks ultra-hot wedges right now - the "low-bounce K" - is just an exact copy of the first ever spin milled 58-12 that you can get on eBay for peanuts.  They are identical, except for conforming grooves, and the "low-bounce K" is repackaged for $200 and has Adam Scott Tour Sauce (R).

 

That said, there are about fifteen Vokey wedges in the SM8 line compared to around six in the SM4 line.  If you know your game, how you swing around the greens, and how you get the ball up and down it is important that the variety is so hugely increased.

 

But if you compared apples to apples (like, for example, a SM4 48*-bent-to-50* and a SM8 50.12 F grind) they are absolutely identical.  The only thing that has improved is choice, but you have to understand how wedges work and know your own game to benefit from that choice.

 

A lot of people will come in here and say "NOTHING BRO OEM MARKETING DURRRR" but that isn't right.  The customization is massively improved.  But its a piece of cast metal on a stick.  That hasn't changed.

The Low Bounce K has 6* of bounce though, so how is it an exact copy of a wedge with 12?

Shapes have also change over the years, as has the progressive CG with the SM7 and the whole tungsten weighting CG story with the SM8. You can argue whether or not those things make a difference, but to say they are exactly the same is kind of silly. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Valtiel

[MattyO1984]

3 hours ago, Valtiel said:

The Low Bounce K has 6* of bounce though, so how is it an exact copy of a wedge with 12?

Shapes have also change over the years, as has the progressive CG with the SM7 and the whole tungsten weighting CG story with the SM8. You can argue whether or not those things make a difference, but to say they are exactly the same is kind of silly. 

 

I am not saying that you are wrong but I have something sticking in my head that says, how they measured bounce changed at some stage. They went from measuring bounce to effective bounce and then putting that on the heads. As an example, my old 260.12 had a really narrow sole and that reduced the effective loft to such an extent that I was able to get underneath the ball so much better than I was with the 260.06 which had less bounce but a massive sole.

[setter02]

2 minutes ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

I am not saying that you are wrong but I have something sticking in my head that says, how they measured bounce changed at some stage. They went from measuring bounce to effective bounce and then putting that on the heads. As an example, my old 260.12 had a really narrow sole and that reduced the effective loft to such an extent that I was able to get underneath the ball so much better than I was with the 260.06 which had less bounce but a massive sole.

 

Wasn't this one of the complaints against Edel wedges when talking bounce numbers.  That he could have these huge numbers when all the OEM's didn't put anything out past 14ish.

[pinestreetgolf]

5 hours ago, Valtiel said:

The Low Bounce K has 6* of bounce though, so how is it an exact copy of a wedge with 12?

Shapes have also change over the years, as has the progressive CG with the SM7 and the whole tungsten weighting CG story with the SM8. You can argue whether or not those things make a difference, but to say they are exactly the same is kind of silly. 

 

They're not identical, but you can't sell me anyone here could ever tell the difference they are so similar.

[pinestreetgolf]

1 hour ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

I am not saying that you are wrong but I have something sticking in my head that says, how they measured bounce changed at some stage. They went from measuring bounce to effective bounce and then putting that on the heads. As an example, my old 260.12 had a really narrow sole and that reduced the effective loft to such an extent that I was able to get underneath the ball so much better than I was with the 260.06 which had less bounce but a massive sole.

 

I didn't want to get into with him but this is exactly right.  Vokey made that switch between red saw and the SM4.  Some OEMs list literal bounce (a measurement of the club when sitting dead square), some list effective bounce (the bounce at impact with all the wedges' features taken into account, slightly open).  The wide sole on the K makes it interact with the ground as if it has much higher bounce, but its easier to open up than a regular K.  However, the 58-D has a trailing bounce, meaning the bounce is different when open and when square.  So the wedges play the same.  This is why the PM Grind is listed as 10* of bounce, even though a very simple visual inspection shows it has almost none.  The unique grind on the bottom holds the sole off from digging, and it plays like it has 10* of bounce.

[pinestreetgolf]

9 hours ago, sbjinx said:

I’ve played the SM6, 7 and now 8, and for me the SM8 is a big improvement over the last 2 generations. Feels better and I’m getting a much better ball flight. I also think visually the SM8 is better looking than the 7 or 6 but I know some disagree. 

 

There are weird things in wedges some people just like.  I don't get it but as you get closer to the green stuff gets weird in terms of optimal results.  There might be something about the 8 that you really like, and that's great.  However, if I lined up 100 testers of decent golfers and took all the badging off I don't think a single one could pick the SM8 out of a lineup with the 7s and the 6s.  Maybe some could based on head shape, but even then.

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

I am not saying that you are wrong but I have something sticking in my head that says, how they measured bounce changed at some stage. They went from measuring bounce to effective bounce and then putting that on the heads. As an example, my old 260.12 had a really narrow sole and that reduced the effective loft to such an extent that I was able to get underneath the ball so much better than I was with the 260.06 which had less bounce but a massive sole.

That makes sense, I have one of those old Vokey 456.14's that has the tiny little sole on it, so I understand the concept. But....
 

1 hour ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

I didn't want to get into with him but this is exactly right.  Vokey made that switch between red saw and the SM4.  Some OEMs list literal bounce (a measurement of the club when sitting dead square), some list effective bounce (the bounce at impact with all the wedges' features taken into account, slightly open).  The wide sole on the K makes it interact with the ground as if it has much higher bounce, but its easier to open up than a regular K.  However, the 58-D has a trailing bounce, meaning the bounce is different when open and when square.  So the wedges play the same.  This is why the PM Grind is listed as 10* of bounce, even though a very simple visual inspection shows it has almost none.  The unique grind on the bottom holds the sole off from digging, and it plays like it has 10* of bounce.

....wouldn't this just support the differences I mentioned? If the original Vokey 258-12 had 12* of actual measured bounce, and we agree that the wider sole makes the effective bounce functionally higher, then the fact that the newer low bounce K is listed as 6* effective bounce would actually mean that it is even MORE of a different sole, right? Because in order for that big sole to only have 6* of effective bounce, then measured bounce would have to extremely small. 

And to be clear, i'm not some Vokey homer here. All of mine are cheap eBay finds and I have never paid more than $50 for one, so I don't have any kind of financial bias to be arguing with here. 

[cardia10]

I mean, they are all cast in China for around $4-5 each. Does it matter? You are paying for the name alone. Add to the fact, if you don't have a pretty good understanding of static and dynamic bounce angles, there is a pretty slim chance you will buy the right one for your game. For what you spend on them, I'd hit the guys up at National Custom and get something that fits your game instead of something off the rack.

[Rory4Pres]

I went through about 21 wedges through trial and error to find the loft/bounce setup I preferred.  As painful (and awesome) as that was, I haven't switched wedges since.  Still using those same older vokeys for the past several years.  Still get decent spin from them.  I actually prefer when the ball lands and stops versus lands and spins back 15 feet.  Leaves me a lot closer to the hole that way.  Shoot, 15% of the time I'm playing a lower ball flight trying to get the ball to shoot forward 5 or 10' after landing.  

 

I have a close relationship with my vokeys.  Definitely the strongest part of my game.

[Tiptx1122]

I've played Cleveland wedges, PING, Callaway, and mostly Vokey wedges. Went from the SM7's to the PING Glide 3.0 as PING's were nice but I let them go for the new SM8 black to match my PING G710. Very forgiving and good spin. Has a soft feel to them as I feel there is an improvement over the Glides 3.0 and SM7's but very little. Vokey's make the best wedges IMHO

[cgasucks]

A wedge is as only as good as the player that is using it.  Wedge technology has stagnated for decades.  You can only do so much to a hunk of metal on a stick into so many shapes.

[Torisboy153]

I am a bit confused. I played the vokey 58-08 until about 2002. I purchase a few different ones but always were 58-08. I quit golf in 03 until 2016 and came in and bought a 58 /8 m grind. 
I open up all my shots when using the club (never square to target) and can’t hit this for anything. Typically bounce into and skull or dig too much trying to prevent a skull. 
I went to a titleist fitting and did a blind test using the 3 clubs provided and hit square shots. Once complete on that I went to the range and played the same 3 clubs and in both test, the fitter said the m grind was perfect and in fact it did perform well. My thought is turf firmness varied between the two courses with the test course at the fitting bing softer. 
I played a lot of rounds in 01/02/03 and rarely missed by skulling the shot or digging. My question is what is the difference in or what is most like the sole on the old(pre 2000)

vokey bv or sm 58-08?

[mootrail]

On 1/24/2021 at 8:22 AM, Torisboy153 said:

what is the difference in or what is most like the sole on the old(pre 2000)

vokey bv or sm 58-08?

 

I'm with you. The 200 Series were the best (588s too), no messing around with fancy sole grinds and high bounce.  You pick a loft and bounce and you got one grind to choose from.  Easy.

 

I was put into SM5 M Grinds and...  meh.  Dumped the Vokeys for MDs and PM Grinds and never looked back.

 

Tons of good wedges out there besides Vokey.  Giv'em a try.

Edited January 25, 2021 by mootrail

[RogerinNewZealand]

Torisboy try 50F and 54S grinds also 58S these dont skull...we must have similar swing etc M and K dont work for me.Yes all the old 200s and red sm2 worked for me too! Cleveland .. two dot bounce,try them also,cheers.

[AC168]

I've done a wedge fitting with Bob.  Grind is biggest factor.  Once you have that, then other adjustments are smaller.