Jump to content

Old vs new vokeys


Recommended Posts

Was wondering what the differences between OG spin milled vokeys and throughout sm4-8 are. I have OG spin milled wedges that still spin a ton and wanted to know before deciding to break the bank on newer ones.

Taylormade M3 9.5 W/ Fujikura Atmos TS 6X 

TaylorMade M3 17 HL W/ Fujikura Atmos TS Black 7X

Titleist 816 T-MB 3i W/ KBS C-Taper X

Titleist ZM Blades 4-PW W/ S300

Titleist Vokey SM Black Nickel 54(bent52)/58

Scotty Cameron Studio Select Newport #2 33”

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 18
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Almost nothing.  The only real thing that is different is the massive increase in options and choice in terms of bounces and grinds, which really do matter to a player's ability to get the ball up and

New/different grind options, that's about it.

I didn't want to get into with him but this is exactly right.  Vokey made that switch between red saw and the SM4.  Some OEMs list literal bounce (a measurement of the club when sitting dead square),

Posted Images

SM2 OG spin way more than newer stuff if you have newer heads ... this from BV himself

  • Like 1


Ping G400 Max 10.5* Fubuki K 60x

Ping G400 5w 16.5* Blueboard 73x Ping G400 7w 19.5* Diamana B 80s

Callaway Apex 4h 23* Fubuki 82x Callaway Apex 5h 26* Mitsu KK 90s

Mizuno 919T 6 - PW UST Mamiya Recoil Prototype 95 f4
Vokey SM2 50*, SM2 TVD 56*M & 59*M, 64* Recoil Proto 95 f4

Piretti Matera Elite
 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Having gamed every vokey since 1999, I can say that up until SM5, they all played very similar, which was a good thing since every generation, I had to spend very little time getting used to new ones.

 

SM6 and SM7 started to feel really dissimilar to previous generations, mostly due to CG placement changes. The CG changes helped with ball flight a bit but distance control a bit more difficult for me. It also started to feel bit more muted in feedback so ended up changing to Callaway wedges for last 4 or 5 years.

 

SM8 however started to feel like it was actually an improvement over any generation of Vokey wedges. Seems like flight is stronger with various shots, and spin is up for me compared to SM6 and SM7. Feedback is still much more muted than older Vokey wedges, but not in a bad way. Cant describe the feeling other than it just feels like there is more mass behind the shot.

 

I still take my SM2 wedges out during casual fun rounds, and it still performs as expected. I cant say Im backing the ball up any more than my SM8s, but I feel like the initial grab off the first bounce is bit more aggressive, which actually works against me most of the time...

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I’ve played the SM6, 7 and now 8, and for me the SM8 is a big improvement over the last 2 generations. Feels better and I’m getting a much better ball flight. I also think visually the SM8 is better looking than the 7 or 6 but I know some disagree. 

Callaway Epic Flash TD - Graphite Design VR Callaway Epic SZ 15* Callaway Apex 20* Bridgestone J15cb - 4-PW Vokey SM7 - 52* & 58* Spider X

Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Gohigh said:

SM6 and SM7 started to feel really dissimilar to previous generations, mostly due to CG placement changes. The CG changes helped with ball flight a bit but distance control a bit more difficult for me.

 

SM6 featured prototypes generated by 3D computer printers (for quicker design analysis) and the progressive CoG related to loft of wedge.

 

image.png.6becc9e20f14a854de01cf6370e8e766.png

 

What's In The Bag (Summary as of October 2020)

 

Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5°, weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Tour Edge CB Pro Tungsten 4i-9i

Wedges:  Calla MD3: 48°, 54°... MD4: 58° ||  Putter: Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced)

Ball: Calla SuperHot (Orange preferred)  ||  Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag

For details see:  Pending (need protocol to embed file list).

Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, Gohigh said:

Having gamed every vokey since 1999, I can say that up until SM5, they all played very similar, which was a good thing since every generation, I had to spend very little time getting used to new ones.

 

SM6 and SM7 started to feel really dissimilar to previous generations, mostly due to CG placement changes. The CG changes helped with ball flight a bit but distance control a bit more difficult for me. It also started to feel bit more muted in feedback so ended up changing to Callaway wedges for last 4 or 5 years.

 

SM8 however started to feel like it was actually an improvement over any generation of Vokey wedges. Seems like flight is stronger with various shots, and spin is up for me compared to SM6 and SM7. Feedback is still much more muted than older Vokey wedges, but not in a bad way. Cant describe the feeling other than it just feels like there is more mass behind the shot.

 

I still take my SM2 wedges out during casual fun rounds, and it still performs as expected. I cant say Im backing the ball up any more than my SM8s, but I feel like the initial grab off the first bounce is bit more aggressive, which actually works against me most of the time...

 

 

 

 

Do you think you could tell the difference between an SM7 and a SM5 built to identical bounce and grind specs in a blind test?

 

They're cast wedges.  That would be incredibly, unbelievably impressive.

Ping G30 Driver, 3 Wood, 3-5 hybrids TFC-419 Stock Stiff

Bridgestone j40 DPC 5-PW Tour Issue x100

Titleist sm4 50/12 sm5 56/10-S Tour Issue s400

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

Almost nothing.  The only real thing that is different is the massive increase in options and choice in terms of bounces and grinds, which really do matter to a player's ability to get the ball up and down.  Those guys are geniuses at getting people to pay huge amounts of money to play old wedge designs.  One of the WedgeWorks ultra-hot wedges right now - the "low-bounce K" - is just an exact copy of the first ever spin milled 58-12 that you can get on eBay for peanuts.  They are identical, except for conforming grooves, and the "low-bounce K" is repackaged for $200 and has Adam Scott Tour Sauce (R).

 

That said, there are about fifteen Vokey wedges in the SM8 line compared to around six in the SM4 line.  If you know your game, how you swing around the greens, and how you get the ball up and down it is important that the variety is so hugely increased.

 

But if you compared apples to apples (like, for example, a SM4 48*-bent-to-50* and a SM8 50.12 F grind) they are absolutely identical.  The only thing that has improved is choice, but you have to understand how wedges work and know your own game to benefit from that choice.

 

A lot of people will come in here and say "NOTHING BRO OEM MARKETING DURRRR" but that isn't right.  The customization is massively improved.  But its a piece of cast metal on a stick.  That hasn't changed.


The Low Bounce K has 6* of bounce though, so how is it an exact copy of a wedge with 12?

Shapes have also change over the years, as has the progressive CG with the SM7 and the whole tungsten weighting CG story with the SM8. You can argue whether or not those things make a difference, but to say they are exactly the same is kind of silly. 

Edited by Valtiel
  • Thanks 1

Mizuno ST190 9.5* Diamana X'17 70XX || Taylormade M1 430 8.5* Tensei Pro Orange V2 70TX
Titleist 915FD 14.25* Kuro Kage 80XTS || Taylormade SIM Ti 16* Kuro Kage 80XTS 
Titleist 915FD 17.25* Kuro Kage 90XTS || Taylormade GAPR Lo 3 20* Kuro Kage 100XTS Hybrid
Callaway X-Forged UT 20* Kuro Kage XT 100TX Hybrid || Taylormade RSI UDI 20* Kuro Kage 100XTS Hybrid
Callaway X-Forged UT 23* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 DPC 5i-7i 27*- 35* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 CB 8i-PW 39*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey Mild Raw 8620 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Scotty Cameron Newport Tour Red Dot || Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Pro Platinum

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Valtiel said:


The Low Bounce K has 6* of bounce though, so how is it an exact copy of a wedge with 12?

Shapes have also change over the years, as has the progressive CG with the SM7 and the whole tungsten weighting CG story with the SM8. You can argue whether or not those things make a difference, but to say they are exactly the same is kind of silly. 

 

I am not saying that you are wrong but I have something sticking in my head that says, how they measured bounce changed at some stage. They went from measuring bounce to effective bounce and then putting that on the heads. As an example, my old 260.12 had a really narrow sole and that reduced the effective loft to such an extent that I was able to get underneath the ball so much better than I was with the 260.06 which had less bounce but a massive sole.

Titleist TS3 8.5 Stiff Diamana D+
Titleist 915Fd 15 Stiff Rogue Black 
Titleist 915Hd 17.5 Stiff Diamana S+
Titleist T100 4-PW Stiff Project X LZ
Titleist Vokey SM6 50.08 & 54.10
Titlesist Vokey SM7 60.04
Scotty Cameron Futura 5S
ProV1x 2019

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

I am not saying that you are wrong but I have something sticking in my head that says, how they measured bounce changed at some stage. They went from measuring bounce to effective bounce and then putting that on the heads. As an example, my old 260.12 had a really narrow sole and that reduced the effective loft to such an extent that I was able to get underneath the ball so much better than I was with the 260.06 which had less bounce but a massive sole.

 

Wasn't this one of the complaints against Edel wedges when talking bounce numbers.  That he could have these huge numbers when all the OEM's didn't put anything out past 14ish.

SM 3.5 Bag:

G410 Plus 9* w/ Tensei Orange Pro 6X

TM Sim Ti 14* w/ Kai'Li 80X

Titleist TS3 19* w/ Evenflow EF T1100 6.0

TBD

TBD

Piretti Potenza II 365g 34"

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Valtiel said:


The Low Bounce K has 6* of bounce though, so how is it an exact copy of a wedge with 12?

Shapes have also change over the years, as has the progressive CG with the SM7 and the whole tungsten weighting CG story with the SM8. You can argue whether or not those things make a difference, but to say they are exactly the same is kind of silly. 

 

They're not identical, but you can't sell me anyone here could ever tell the difference they are so similar.

Ping G30 Driver, 3 Wood, 3-5 hybrids TFC-419 Stock Stiff

Bridgestone j40 DPC 5-PW Tour Issue x100

Titleist sm4 50/12 sm5 56/10-S Tour Issue s400

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

I am not saying that you are wrong but I have something sticking in my head that says, how they measured bounce changed at some stage. They went from measuring bounce to effective bounce and then putting that on the heads. As an example, my old 260.12 had a really narrow sole and that reduced the effective loft to such an extent that I was able to get underneath the ball so much better than I was with the 260.06 which had less bounce but a massive sole.

 

I didn't want to get into with him but this is exactly right.  Vokey made that switch between red saw and the SM4.  Some OEMs list literal bounce (a measurement of the club when sitting dead square), some list effective bounce (the bounce at impact with all the wedges' features taken into account, slightly open).  The wide sole on the K makes it interact with the ground as if it has much higher bounce, but its easier to open up than a regular K.  However, the 58-D has a trailing bounce, meaning the bounce is different when open and when square.  So the wedges play the same.  This is why the PM Grind is listed as 10* of bounce, even though a very simple visual inspection shows it has almost none.  The unique grind on the bottom holds the sole off from digging, and it plays like it has 10* of bounce.

  • Like 3

Ping G30 Driver, 3 Wood, 3-5 hybrids TFC-419 Stock Stiff

Bridgestone j40 DPC 5-PW Tour Issue x100

Titleist sm4 50/12 sm5 56/10-S Tour Issue s400

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, sbjinx said:

I’ve played the SM6, 7 and now 8, and for me the SM8 is a big improvement over the last 2 generations. Feels better and I’m getting a much better ball flight. I also think visually the SM8 is better looking than the 7 or 6 but I know some disagree. 

 

There are weird things in wedges some people just like.  I don't get it but as you get closer to the green stuff gets weird in terms of optimal results.  There might be something about the 8 that you really like, and that's great.  However, if I lined up 100 testers of decent golfers and took all the badging off I don't think a single one could pick the SM8 out of a lineup with the 7s and the 6s.  Maybe some could based on head shape, but even then.

  • Like 1

Ping G30 Driver, 3 Wood, 3-5 hybrids TFC-419 Stock Stiff

Bridgestone j40 DPC 5-PW Tour Issue x100

Titleist sm4 50/12 sm5 56/10-S Tour Issue s400

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

I am not saying that you are wrong but I have something sticking in my head that says, how they measured bounce changed at some stage. They went from measuring bounce to effective bounce and then putting that on the heads. As an example, my old 260.12 had a really narrow sole and that reduced the effective loft to such an extent that I was able to get underneath the ball so much better than I was with the 260.06 which had less bounce but a massive sole.


That makes sense, I have one of those old Vokey 456.14's that has the tiny little sole on it, so I understand the concept. But....
 

1 hour ago, pinestreetgolf said:

 

I didn't want to get into with him but this is exactly right.  Vokey made that switch between red saw and the SM4.  Some OEMs list literal bounce (a measurement of the club when sitting dead square), some list effective bounce (the bounce at impact with all the wedges' features taken into account, slightly open).  The wide sole on the K makes it interact with the ground as if it has much higher bounce, but its easier to open up than a regular K.  However, the 58-D has a trailing bounce, meaning the bounce is different when open and when square.  So the wedges play the same.  This is why the PM Grind is listed as 10* of bounce, even though a very simple visual inspection shows it has almost none.  The unique grind on the bottom holds the sole off from digging, and it plays like it has 10* of bounce.


....wouldn't this just support the differences I mentioned? If the original Vokey 258-12 had 12* of actual measured bounce, and we agree that the wider sole makes the effective bounce functionally higher, then the fact that the newer low bounce K is listed as 6* effective bounce would actually mean that it is even MORE of a different sole, right? Because in order for that big sole to only have 6* of effective bounce, then measured bounce would have to extremely small. 

And to be clear, i'm not some Vokey homer here. All of mine are cheap eBay finds and I have never paid more than $50 for one, so I don't have any kind of financial bias to be arguing with here. 

Mizuno ST190 9.5* Diamana X'17 70XX || Taylormade M1 430 8.5* Tensei Pro Orange V2 70TX
Titleist 915FD 14.25* Kuro Kage 80XTS || Taylormade SIM Ti 16* Kuro Kage 80XTS 
Titleist 915FD 17.25* Kuro Kage 90XTS || Taylormade GAPR Lo 3 20* Kuro Kage 100XTS Hybrid
Callaway X-Forged UT 20* Kuro Kage XT 100TX Hybrid || Taylormade RSI UDI 20* Kuro Kage 100XTS Hybrid
Callaway X-Forged UT 23* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 DPC 5i-7i 27*- 35* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Bridgestone J40 CB 8i-PW 39*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey Mild Raw 8620 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Vokey SM6 58* Oil Can Low Bounce K-Grind Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Scotty Cameron Newport Tour Red Dot || Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Pro Platinum

Link to post
Share on other sites

I mean, they are all cast in China for around $4-5 each. Does it matter? You are paying for the name alone. Add to the fact, if you don't have a pretty good understanding of static and dynamic bounce angles, there is a pretty slim chance you will buy the right one for your game. For what you spend on them, I'd hit the guys up at National Custom and get something that fits your game instead of something off the rack.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I went through about 21 wedges through trial and error to find the loft/bounce setup I preferred.  As painful (and awesome) as that was, I haven't switched wedges since.  Still using those same older vokeys for the past several years.  Still get decent spin from them.  I actually prefer when the ball lands and stops versus lands and spins back 15 feet.  Leaves me a lot closer to the hole that way.  Shoot, 15% of the time I'm playing a lower ball flight trying to get the ball to shoot forward 5 or 10' after landing.  

 

I have a close relationship with my vokeys.  Definitely the strongest part of my game.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've played Cleveland wedges, PING, Callaway, and mostly Vokey wedges. Went from the SM7's to the PING Glide 3.0 as PING's were nice but I let them go for the new SM8 black to match my PING G710. Very forgiving and good spin. Has a soft feel to them as I feel there is an improvement over the Glides 3.0 and SM7's but very little. Vokey's make the best wedges IMHO

Link to post
Share on other sites

A wedge is as only as good as the player that is using it.  Wedge technology has stagnated for decades.  You can only do so much to a hunk of metal on a stick into so many shapes.

10.5 deg Titleist 905R with stock UST Proforce V2 Shaft
1999 Ben Hogan Apex Blades (3-PW) with stock Apex 4 Steel Shafts
Taylormade V-Steel 5W & 3W with Grafalloy Prolaunch Red shafts
Taylormade ATV wedges in 54 and 58 degrees with stock steel shafts
Rife Island Series Aruba Blade Putter

 

"Loft for loft, length for length, and shaft for shaft, the ball will go the same distance when hit on the sweet spot regardless how old the iron."

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...