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What's coming next from the USGA and R&A...


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2 minutes ago, Ferguson said:

 

 

You referenced yourself in the first person, therefore you independently are the consumer being influenced by Bob.   The distance Bob hits his 7 iron compared to the distance you get from your 6 iron is a personal observation and does not represent the entire market.  In other words,  Bob may have influence over you at a micro level but not every Bob has a friend that will be influenced.   Maybe Bob just got a lesson that day or maybe you spend too much time worrying about what “the other guy” is doing? Either way,  the market doesn't exist at the individual consumer level.  One of the largest contributing factors to a golf club purchase for most recreational players is how the club looks.  80% of the decision is made on name and looks of the club even before hitting the first shot.  How many times have you been in Golf Galaxy and Rex is holding an iron and comments to his buddy or wife, "this looks nice." 

 

 

Re: Marketing to the masses

The campaign of irons with stronger lofts is simply a trend that attempts to mimic what tour guys have done forever.  And, if you look back in history, there have been hundreds of golf trends.  They come and go like the tides.  No matter what the brand, they all play follow the leader and move in herds. 

 

 

I didn't reference myself in the first person (it wasn't me who gave that example).  I'm a 3rd party observer on this one.

 

I think his example and your train of thought are NOT in as much conflict as you think.  You're just flying at 60,000 feet while his example is at 10,000 feet.  You're not on a collision course, at least not in my opinion.

 

The quest for distance relative to the number on the bottom of the club (regardless of its true loft) is so common that it's become cliche, a trope, a meme.  "That look on your face when your buddies pull out their PW's and you're holding a 7-iron", etc., etc.

 

I get that a 43 degree PW isn't really a PW, and all that.  Jacking the lofts is an easy way to have clubs that "give you that extra distance you've been looking for, for the low price of $XXX."  Nevermind that your new 7-iron is really a 6-iron with the shaft length of a 7.  Joe Consumer isn't reading the specs/lofts on the clubs and he wouldn't understand them if he did.  We might, they don't.  He just knows that he read the new TitleMade 9000's fly further than the old 8000's and/or that his buddy hits his new PingZuno 7744's a lot further than he did his old PingZuno 7743's.  

 

That's marketing at it's basic level, and it's directed at Bob.  Marketing only works if the consumer responds, therefore the consumer has influence.  I get the different types of marketing - creating a product and convincing the consumer he/she needs or wants it vs. finding out what the consumer wants and then convincing he/she that your product fills that need.  It's a directional thing, for sure, but the consumer is still calling the shots by either buying/not buying.

 

 

 

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Yeah, but companies understand that a large swath of consumers are now incredibly stupid and easily led since goldfish have now exceeded humans in attention span.

 

Consumers buy on emotion, FOMO color, and branding. How else can you explain companies getting buyers to actually pay money for golf bags, shirts, hats and crap with company logos on them. You pay the company to advertise their products...

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bought out by private equity.

capitalization, grammar and reasoning slashed as a cost reduction.

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1 hour ago, Kilo1545 said:

I didn't reference myself in the first person (it wasn't me who gave that example).  I'm a 3rd party observer on this one.

 

I think his example and your train of thought are NOT in as much conflict as you think.  You're just flying at 60,000 feet while his example is at 10,000 feet.  You're not on a collision course, at least not in my opinion.

 

The quest for distance relative to the number on the bottom of the club (regardless of its true loft) is so common that it's become cliche, a trope, a meme.  "That look on your face when your buddies pull out their PW's and you're holding a 7-iron", etc., etc.

 

I get that a 43 degree PW isn't really a PW, and all that.  Jacking the lofts is an easy way to have clubs that "give you that extra distance you've been looking for, for the low price of $XXX."  Nevermind that your new 7-iron is really a 6-iron with the shaft length of a 7.  Joe Consumer isn't reading the specs/lofts on the clubs and he wouldn't understand them if he did.  We might, they don't.  He just knows that he read the new TitleMade 9000's fly further than the old 8000's and/or that his buddy hits his new PingZuno 7744's a lot further than he did his old PingZuno 7743's.  

 

That's marketing at it's basic level, and it's directed at Bob.  Marketing only works if the consumer responds, therefore the consumer has influence.  I get the different types of marketing - creating a product and convincing the consumer he/she needs or wants it vs. finding out what the consumer wants and then convincing he/she that your product fills that need.  It's a directional thing, for sure, but the consumer is still calling the shots by either buying/not buying.

 

 

 

 

I apologize for thinking you were the swimmer's husband.   His post lacked factual content.   

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

Never understood why they did not just go with -' putter is shortest club in the bag' rule. For the record I was against messing around with that rule, unconventional putting is what keep lots of players in the game when they develop yips and the like. 


Yeah,  I am firmly in the all or nothing camp.    They shouldn't have banned Sam Snead's putting style and they shouldn't have banned anchoring.   But... because they did,  I think they should just go the full mile and ban the armlock style.     They should probably ban all the spaceship branding iron putters as well.    Something like "The putter shall not have a width and length to exceed   X by X inches. 

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Equipment? Yes. Better athletes? Yes. How do you stop evolution in any sport?

 

Football today has little in common with the run-oriented, physical game of the 1990s.

Hockey no longer uses wooden sticks and goalies don't use that Jason Voorhies mask any longer.

3-pointers are now the norm in the NBA.

 

These guys are bigger, stronger and better athletes than any golfer of my generation (50). They use gyms, and nutrition and yoga, and whatever else is out there. Fuzzy Zoeller won a major without ever knowing the location of a gym. Tiger started that change and it's here to stay now. You can't rollback physical improvements these guys are making. That's hard work and dedication and it pays off in sports.

 

But equipment, well it is better. Much better.

 

In 1997 I bought the first generation Callaway Great Big Bertha titanium head driver. It was twice the size of my previous driver and once I changed out the noodle shaft, it was a big step forward. But still, I hit that thing 240 on a good swing. Fast forward 23 years and the advancements in balls, the club head spring face, high-tech shafts and I can now carry my 3W past my old driver distance. And I'm no bigger or stronger than I was 23 years ago ... well, bigger but not in any way that is advantageous.

 

I don't know. I like the idea of advancing technology keeping me in the game longer as I get older. But the game isn't quite so much fun to watch when accuracy isn't a priority. Maybe I'm biased toward my youth. Most of us are. I'm guilty of it just like everyone else. With that 460cc driver and a shaft that can support my body weight, if needed - I stand on that tee box and swing out of my shoes for that extra distance because I can. How can you miss the ball with a club face the size of a shoe box? 

 

But if that driver head was 300cc ????

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

Never understood why they did not just go with -' putter is shortest club in the bag' rule. For the record I was against messing around with that rule, unconventional putting is what keep lots of players in the game when they develop yips and the like. 

So the standard wedge is 35” or so and the armlock is 40-42”.   Too easy to get around that rule by playing in longer clubs and choking up I would think. Brooke Henderson has a driver that is 48” but effectively plays it at 44-45” by choking up.

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41 minutes ago, molecularman said:

 They should probably ban all the spaceship branding iron putters as well.    Something like "The putter shall not have a width and length to exceed   X by X inches. 

Check out the Equipment Rules, Section 2, Rule 4b(iii) which limits dimensions for putterheads.

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Bryson is working on a device that warps the space time continuum where gravity no longer effects the golf ball.  He should be able to drive it at least 865 miles when he finishes the work.  We should lengthen par 5s to at least 1500 miles then.

 

6 under par for 4 days... anyone else not that concerned?

 

Jack Nicklaus dominated with an upright swing that was powerful.  Now it's true the golf ball forced him to play a littler smarter and hit less than driver off of many tees, his game was basically what we saw Bryson do... bomb and gouge.  That's why he was so good in the majors... high shots, lots of length, could muscle it out of any rough.  This is nothing new... the golf ball just makes it easier to do it.

 

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On 9/23/2020 at 7:23 PM, the bishop said:

At the BMW at Olympia Fields, which was the closest comparable test to WF prior to the US Open and played like a major test but for the name, Bryson finished at +10, 14 shots off the winning score.  Its foolish to extrapolate what he did at WF and think he will do that every time.  WF set up great for his game when he was on.  The fairways had a lot of run in them and a lot of the greens complexes were wide open at the front allowing him to run balls up from the rough.  Not all courses will set up that way and he won't always be on his game.  I am hopeful the ruling bodies take all of that into consideration.

 

Let’s see what happens if he brings Augusta to its knees. There is a course perfectly set up for BCD’s game.

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3 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

Yeah, but companies understand that a large swath of consumers are now incredibly stupid and easily led since goldfish have now exceeded humans in attention span.

 

Consumers buy on emotion, FOMO color, and branding. How else can you explain companies getting buyers to actually pay money for golf bags, shirts, hats and crap with company logos on them. You pay the company to advertise their products...

 

Pro V1 being the classic example ?

Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
Callaway XR Speed 3W Project X HZRDUS T800 65 Stiff
Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
Cobra King CB/MB Flow 4-6, 7-PW C-Taper Stiff or Mizuno MP4 4-PW
Vokey SM8 52/58; MD Golf 56
Radius Classic 8

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1 hour ago, maowv said:

Equipment? Yes. Better athletes? Yes. How do you stop evolution in any sport?

 

Football today has little in common with the run-oriented, physical game of the 1990s.

Hockey no longer uses wooden sticks and goalies don't use that Jason Voorhies mask any longer.

3-pointers are now the norm in the NBA.

 

These guys are bigger, stronger and better athletes than any golfer of my generation (50). They use gyms, and nutrition and yoga, and whatever else is out there. Fuzzy Zoeller won a major without ever knowing the location of a gym. Tiger started that change and it's here to stay now. You can't rollback physical improvements these guys are making. That's hard work and dedication and it pays off in sports.

 

But equipment, well it is better. Much better.

 

In 1997 I bought the first generation Callaway Great Big Bertha titanium head driver. It was twice the size of my previous driver and once I changed out the noodle shaft, it was a big step forward. But still, I hit that thing 240 on a good swing. Fast forward 23 years and the advancements in balls, the club head spring face, high-tech shafts and I can now carry my 3W past my old driver distance. And I'm no bigger or stronger than I was 23 years ago ... well, bigger but not in any way that is advantageous.

 

I don't know. I like the idea of advancing technology keeping me in the game longer as I get older. But the game isn't quite so much fun to watch when accuracy isn't a priority. Maybe I'm biased toward my youth. Most of us are. I'm guilty of it just like everyone else. With that 460cc driver and a shaft that can support my body weight, if needed - I stand on that tee box and swing out of my shoes for that extra distance because I can. How can you miss the ball with a club face the size of a shoe box? 

 

But if that driver head was 300cc ????

 

 

 

"I stand on that tee box and swing out of my shoes for that extra distance because I can. How can you miss the ball with a club face the size of a shoe box? "

 

LOL!>>>How can you ask that question? Just stand on the first tee of any Muni and watch the 18 handicapper tee off.....I've seen a guy hit the tee shot backwards....

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22 hours ago, Shilgy said:

So the standard wedge is 35” or so and the armlock is 40-42”.   Too easy to get around that rule by playing in longer clubs and choking up I would think. Brooke Henderson has a driver that is 48” but effectively plays it at 44-45” by choking up.

 

I would say go for it! If you want to play 43" wedge (and every other club as long or longer) to play a longer putter that is fine.

 

The RB's could just add maximum length of the grip to the equipment rules so folks wanting to play ultra long clubs would be chocking down to the bare shaft. If you are willing to comprise all you full shots for an armlock putter - fill your boots.

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12 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

Listened to a great podcast today. It was on the fried egg network. Andy Johnson and Geoff Ogilvy. Geoff mentioned something that I thought was very profound and very smart. He said that in 1997 everyone knee jerk reacted to Tiger. The reacted in the wrong way it that reaction has created a distance arms race that at this point cant be stopped unless the change their reaction. 

 

The decision was to lengthen courses. When they should have done nothing. That long, tight, and tall rough really makes it all about distance. So, the players reacting to question in front of them all got longer. When if they had kept things wider and faster and firmer. It would have forced golfers to develop different skills because length would be less of a premium.. 

 

Any way of you want to listen.. I thought it was great. 

 

 

https://thefriedegg.com/fried-egg-podcast/episode-192-geoff-ogilvy-2020-u-s-open-recap/

 

 

 

 

Geoff is a bit smarter than the average bear and his take is well thought out.  Nothing ever needed to be done other than proper course design and setup.  The golf course architects these days are weenies that are too wrapped up in artistry and esthetics.

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12 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Geoff is a bit smarter than the average bear and his take is well thought out.  Nothing ever needed to be done other than proper course design and setup.  The golf course architects these days are weenies that are too wrapped up in artistry and esthetics.

I agree. Great courses hold up well against length. Royal Melbourne is a great example. Now, I think we can all agree not every course can be Royal Melbourne but, it should be the model to follow. 

 

There were a few other really interesting takes as well. I want to listen to it again to get all of it in and see what can be garnished. Geoff is a guy that truly loves course design and golf history. So I think is thought should sit well with both sides. I think it is relatively in favor of a roll back but it sounds like he is also in favor of a bit smarter, more thought out course set up as well. 

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15 hours ago, Ferguson said:

 

 

Perhaps this will help in terms of FACTS:

 

 

They want explosive distance, and they want to see shots that look really, really good at their work outings, church scrambles, or weekend beer leagues. 

 

Do the people that typically play in these events know what a really, really good looking shot is?   Probably not.  

A good looking shot is subjective to the player’s desired flight path.  My ball flight has changed immensely in the last 6 years.  

Let’s be factual and say most ams just want to hook up and hit a solid shot, repeatedly. 

The biggest overall complaint in golf is inconsistency (from shot-to-shot, round-to-round and week-to-week).     

 

 

That's what has driven loft jacking in irons:  Bob bought some new Taylor Mades, and now his 7 iron goes as far as my 6 iron...I better buy some new Clevelands, so I can hit my 7 iron as far as Bob, even though my new 7 iron is lofted identically to my old 6 iron.

 

No.  Modern materials, marketing and manufacturing has led to loft changes.  Bob’s influence in club choice is confined only to his buddy.

It’s a fact that Bob has NO influence on the market as a whole.

 

Okay, fine, you win.

 

Joe and Bob Six-pack playing a handful of times a year don't want a good-looking shot, and the golf shops don't sell more and more clubs to people wanting to out-shoot their golf buds, which definitely don't drive market forces and stuff that's being sold in said golf shops.

 

Golf is better suited to mashies and lumpy balls.

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1 hour ago, Sean2 said:

I play a lot of golf. I have yet to see this "explosive" distance being bandied about either from me or those I play golf with. If anything, people could use more distance, lol. Dialing back anything would hurt the amateur golfer, and bifurcation is a non-starter. 

I really don't see dialing back as hurting because most everyone could move forward a set of tees.  Also if they dialed back the ball, it presumably would impact upper mid to tour level ball, not the softer ball that slower swings speeds should be using. 

 

That's purely a somewhat uneducated opinion on my behalf but seems logical to me at least.

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On 9/23/2020 at 12:20 PM, HappyGilmoresBoots said:

I was feverishly typing a response to one of these threads a few days ago, when my wife came in and asked what had me so worked up.  I spent the entire 20 minutes walking our dog, telling her about Bryson and all the angry keyboard warriors on this site debating on how to change golf.

 

Her question was "Why not just lean into it?"

 

Sports evolve.  Her sport (swimming) has come leaps and bounds from where it was when she was competitively swimming...Her best time as a varsity swimmer wouldn't get her a spot on the competitive team she's coaching right now.  Yet, swimming has not mandated that all swimmers wear board shorts or carry parachutes behind them.  She echoed the sentiment in that other thread about either changing the par ratings or doing away with par ratings altogether at the professional level.

 

Fact is, 59 million of those 60 million golfers just want to have fun.  They want explosive distance, and they want to see shots that look really, really good at their work outings, church scrambles, or weekend beer leagues.  That's what has driven loft jacking in irons:  Bob bought some new Taylor Mades, and now his 7 iron goes as far as my 6 iron...I better buy some new Clevelands, so I can hit my 7 iron as far as Bob, even though my new 7 iron is lofted identically to my old 6 iron.

 

Hate to come at this from a "holier than thou" standpoint but the average consumer is easily duped.  The "game improvement" iron lofts are strong,  The traditional blades to a much lesser extent, or at least you could buy them closer to traditional lofts a while back.  So you got a set of players who just care about their 7i going farther regardless of the fact that they now need to go buy another wedge or the set they just bought comes with this funny A or G club at the bottom end of the set.  And another set where the most important thing is getting the ball to stop where they want it.

 

I played in a work scramble the other day.  I was paired with a younger guy (I'm 35 so he was probably early 20's) and he was constantly asking me what club I was hitting then kind of chuckling that I was using too much club.  My irons are maybe 8 years old forged cb's.  Still pretty close to "traditional" lofts.  

 

I hate to pick at your wife's logic but swimming and timed events on a standardized arena/play area are different.  I don't think anyone begrudges people getting better or faster at their sport by working out.  When you involve equipment advances it gets hairy.  (Didn't they get rid of the full body swim suit things in competition?)

 

Where it really takes a left turn is when the playing field is designed to examine a player's abilities to hit certain shots, to test certain attributes of their games.  That seems to be the real playability issue to me.  Then you throw in the extra yardages required to continue to do that at the upper performance levels and the extra area/acreage you need to do that with the extra inputs (fertilize, water, fungicides, etc.) it starts to get unpalatable not only from a cost standpoint but you start to lose the argument for golf with non-golfers if golf courses aren't sustainable.

 

I am not sure if this is a good analogy but let me give it a try.  Steeplechase.  With horses not runners.  If for some reason there was some great advancement in horses that made them jump 5 feet higher, would all of the steeplechase jumps also need to be raised to create a challenge commensurate with the intent of the sport?  Without the real risk of knocking down a log steeplechase devolves into barrel racing and it becomes who has the fastest horse.

 

Without putting real challenges in front of professional golfers, it devolves into a driver/wedge/putting contest.  The only place left to test a long iron is on a par 3.  Four par threes over 200 yards I don't think is anybody's idea of good, thought-provoking golf architecture.

 

I think the USGA would be well served to not care as much what is going on with the pros.  Have your handful of events where the pros (men and ladies and senior) are eligible.  Set them up best you can and continue to spend the bulk of your efforts on the ams and recreational golfers and keeping golf sustainable and affordable.

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20 hours ago, caniac6 said:

Boy, I can't wait for smaller drivers, and balls that spin more! Shorter, more crooked drives, yahoo! The rounds will be longer, and the courses will be less crowded. Sounds like a plan.

 

I get you are being sarcastic but...

 

Go back to 1980.  The drives were shorter, but they fit the courses.  The balls did spin more, and the game was played differently as a result, there was a concession to accuracy and control over distance.  The rounds did not take longer to play.  Just as with advancing technology and driving it farther, the rounds have not gotten quicker.

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26 minutes ago, Sean2 said:

I play a lot of golf. I have yet to see this "explosive" distance being bandied about either from me or those I play golf with. If anything, people could use more distance, lol. Dialing back anything would hurt the amateur golfer, and bifurcation is a non-starter. 

I disagree people need more distance...people need to either play the correct tees for how far they actually hit it on a average shot.  I cannot remember the last time I played with someone who actually played tee too short for them.  You can plant a tee anywhere you have a stance so technically you can make the course as short as you want it just like a lot of people do with their kids.  
 

Sean you seem like a very nice human being and I appreciate that. But in golf and pretty much all sports you get what you deserve by your skill..end of story.  You can be the biggest jerk in the world and if you beat your opponents by 1 shot every time, you’re the best in the world.  If one needs more distance compared to their peers then by god they need to develop that skill by any means necessary.  For most it just a cop out..if they had distance then they would complain they don’t hit it straight enough. Then if they hit it long enough and straight enough they would just complain they don’t putt well enough and so on. People just want to better than they are from Am’s to professionals, some work to get better and some do nothing then complain about it’s not fair. 


If I had the ability change anything about golf or my life in general it would be the ability to replicate feelings you had the first time you felt them. Whether it be your first kiss or your first nutted 3wd off the deck over water to just a couple of feet. Because as you continuously do something those feelings become normalized. That’s the plight of a avid golfer, you hit enough really good shots for you that you don’t get “high” anymore. It only seems to come for beating your competition in which you have no control over how your competition plays. 


 

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43 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

I really don't see dialing back as hurting because most everyone could move forward a set of tees.  Also if they dialed back the ball, it presumably would impact upper mid to tour level ball, not the softer ball that slower swings speeds should be using. 

 

That's purely a somewhat uneducated opinion on my behalf but seems logical to me at least.

 

This is not a jab at you. But I have never understood the conjoined arguments of the ball goes to far!! You can move up a tee!! 

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16 hours ago, QuigleyDU said:

Listened to a great podcast today. It was on the fried egg network. Andy Johnson and Geoff Ogilvy. Geoff mentioned something that I thought was very profound and very smart. He said that in 1997 everyone knee jerk reacted to Tiger. The reacted in the wrong way it that reaction has created a distance arms race that at this point cant be stopped unless the change their reaction. 

 

The decision was to lengthen courses. When they should have done nothing. That long, tight, and tall rough really makes it all about distance. So, the players reacting to question in front of them all got longer. When if they had kept things wider and faster and firmer. It would have forced golfers to develop different skills because length would be less of a premium.. 

 

Any way of you want to listen.. I thought it was great. 

 

 

https://thefriedegg.com/fried-egg-podcast/episode-192-geoff-ogilvy-2020-u-s-open-recap/

 

 

 

 

 

I subscribe to that line of thinking as well.  You stretch a course out to 7500 or so and the potential winners pool gets smaller and more limited to the really long hitters.

 

I'd have to go dig it up but Tiger commented on a course/event one time that he didn't play it because it did not have 4 par five holes and so he lost a bit of advantage losing out on two opportunities to differentiate himself from the field.

 

Take a 380 yard hole and assume for a second that no one can drive it 380.  The player that can drive it only 270 but is deadly with his short irons can hit his approach in there dead nuts close and have a kick in birdie.  The player that drives it 340 can hit that 20 yard pitch in there dead nuts close and have a kick in birdie.  It's not that the long driver doesn't have an advantage, he does, it just is not as magnified.

 

Now how about a 480 yard hole.  Guy drives it 270 he has 210 left.  Other guy drives it 340 he has 140.  It is my belief that somewhere out around 160-180 yards that the "average proximity to hole after approach shot" really starts to grow.  Basically, even at the pro level, there is a big difference in results when they have a pw or 9i in their hands versus a 6i or 5i.  Plus since the shorter guy is only hitting driver 270 it is probably pretty safe to assume he hits his irons shorter too.  Maybe that 210 leave is actually a 5i or 4i.

 

The short but deadly iron player is not a viable option on tour, except when they play Harbour Town or some tight place like that.  And even then it isn't that the odds swing and the long guy loses his advantage, it is just that the long guy's advantage is not as pronounced.

 

BUT (big but) distance has always been an advantage.  So don't fall into the trap that this is a new phenomena.  It isn't.  What has changed is the amount of risk involved pursuing that distance.  Any number of technological advances have lead to that (pick em, balls, shafts, trackman, practice time (you got more time to practice when you fly vs. drive)).

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4 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

 

This is not a jab at you. But I have never understood the conjoined arguments of the ball goes to far!! You can move up a tee!! 

 

It is in relation to the conjoined argument that the ball can be rolled back for pro swing speeds but would impact everyone.  Making a course play well for shorter hitters is infinitely easier and cheaper than making it play well for hitters too long for the longest tee boxes.  IF you intend to keep features in the driving ranges of those longest players. 

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47 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

I really don't see dialing back as hurting because most everyone could move forward a set of tees.  Also if they dialed back the ball, it presumably would impact upper mid to tour level ball, not the softer ball that slower swings speeds should be using. 

 

That's purely a somewhat uneducated opinion on my behalf but seems logical to me at least.

 

In the UK the majority of courses don't facilitate this.  We still have the old system of ladies play off reds (social and comps) and gents off yellow (or white if playing in a competition), although gents that regularly compete will always play of the whites regardless.  We need a better systems of tees.

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