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so what if a Tour player shoots 57?


Fairway14

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For more than 20 years now there has been discussion about courses becoming obsolete, rolling back the ball, driver COR , bifurcation of the Rules etc...

But what does it matter if Tour players hit tee shots 400 yards and, or, shoot 58, 57, 56, 55 etc... ? Score is just a number.

I respect the game, its traditions, its iconic historic courses etc... but also believe that it's ok if Tour players drive par 4 greens, hit wedges into par 5 holes, or shoot a winning score of 45 under par. Do you agree?  Disagree?

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Disagree. It was fun and entertaining when Daly or Woods could crank a driver and drive a par 4 or knock it on a par 5 in two. That happening is now so common that there is no excitement or intrigue about it anymore. At a professional level it is a game of hit the ball hard and then hit it again. The skill the players have to do that shouldn’t be underestimated but by the same token it’s nothing compared to the skill of the Pro’s of prior generations who had to actually golf the ball as opposed to just hit it hard.

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4 minutes ago, MattyO1984 said:

Disagree. It was fun and entertaining when Daly or Woods could crank a driver and drive a par 4 or knock it on a par 5 in two. That happening is now so common that there is no excitement or intrigue about it anymore. At a professional level it is a game of hit the ball hard and then hit it again. The skill the players have to do that shouldn’t be underestimated but by the same token it’s nothing compared to the skill of the Pro’s of prior generations who had to actually golf the ball as opposed to just hit it hard.

 

Yes, I agree that 50 years ago it took significantly more swing technique skill than it does today to play good golf shots. 

And I agree it was more interesting and impressive to watch Tour pros strike shots with wooden heads, steel shafts, balata balls etc...than today's game. 

But, today's Tour game is not a bad thing, it's just different from what it once was.

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Just now, Fairway14 said:

 

Yes, I agree that 50 years ago it took significantly more swing technique skill than it does today to play good golf shots. 

And I agree it was more interesting and impressive to watch Tour pros strike shots with wooden heads, steel shafts, balata balls etc...than today's game. 

But, today's Tour game is not a bad thing, it's just different from what it once was.

 

Agreed that it is different and it may just be me but whereas once I would watch every single second of golf on TV, these days, I am typically more inclined to turn off and just check the scores and I wonder if that is in part because watching has becoming less interesting. 

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5 minutes ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

Agreed that it is different and it may just be me but whereas once I would watch every single second of golf on TV, these days, I am typically more inclined to turn off and just check the scores and I wonder if that is in part because watching has becoming less interesting. 

 

Baseball, football, and basketball are different from what they once were as well, not so much from the equipment technology evolution as is the case with golf, but at least from a strategy, scoring perspective. What are your thoughts about watching those sports game now as compared to former years ?

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2 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Baseball, football, and basketball are different from what they once were as well, not so much from the equipment technology evolution as is the case with golf, but at least from a strategy, scoring perspective. What are your thoughts about watching those sports game now as compared to former years ?

 

British here so my viewing of baseball, American football and basketball is non-existent except for the little snippets that are shown on Sky Sports News as such, I don’t know anything about the scoring or strategy of 2020 versus 1990. That said, athletes will always improve, the next generation always seem to push the bounds of what is possible. Improving athletic ability is brilliant and should be lauded, it’s just with golf that the improvement in athletic ability is being assisted immeasurably by the actual equipment. Would they still hit it far with less advanced equipment, sure, would it be with the same sense of wreckless abandon, no.

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32 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Baseball, football, and basketball are different from what they once were as well, not so much from the equipment technology evolution as is the case with golf, but at least from a strategy, scoring perspective. What are your thoughts about watching those sports game now as compared to former years ?

Well basketball is unwatchable as defense has disappeared and players either want to shoot a 3 or end up on the free throw line, there is no playmaking. Football has been bastardized by so many rules and adjustments that only one or two games per week are compelling. Baseball has fallen far and hard....

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2 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

For more than 20 years now there has been discussion about courses becoming obsolete, rolling back the ball, driver COR , bifurcation of the Rules etc...

But what does it matter if Tour players hit tee shots 400 yards and, or, shoot 58, 57, 56, 55 etc... ? Score is just a number.

I respect the game, its traditions, its iconic historic courses etc... but also believe that it's ok if Tour players drive par 4 greens, hit wedges into par 5 holes, or shoot a winning score of 45 under par. Do you agree?  Disagree?

Is that you, Titleist99?

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 Go back to pool caddies and no greens books

 

   Golf has become too much of a team sport at current level

 

     Fine-you have a coach-- but caddy doing damn near everything but hitting ball, trainer , chef, psychologist etc

   coach works with you at home- caddy gives yardage and basic green reading

      That will also speed up game

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The game should be harder, not easier.  When a game gets easier, the pool of players that can win increases.  When a game becomes harder, only the very best can win.  golf is getting to the point that there are no heroes, because the pool of players that can win is too large.

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I think that is all comes down to the payout.  How much will the average tour pro make compared with other sports.  If golf is paying out big then you will get more people interested in it, and because more people are interested you get more talent and more people with a drive who want to be the best.  It is those people that take the game to new levels.  

 

Again, I think it is about the money.  I think what some are after is the old days when pros had to grind out a living.  But today they can never win on tour and still make plenty of money.  Because of this the talent pool will always be full.  

 

Oh, and personally, they are pros...  They are supposed to be the best, they should destroy golf courses.  

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3 hours ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

Agreed that it is different and it may just be me but whereas once I would watch every single second of golf on TV, these days, I am typically more inclined to turn off and just check the scores and I wonder if that is in part because watching has becoming less interesting. 

Couldn't agree more.  If I'm making a effort to tune in now, its usually for the Champions tour.  I guess I done got old. 

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3 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Baseball, football, and basketball are different from what they once were as well, not so much from the equipment technology evolution as is the case with golf, but at least from a strategy, scoring perspective. What are your thoughts about watching those sports game now as compared to former years ?

You really can't compare team sports with moving players to an individual sport with a stationary object. But for discussion sake we'll continue. Baseball is being played just like it has been played. A ball, a bat, guy throws a ball the guy with the bat tries to hit it and then the umps make the wrong call and throw the batter/pittched out of the game because they did not agree with the call or both benches clear and run out to push and shove each other.........nothing changed. Now basketball and football have changed only in regards to the rules that have been changed. Basketball has now become a full contact sport and football has become lets not get the quarterback injured. Now granted, football indeed needed some changes to protect from needless or in some cases deliberate injuries, but they may have just gone a little over the top. Now golf, aside from all the equipment evolutions, it's still a guy with a crooked stick hitting a ball that's not moving and trying to get it into a hole in the ground some distance from where he's starting from.    

 

Now to answer the original question of shooting a 57.......I've shot a 57 numerous times, stoped at the turn and shot another 57 on the back, so I've got that going for me............

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6 minutes ago, disco111 said:

You really can't compare team sports with moving players to an individual sport with a stationary object. But for discussion sake we'll continue. Baseball is being played just like it has been played. A ball, a bat, guy throws a ball the guy with the bat tries to hit it and then the umps make the wrong call and throw the batter/pittched out of the game because they did not agree with the call or both benches clear and run out to push and shove each other.........nothing changed. Now basketball and football have changed only in regards to the rules that have been changed. Basketball has now become a full contact sport and football has become lets not get the quarterback injured. Now granted, football indeed needed some changes to protect from needless or in some cases deliberate injuries, but they may have just gone a little over the top. Now golf, aside from all the equipment evolutions, it's still a guy with a crooked stick hitting a ball that's not moving and trying to get it into a hole in the ground some distance from where he's starting from.    

 

Now to answer the original question of shooting a 57.......I've shot a 57 numerous times, stoped at the turn and shot another 57 on the back, so I've got that going for me............

Basketball was more a full contact sport back in the 90's when the Piston's were treating Michael Jordan like their own personal tackling dummy.  I miss that era of the NBA.  Hand checking, monster low post play, and lock-down defense.  Big boy ball.  

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I doubt that will ever happen where equipment will be the factor on why players are driving the ball that far enough to get to 400 yards. Course design and tournament setup will not let that happen. You can see with the guys and gals on the Long distance driving that there is no way to build a game around it. With that being said, there are always outliers out there that will be capable of driving the ball a long distance. With that being said, 57 is possible but not probable. All the other scores below that, wont happen. Typically everything would have to fall into place to be able to do that and course super intendents are probably not found of being know as the course where a player shoots 57 let alone 56, 55 and 54. To say it is impossible is not a response either. For me, if it happens, kudos to the player who does. Like you, I am open to the evolution of the player but not golf itself. When Callaway came out with the Big Bertha then the Great Big Bertha with 290 CC of titanium, everybody was going crazy about the size. Now, the 3 wood heads that are out there, can cover the driver sizes of days past. Even with all the talents that the greats have now, none scratch the 56 and the 59 club is growing but not at a fast rate either. I guess we just have to wait and see. Im still waiting to have my first hole in one. I shot under par a fist full of times. Things happen even to us amateurs. On the Pro circuit, these guys are so good, you never know.

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I agree...Golf is one of the only sports where there is no human defense. So theoretically a guy could come along who just destroys courses and there's little that can be done about it. 

 

I don't get the obsession with preserving things. A guy like Kevin Durant would have been an alien in the 60's, A 7-footer who shoots 3's and handles like a guard. Things evolve. it doesn't make me upset that i'm seeing dunks instead of layups, or big guys dribbling the ball instead of posting up

 

What are we going to do when some Jamie Sadlowski type actually keeps it on the planet and has a competent short game? Design 9000yd courses? Because that WILL happen at some point. And 9000yd courses FWIW will only make it easier for them

 

 

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4 hours ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

Agreed that it is different and it may just be me but whereas once I would watch every single second of golf on TV, these days, I am typically more inclined to turn off and just check the scores and I wonder if that is in part because watching has becoming less interesting. 

 

Same here.  Part of it is probably just due to not having as much extra time to just sit and watch a tournament, but the other part is that it's gotten too monotonous.

 

For example, take a par 4 with a back right hole location, bunker front right, with most players about a 6-iron from the hole (back in the day).  You couldn't fly it back there and hold the green, so the better putters might take a 6 or 7 iron to the middle and try to make a longer putt, or the better iron players might try to fade in a 5-iron to get it closer to the hole.  Either way, there was more strategy involved, and there was more of a "Wow!" factor when a guy pulled off the long putt or the great iron shot that faded in and rolled to the back portion of the green.

 

Today, that same hole has everyone in the tournament hitting a 9-iron or less into the green.  They're all able to stick it on that back corner of the green (even from the rough), half make birdie, half don't, and then it's on to the next hole to do the exact same thing.  Par 5's and par 3's still have some juice, just not as much as they used to.

 

They've already converted some of the par 5's to par 4's at most tournaments in an effort to "lengthen" the course, but the only way I see more variety put back into the professional game is to truly lengthen the courses out to 9000+ yards, as someone above already mentioned.

 

 

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This is happening in disc golf as well, guys shoot -18 in tournaments once in a while, consistently shoot -10 to -15 per round, sometimes even in big tournaments, it becomes a bit of a joke.  Look at the top scores from this 3-round event (https://www.udisclive.com/live/waco2019:     -43, -40, -35

 

Even disc golf pros talk about how it's too easy to putt on their tour and ideas have been floated around on how to toughen courses, make putting more difficult etc.  Like ball golf, it's contentious with lots of people against the idea.  Same thing in the NBA with 3-pointers etc.  Not sure ball golf gets to that level of problem, but at some point the scores start becoming goofy.

 

(Not to directly compare ball and disc golf because they're miles apart, but it's a similar thing where too low of scores to par seems to cheapen things for whatever reason. I personally don't like watching guys shoot 10 under consistently, I don't know why, but at the same time I don't like the idea of nerfing balls or making goofy course layouts to stop guys like BC.)

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I'm not sure how to change it, but it would be nice if a par 5 was actually a par 5, not a guaranteed birdie.

Hitting driver (or sometimes 3-wood) and then a 6, 7, or 8-iron into a par 5 is (pardon me) par for the course these days.

I know, it's the same for everyone...but getting home in two used to be a big deal.

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if a player shoots 57, cue the music...

 

 

13 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

For more than 20 years now there has been discussion about courses becoming obsolete, rolling back the ball, driver COR , bifurcation of the Rules etc...

But what does it matter if Tour players hit tee shots 400 yards and, or, shoot 58, 57, 56, 55 etc... ? Score is just a number.

I respect the game, its traditions, its iconic historic courses etc... but also believe that it's ok if Tour players drive par 4 greens, hit wedges into par 5 holes, or shoot a winning score of 45 under par. Do you agree?  Disagree?

 

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2 hours ago, orbless said:

They should make the short driveable par 4's into par 3's for the pros, that would be fun. 315 yard par 3.

 

For Tour play converting short par 4 holes into par 3's is an option, and making a par 5 into a par 4 has already been done for most US Open tournament courses.

If "shooting too far under par" is something tournament organizers don't like, then making the courses a par 67 or par 68 is a viable solution.

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13 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

For more than 20 years now there has been discussion about courses becoming obsolete, rolling back the ball, driver COR , bifurcation of the Rules etc...

But what does it matter if Tour players hit tee shots 400 yards and, or, shoot 58, 57, 56, 55 etc... ? Score is just a number.

I respect the game, its traditions, its iconic historic courses etc... but also believe that it's ok if Tour players drive par 4 greens, hit wedges into par 5 holes, or shoot a winning score of 45 under par. Do you agree?  Disagree?

 

What happened to golf after Jim Furyk shot his 58? Nothing. There's the answer.

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1 hour ago, grm24 said:

 

What happened to golf after Jim Furyk shot his 58? Nothing. There's the answer.

In my opinion, it is all relative. If Furyk shot his 58 at Winged Foot in the US Open, its huge. That is why we are still talking about Johnny Miller's 63 at Oakmont. Al Geiberger's 59 is landmark because it was the first, much like Roger Bannister breaking the 4-minute mile. You also have guys like Stuart Appleby, Paul Goydos and Justin Thomas who broke 60 in tournament play, but aren't talked about as much. I remember David Duval's 59 because at the time he was one of the top players in the world. That is another factor, in my opinion. You have the strength of the course, and the strength of the player. Ironic that both Nicklaus and Tiger never shot below 60 in tournament play, and they did alright...

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