What's coming next from the USGA and R&A...

[mvhoffman]

Last time there was an unconventional winner of majors (Keegan and A. Scott) using the belly/long putters, the golf world was turned upside down.  Taking a practice that was accepted for MANY years that 100's of hours were "wasted" practicing by MANY players and throwing it in the garbage.

 

Fast forward to a couple months ago when a spokesperson for the R&A stated "there will be changes coming" when asked to comment on the transformation and new style of game by Bryson.

 

Here we are post US Open with one of the most unconventionally conventional approaches to the game.  Bryson simply over powered the course and the field being the only player to shoot under par.  Since the completion of the Open there has been numerous talks of "what do we have to do now."  Mike Davis is stepping down at the end of 2021.

 

So what is coming?  Armlock issues?  Single length issues?  Ball issues (Nicklaus has been discussing for years)?

 

What are they going to quickly and hastily attempt to do to "bring the game back?"

Edited September 23, 2020 by mvhoffman

[Sean2]

It's nice that a few people decide how 60 million golfers play the game. I understand the need for rules, but sometimes I think the ruling bodies can be a bit heavy handed...and, instead of growing the game, they end up doing the opposite. 

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

I was feverishly typing a response to one of these threads a few days ago, when my wife came in and asked what had me so worked up.  I spent the entire 20 minutes walking our dog, telling her about Bryson and all the angry keyboard warriors on this site debating on how to change golf.

 

Her question was "Why not just lean into it?"

 

Sports evolve.  Her sport (swimming) has come leaps and bounds from where it was when she was competitively swimming...Her best time as a varsity swimmer wouldn't get her a spot on the competitive team she's coaching right now.  Yet, swimming has not mandated that all swimmers wear board shorts or carry parachutes behind them.  She echoed the sentiment in that other thread about either changing the par ratings or doing away with par ratings altogether at the professional level.

 

Fact is, 59 million of those 60 million golfers just want to have fun.  They want explosive distance, and they want to see shots that look really, really good at their work outings, church scrambles, or weekend beer leagues.  That's what has driven loft jacking in irons:  Bob bought some new Taylor Mades, and now his 7 iron goes as far as my 6 iron...I better buy some new Clevelands, so I can hit my 7 iron as far as Bob, even though my new 7 iron is lofted identically to my old 6 iron.

[davep043]

What's next?  In 6 months or a year or a bit longer, they'll announce the changes they plan as a result of the Distance Initiative.  Assuming they don't completely change courses, that won't involve distance reductions across the board.  The USGA and R&A have taken a much longer view of this than the typical online forum user, and I anticipate that they'll continue in that vein.  This one tournament worked out largely as they had hoped, only one player under par, severe rough penalizing damn near every single player in the field.  

[Hawkeye77]

 

I'm too lazy to link to all the others but this one was started just yesterday.  

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

And this retread of all the usual suspect arguments.

 

And jeez, no, they are not going to target single length irons, LOL.  

 

So it's about the same old stuff and Bryson, which right now is also the same old stuff.

Edited September 23, 2020 by Hawkeye77

[Hawkeye77]

Hoping Patrick Reed is videotaped getting a traffic ticket or cutting his yard too short.

[2bGood]

36 minutes ago, HappyGilmoresBoots said:

I was feverishly typing a response to one of these threads a few days ago, when my wife came in and asked what had me so worked up.  I spent the entire 20 minutes walking our dog, telling her about Bryson and all the angry keyboard warriors on this site debating on how to change golf.

 

Her question was "Why not just lean into it?"

 

Sports evolve.  Her sport (swimming) has come leaps and bounds from where it was when she was competitively swimming...Her best time as a varsity swimmer wouldn't get her a spot on the competitive team she's coaching right now.  Yet, swimming has not mandated that all swimmers wear board shorts or carry parachutes behind them.  She echoed the sentiment in that other thread about either changing the par ratings or doing away with par ratings altogether at the professional level.

 

Fact is, 59 million of those 60 million golfers just want to have fun.  They want explosive distance, and they want to see shots that look really, really good at their work outings, church scrambles, or weekend beer leagues.  That's what has driven loft jacking in irons:  Bob bought some new Taylor Mades, and now his 7 iron goes as far as my 6 iron...I better buy some new Clevelands, so I can hit my 7 iron as far as Bob, even though my new 7 iron is lofted identically to my old 6 iron.

 Pretty bad example. Swimming had a MASSIVE role back years ago by the governing bodies when they thought technology had gone too far with full body swim suits. Training evolved, sure, but they went way backwards with technology.

 

You should ask her why swimming to lean in?

 

It the same thing we are looking at with golf, limiting or rolling back the technology. 

Edited September 23, 2020 by 2bGood

[the bishop]

53 minutes ago, davep043 said:

What's next?  In 6 months or a year or a bit longer, they'll announce the changes they plan as a result of the Distance Initiative.  Assuming they don't completely change courses, that won't involve distance reductions across the board.  The USGA and R&A have taken a much longer view of this than the typical online forum user, and I anticipate that they'll continue in that vein.  This one tournament worked out largely as they had hoped, only one player under par, severe rough penalizing damn near every single player in the field.  

At the BMW at Olympia Fields, which was the closest comparable test to WF prior to the US Open and played like a major test but for the name, Bryson finished at +10, 14 shots off the winning score.  Its foolish to extrapolate what he did at WF and think he will do that every time.  WF set up great for his game when he was on.  The fairways had a lot of run in them and a lot of the greens complexes were wide open at the front allowing him to run balls up from the rough.  Not all courses will set up that way and he won't always be on his game.  I am hopeful the ruling bodies take all of that into consideration.

[davep043]

2 minutes ago, the bishop said:

At the BMW at Olympia Fields, which was the closest comparable test to WF prior to the US Open and played like a major test but for the name, Bryson finished at +10, 14 shots off the winning score.  Its foolish to extrapolate what he did at WF and think he will do that every time.  WF set up great for his game when he was on.  The fairways had a lot of run in them and a lot of the greens complexes were wide open at the front allowing him to run balls up from the rough.  Not all courses will set up that way and he won't always be on his game.  I am hopeful the ruling bodies take all of that into consideration.

No argument.  And this US Open wasn't the beginning of the trend towards huge distance at the top level of the game, its simply one more data point in the trend line.  What the Ruling Bodies do seem to be taking into account, based on their written report, is that comparable distance gains really aren't being realized by the huge majority of golfers, the issue is limited to the very top levels of the game.   

 

[Ferguson]

1 hour ago, HappyGilmoresBoots said:

I was feverishly typing a response to one of these threads a few days ago, when my wife came in and asked what had me so worked up.  I spent the entire 20 minutes walking our dog, telling her about Bryson and all the angry keyboard warriors on this site debating on how to change golf.

 

Her question was "Why not just lean into it?"

 

Sports evolve.  Her sport (swimming) has come leaps and bounds from where it was when she was competitively swimming...Her best time as a varsity swimmer wouldn't get her a spot on the competitive team she's coaching right now.  Yet, swimming has not mandated that all swimmers wear board shorts or carry parachutes behind them.  She echoed the sentiment in that other thread about either changing the par ratings or doing away with par ratings altogether at the professional level.

 

Fact is, 59 million of those 60 million golfers just want to have fun.  They want explosive distance, and they want to see shots that look really, really good at their work outings, church scrambles, or weekend beer leagues.  That's what has driven loft jacking in irons:  Bob bought some new Taylor Mades, and now his 7 iron goes as far as my 6 iron...I better buy some new Clevelands, so I can hit my 7 iron as far as Bob, even though my new 7 iron is lofted identically to my old 6 iron.

 

 

Fact is, 59 million of those 60 million golfers just want to have fun.  They want explosive distance, and they want to see shots that look really, really good at their work outings, church scrambles, or weekend beer leagues.  That's what has driven loft jacking in irons:  Bob bought some new Taylor Mades, and now his 7 iron goes as far as my 6 iron...I better buy some new Clevelands, so I can hit my 7 iron as far as Bob, even though my new 7 iron is lofted identically to my old 6 iron.

 

 

 

Not a single fact listed here. 

 

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

1 hour ago, Ferguson said:

 

 

Fact is, 59 million of those 60 million golfers just want to have fun.  They want explosive distance, and they want to see shots that look really, really good at their work outings, church scrambles, or weekend beer leagues.  That's what has driven loft jacking in irons:  Bob bought some new Taylor Mades, and now his 7 iron goes as far as my 6 iron...I better buy some new Clevelands, so I can hit my 7 iron as far as Bob, even though my new 7 iron is lofted identically to my old 6 iron.

 

 

 

Not a single fact listed here. 

 

People don't want to have really, really good looking shots when playing golf?  The majority of golfers don't want to have fun?

[HappyGilmoresBoots]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

 Pretty bad example. Swimming had a MASSIVE role back years ago by the governing bodies when they thought technology had gone too far with full body swim suits. Training evolved, sure, but they went way backwards with technology.

 

You should ask her why swimming to lean in?

 

It the same thing we are looking at with golf, limiting or rolling back the technology. 

And yet, records are still being broken.  Swimmers aren't handicapping themselves like posters here are suggesting with rolling back ball or club technology.  What speedsuits did was add a mechanical advantage.

[jons1]

To put it in perspective, after 4 rounds of golf only 1 player was under par, and it was single digits.  So bomb and gouge may leave a chalky taste in your mouth, but you still have to get the ball in the hole.

 

If they don't like the approach... change the ball... otherwise brace yourself because it's never going to stop.

 

Snead, Arnie, Jack, Tiger, Rory, DJ... whoever it is, they all have used length to take advantage.  Get stronger, get more flexible, and do the same thing.

[2bGood]

7 hours ago, HappyGilmoresBoots said:

And yet, records are still being broken.  Swimmers aren't handicapping themselves like posters here are suggesting with rolling back ball or club technology.  What speedsuits did was add a mechanical advantage.

What are you taking about? Swimming rolled back the suits because they allowed swimmers to go faster. Golf is talking about rolling back the ball/driver as they allow golfers to hit further. It is exactly the same. 

 

The only difference is swimming acted much faster and much more decisively. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by 2bGood

[airjammer]

I expect them to put a limit on cor under a certain loft like they did with the groove rule. I could see them adjust the bulge and roll specs as well. The average consumer won’t be able to purchase them similar to some of the tour issue stuff Taylormade has released in the past. 
 

I don’t suspect it will have any great significance on players overall performance to their peers, they will just be farther away from the hole after anything above a 2 iron. 

[Valtiel]

I said it before in a different thread, and since this is clearly a Bryson focused issue, just bifurcate driver loft. Anything under 8* is for competitive long drive only. The only reason Bryson is able to fully utilize his speed is by keeping spin under control with a 5* driver and hitting way up on it. Problem solved and it literally only impacts him. Yes it is crappy and reactionary, but so is literally almost every other option that would impact every pro or even every player depending on which option they choose. 

[m d g]

I confidently predict more acronyms...and golf stuff.

[Shilgy]

7 hours ago, mvhoffman said:

Last time there was an unconventional winner of majors (Keegan and A. Scott) using the belly/long putters, the golf world was turned upside down.  Taking a practice that was accepted for MANY years that 100's of hours were "wasted" practicing by MANY players and throwing it in the garbage.

 

Fast forward to a couple months ago when a spokesperson for the R&A stated "there will be changes coming" when asked to comment on the transformation and new style of game by Bryson.

 

Here we are post US Open with one of the most unconventionally conventional approaches to the game.  Bryson simply over powered the course and the field being the only player to shoot under par.  Since the completion of the Open there has been numerous talks of "what do we have to do now."  Mike Davis is stepping down at the end of 2021.

 

So what is coming?  Armlock issues?  Single length issues?  Ball issues (Nicklaus has been discussing for years)?

 

What are they going to quickly and hastily attempt to do to "bring the game back?"

Anchoring was difficult enough. How exactly would you ban armlock putting? You, the USGA, was wanted putting to look conventional. Well, armlock users use a conventional grip. They just use a club too long for them and forward press enough to have the shaft pressed against the forearm. It is not “locked” in any way.
Single length clubs same question. How to write the rule....strike that. Why would single length be an issue? Because one guy did well with it? Might as well ban the hat...Hogan...Venturi....Payne...BDC.  It’s gotta be the hat!

[molecularman]

I think armlock putting should be banned.     Something like  "The club shall have no connection to any part of the body during a stroke, except for the hands."


I have said in the past, but I believe the CC limit should be drastically lower.    Professionals don't need a 460CC driver.   With such a large driver, it allows manufacturers ample room to redistribute weight, and it allows pros to go after the ball without recourse.    Drop the max CC down to 300 for pros. 

For courses -   raise the fairway height,  no more 50 yards of roll.     Plant more trees 320 out to actually penalize wayward bombs.   

 

[ChillyDipper]

8 hours ago, Sean2 said:

It's nice that a few people decide how 60 million golfers play the game. I understand the need for rules, but sometimes I think the ruling bodies can be a bit heavy handed...and, instead of growing the game, they end up doing the opposite. 

Why is it assumed that the rules will affect the 60 million regular joes and not be limited to the Tour level?

[modelm]

How about this? Paint a line on each fairway ~300 yards from the tee box. If the player's ball goes past this line, the player shall incur a 1 shot penalty.

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, molecularman said:

I think armlock putting should be banned.     Something like  "The club shall have no connection to any part of the body during a stroke, except for the hands."


I have said in the past, but I believe the CC limit should be drastically lower.    Professionals don't need a 460CC driver.   With such a large driver, it allows manufacturers ample room to redistribute weight, and it allows pros to go after the ball without recourse.    Drop the max CC down to 300 for pros. 

For courses -   raise the fairway height,  no more 50 yards of roll.     Plant more trees 320 out to actually penalize wayward bombs.   

 

 

Never understood why they did not just go with -' putter is shortest club in the bag' rule. For the record I was against messing around with that rule, unconventional putting is what keep lots of players in the game when they develop yips and the like. 

[Ferguson]

15 hours ago, HappyGilmoresBoots said:

People don't want to have really, really good looking shots when playing golf?  The majority of golfers don't want to have fun?

 

 

Perhaps this will help in terms of FACTS:

 

 

They want explosive distance, and they want to see shots that look really, really good at their work outings, church scrambles, or weekend beer leagues. 

 

Do the people that typically play in these events know what a really, really good looking shot is?   Probably not.  

A good looking shot is subjective to the player’s desired flight path.  My ball flight has changed immensely in the last 6 years.  

Let’s be factual and say most ams just want to hook up and hit a solid shot, repeatedly. 

The biggest overall complaint in golf is inconsistency (from shot-to-shot, round-to-round and week-to-week).     

 

 

That's what has driven loft jacking in irons:  Bob bought some new Taylor Mades, and now his 7 iron goes as far as my 6 iron...I better buy some new Clevelands, so I can hit my 7 iron as far as Bob, even though my new 7 iron is lofted identically to my old 6 iron.

 

No.  Modern materials, marketing and manufacturing has led to loft changes.  Bob’s influence in club choice is confined only to his buddy.

It’s a fact that Bob has NO influence on the market as a whole.

 

[airjammer]

21 hours ago, Sean2 said:

It's nice that a few people decide how 60 million golfers play the game. I understand the need for rules, but sometimes I think the ruling bodies can be a bit heavy handed...and, instead of growing the game, they end up doing the opposite. 

As we found out by this pandemic, people like the game..it has nothing to do with the clubs or the rules..it all has to do with free time. 
 

I started a topic in the general section a couple of months back asking why you started playing again and that was the main answer. Working from home has allowed many people a much more flexible work schedule. Even after the stimulus has ended the local course I go to has tee times made up to about 1pm on a Tuesday so money seems to have very little effect. Before the pandemic they were lucky to have any tee times scheduled after the weekday Senior group that goes of at 9am...all walk ons. 
 

All these people that took up the game seem to care less about the equipment.  To them it’s a very simple game..buy whatever equipment manufacturers sell and hit the ball until they get it in the hole. They by and large seem pretty happy about it.  I have yet to talk to a new player and have they complain about how hard the game is.  They say it’s hard but more like they enjoy the challenge type of way. So I see no reason perhaps bringing more artistry back into the game will really hurt growing the game, which IMO the only people who care about growing the game are the ones who will benefit by making more money.    
 

It seems a lot of people don’t like change period. I work with guy that hates any change even good change. He’ll complain about the company giving us more vacation day because he will have to think about how to schedule them??‍♂️

[Kilo1545]

4 hours ago, Ferguson said:

 

That's what has driven loft jacking in irons:  Bob bought some new Taylor Mades, and now his 7 iron goes as far as my 6 iron...I better buy some new Clevelands, so I can hit my 7 iron as far as Bob, even though my new 7 iron is lofted identically to my old 6 iron.

 

No.  Modern materials, marketing and manufacturing has led to loft changes.  Bob’s influence in club choice is confined only to his buddy.

It’s a fact that Bob has NO influence on the market as a whole.

 

 

Serious question; I'm not sharpshooting here.  You state that, along with other things, marketing has led to loft changes.  Then you state that the consumer (Bob) has no influence.  That seems to be a bit contradictory, doesn't it?  Who are they marketing to, if not Bob?  If the consumer has no influence, there'd be no marketing in the first place.  His example is rudimentary, but I'm having a hard time finding the flaw in it.

 

Enlighten me.  (Seriously, I'd like to hear your opinion.  I may be missing your point.)

[Ferguson]

21 minutes ago, Kilo1545 said:

 

Serious question; I'm not sharpshooting here.  You state that, along with other things, marketing has led to loft changes.  Then you state that the consumer (Bob) has no influence.  That seems to be a bit contradictory, doesn't it?  Who are they marketing to, if not Bob?  If the consumer has no influence, there'd be no marketing in the first place.  His example is rudimentary, but I'm having a hard time finding the flaw in it.

 

Enlighten me.  (Seriously, I'd like to hear your opinion.  I may be missing your point.)

 

 

You referenced yourself in the first person, therefore you independently are the consumer being influenced by Bob.   The distance Bob hits his 7 iron compared to the distance you get from your 6 iron is a personal observation and does not represent the entire market.  In other words,  Bob may have influence over you at a micro level but not every Bob has a friend that will be influenced.   Maybe Bob just got a lesson that day or maybe you spend too much time worrying about what “the other guy” is doing? Either way,  the market doesn't exist at the individual consumer level.  One of the largest contributing factors to a golf club purchase for most recreational players is how the club looks.  80% of the decision is made on name and looks of the club even before hitting the first shot.  How many times have you been in Golf Galaxy and Rex is holding an iron and comments to his buddy or wife, "this looks nice." 

 

 

Re: Marketing to the masses

The campaign of irons with stronger lofts is simply a trend that attempts to mimic what tour guys have done forever.  And, if you look back in history, there have been hundreds of golf trends.  They come and go like the tides.  No matter what the brand, they all play follow the leader and move in herds. 

 

 

[caniac6]

Boy, I can't wait for smaller drivers, and balls that spin more! Shorter, more crooked drives, yahoo! The rounds will be longer, and the courses will be less crowded. Sounds like a plan.

[bscinstnct]

23 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Hoping Patrick Reed is videotaped getting a traffic ticket or cutting his yard too short.

 

As long as they don’t get him like,

 

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

9 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

As long as they don’t get him like,

 

 

Then this happens