What's coming next from the USGA and R&A...

[NRJyzr]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

Baseball? Same bat size AND material used prolly for the last 100 years + 

 

The toaster sized, space age material, driver the supposedly pro golfers use now would be like if  if MLB players now allowed to use Titanium giant oversized bats like,

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, the bat is not the same size it used to be.  At some point in the last 15 years (could be sooner than that), the maximum barrel size of the bat was reduced slightly.  

 

There wasn't a lot of noise about it, but it happened.  Not sure if it's in response to the proliferation of maple, fitness, or anything else, for that matter.

 

[bscinstnct]

39 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Actually, the bat is not the same size it used to be.  At some point in the last 15 years (could be sooner than that), the maximum barrel size of the bat was reduced slightly.  

 

There wasn't a lot of noise about it, but it happened.  Not sure if it's in response to the proliferation of maple, fitness, or anything else, for that matter.

 

 

Well that’s pathetic.

 

Baseball make the pros use a bat with the smallest sweet spot, greatest weight per volume, and distance performance far worse than the bat that amateurs and even top college players use. 
 

And PGA Tour pros out there using the same toaster as a guy in his 70s who shoots 120 and needs all the help he can get.

 

 

[NRJyzr]

12 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Well that’s pathetic.

 

Baseball make the pros use a bat with the smallest sweet spot, greatest weight per volume, and distance performance far worse than the bat that amateurs and even top college players use. 
 

And PGA Tour pros out there using the same toaster as a guy in his 70s who shoots 120 and needs all the help he can get.

 

 

 

The ruling bodies screwed up HARD when they got so worried about the TiSI driver.  They focused far too much on COR, and ignored MOI.  The Integra 400 showed what was possible, but they ignored that warning shot.  They could have capped size right then and there.

 

[Shilgy]

8 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

I don’t think anyone is disappointed at how much time anyone spends practicing or working out. Just that the skill element has got less important as the fitness aspect has got more so. That means golf is less of a sport for all shapes and sizes, and increasingly everyone looks and swings the same. 

The fitness aspect has become more important at the highest level. Personally I don’t think it has reduced the skill level needed to play exceptional golf but has enhance it instead. But we still have a Aphibarnrat

 

and a Hadley to balance things out.

 

 

[Shilgy]

On 10/30/2020 at 1:16 PM, hammersia said:

Third Ryder Cup in a row for Europe. You had to start the Presidents Cup shortly afterwards in order for the PGA tour to win something. 

Isn’t that Tony Jacklin? I remember he was in that exhibition they used to to call the Ryder Cup and had some big concession given to him. Not sure why they made a big deal out of Jack’s gesture since it was before the matches counted. 😏
 

 

edited for spell check correcting Jacklin to Jackson.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Shilgy

[milesgiles]

44 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

The fitness aspect has become more important at the highest level. Personally I don’t think it has reduced the skill level needed to play exceptional golf but has enhance it instead. But we still have a Aphibarnrat

 

and a Hadley to balance things out.

 

 

 

How on earth has guys getting bigger and stronger enhanced their skill level?

[oikos1]

This idea of "technology" not being a part of other sports is comical.  To disregard such facts just lends itself to either a disingenuous argument or an argument from ignorance.  And let's put this "no technology" in baseball and how the game hasn't changed nonsense to rest please.

 

Playing Baseball Without Gloves—1860s Style

 

https://patch.com/missouri/eureka-wildwood/playing-baseball-without-gloves-1860s-style

[grm24]

5 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Isn’t that Tony Jackson?

Tony Jacklin would like a word with you.

[milesgiles]

6 hours ago, oikos1 said:

This idea of "technology" not being a part of other sports is comical.  To disregard such facts just lends itself to either a disingenuous argument or an argument from ignorance.  And let's put this "no technology" in baseball and how the game hasn't changed nonsense to rest please.

 

Playing Baseball Without Gloves—1860s Style

 

https://patch.com/missouri/eureka-wildwood/playing-baseball-without-gloves-1860s-style

I’m not going to go back and forth with you on this because I feel you’re just being deliberately obtuse. Almost all popular sports look broadly the same as they did 100 years ago if you watch the old films. There’s been incremental changes in fitness, skill, sports science, equipment and rules, but at no stage were any of these games turned on their head.

neither was golf up until the toaster on a stick and a 3 inch tee 30 years ago, and the negating of mid and long iron play. Don’t come back at me with steel shafts and guttys since they were essential to making the game accessible.

[bscinstnct]

9 hours ago, oikos1 said:

This idea of "technology" not being a part of other sports is comical.  To disregard such facts just lends itself to either a disingenuous argument or an argument from ignorance.  And let's put this "no technology" in baseball and how the game hasn't changed nonsense to rest please.

 

Playing Baseball Without Gloves—1860s Style

 

https://patch.com/missouri/eureka-wildwood/playing-baseball-without-gloves-1860s-style

 

You really want to keep this going? ; )

 

Ok.

 

You could hand Aaron Judge the exact same baseball bat that Mickey Mantle used in the 1950s. Have the pitcher use the same exact ball as they used in the 1950s. And he would use the same exact same swing, hit the ball exactly the same way and crack home runs exactly the *same distance. 

 

If you gave Bryson the same driver and ball that Sam Snead used in the 1950s and Bryson used the same swing he uses now, he would hit the ball about 280 instead of 330 yards, but more importantly, his drives would spray all over the place. 
 

And if you made an oversized, Titanium, bat for Aaron Judge, he would hit the ball like out of the Bronx and into Westchester county or hit line drives that would literally kill whoever tried the catch them ; )

 

 

 

 

[oikos1]

1 minute ago, bscinstnct said:

 

You really want to keep this going? ; )

 

Ok.

 

You could hand Aaron Judge the exact same baseball bat that Mickey Mantle used in the 1950s. Have the pitcher use the same exact ball as they used in the 1950s. And he would use the same exact same swing, hit the ball exactly the same way and crack home runs exactly the *same distance. 

 

If you gave Bryson the same driver and ball that Sam Snead used in the 1950s and Bryson used the same swing he uses now, he would hit the ball about 280 instead of 330 yards, but more importantly, his drives would spray all over the place. 
 

And if you made an oversized, Titanium, bat for Aaron Judge, he would hit the ball like out of the Bronx and into Westchester county or hit line drives that would literally kill whoever tried the catch them ; )

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not arguing that technology hasn't changed the game of golf.  In fact, the argument I'm hearing is GOLF is the only sport dramatically changed by technology.  That is just not true and disingenuous at best.  So no, I don't want to "keep this going", yet the "distance has ruined the game" crowd continue to refuse to play it straight.  Case in point from the post above yours:

 

"Almost all popular sports look broadly the same as they did 100 years ago if you watch the old films."

 

Golf doesn't "look" that much different compared to the past (sans cultural preferences in clothing).  The scoring and ways to score might be different, but that has also changed in basketball, football, and baseball to at least address the major sports in the U.S. 

[bscinstnct]

15 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

 

I'm not arguing that technology hasn't changed the game of golf.  In fact, the argument I'm hearing is GOLF is the only sport dramatically changed by technology.  That is just not true and disingenuous at best.  So no, I don't want to "keep this going", yet the "distance has ruined the game" crowd continue to refuse to play it straight.  Case in point from the post above yours:

 

"Almost all popular sports look broadly the same as they did 100 years ago if you watch the old films."

 

Golf doesn't "look" that much different compared to the past (sans cultural preferences in clothing).  The scoring and ways to score might be different, but that has also changed in basketball, football, and baseball to at least address the major sports in the U.S. 

 

 

Well, in defense of the golf authorities who regulate tech, this has been a “perfect storm” that they did not see getting away from them. 
 

Although, as NRjyzr said, maybe they should have in this post,

 

“The ruling bodies screwed up HARD when they got so worried about the TiSI driver.  They focused far too much on COR, and ignored MOI.  The Integra 400 showed what was possible, but they ignored that warning shot.  They could have capped size right then and there”

 

 

When Tiger came out, the affect of seeing him play must have been intoxicating for those who would profit. The tech progressed and, while it took TW time to adopt the Ti driver and Graphite, everybody else did and driving distance was off and running.

 

It worked well, “grip it and rip it” was fun to watch but slowly but surely the courses lengthened but the other course “defenses” got mitigated by high spin balls guys could play from the rough. Rough which, seemingly got less penal, especially with fans marching all over it.

 

Then, trackman and a host of tech that enable optimization for players with good length to hit farther, average hitters to be long hitters, and driver heads that, for these guys, helped poor strikes go straight.

 

More guys piling in with faster swings, guys working with specialized fitness trainers, and we are at a threshold.

 

For now, it’s Bryson with his training and tech, Cameron Champ with his freaky athleticism, who can carry 330+ routinely. But, there will be more and more guys like them coming. 

[Bad9]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

You really want to keep this going? ; )

 

Ok.

 

You could hand Aaron Judge the exact same baseball bat that Mickey Mantle used in the 1950s. Have the pitcher use the same exact ball as they used in the 1950s. And he would use the same exact same swing, hit the ball exactly the same way and crack home runs exactly the *same distance. 

 

If you gave Bryson the same driver and ball that Sam Snead used in the 1950s and Bryson used the same swing he uses now, he would hit the ball about 280 instead of 330 yards, but more importantly, his drives would spray all over the place. 
 

And if you made an oversized, Titanium, bat for Aaron Judge, he would hit the ball like out of the Bronx and into Westchester county or hit line drives that would literally kill whoever tried the catch them ; )

 

 

 

 

Actually the ball is probably very different, despite MLB denying it, most believe they have changed the tightness of the ball to promote more home runs and Judges swing would be way more of an uppercut swing than even 5yrs ago again in an effort to promote more home runs. Technology, statistics(science) have led baseball to believe that the only things that really matter to winning are home runs, strike outs and walks. The vast majority of every decision made by every team is governed by this. Stoluen bases, high batting averages are either frowned upon or deemed insignificant in todays game.

[Sean2]

Maybe we should go back to the abacus while we are at it...

[ThinkingPlus]

12 minutes ago, Sean2 said:

Maybe we should go back to the abacus while we are at it...

Too advanced.  Maybe knotted string or piles of pebbles.

[milesgiles]

1 hour ago, oikos1 said:

 

I'm not arguing that technology hasn't changed the game of golf.  In fact, the argument I'm hearing is GOLF is the only sport dramatically changed by technology.  That is just not true and disingenuous at best.  So no, I don't want to "keep this going", yet the "distance has ruined the game" crowd continue to refuse to play it straight.  Case in point from the post above yours:

 

"Almost all popular sports look broadly the same as they did 100 years ago if you watch the old films."

 

Golf doesn't "look" that much different compared to the past (sans cultural preferences in clothing).  The scoring and ways to score might be different, but that has also changed in basketball, football, and baseball to at least address the major sports in the U.S. 

 

The ability to generate speed/power has become more key to scoring, and the range of skills required to score has narrowed.

 

i don’t think there’s anything controversial or even debatable about that statement. Multiple major champions have said as much. 

[milesgiles]

18 minutes ago, Sean2 said:

Maybe we should go back to the abacus while we are at it...

 

You know you’ve lost when all you can come up with is a straw man 

[ThinkingPlus]

4 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

The ability to generate speed/power has become more key to scoring, and the range of skills required to score has narrowed.

 

i don’t think there’s anything controversial or even debatable about that statement. Multiple major champions have said as much. 

The range of skills has changed, but not sure about narrowed.  Short game skills have broadened quite a bit to handle faster green speeds and more challenging green complexes.  Taking spin off wedges is a new skill rarely required until the last 30 years or so.  Also, statistically the biggest difference in strokes gained between amateurs and pros is the longer approach shots (> 175 yards?) showing that area still has great importance.  The skill mix is different now, but to me still as challenging.

[Sean2]

30 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

You know you’ve lost when all you can come up with is a straw man 

Good thing I didn't come up with a straw man then. 

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, Bad9 said:

Actually the ball is probably very different, despite MLB denying it, most believe they have changed the tightness of the ball to promote more home runs and Judges swing would be way more of an uppercut swing than even 5yrs ago again in an effort to promote more home runs. Technology, statistics(science) have led baseball to believe that the only things that really matter to winning are home runs, strike outs and walks. The vast majority of every decision made by every team is governed by this. Stoluen bases, high batting averages are either frowned upon or deemed insignificant in todays game.

 

In 1956, Mickey Mantle played for the Yankees and led the American League in homeruns with 52. 
 

in 2017 Aaron Judge played for the Yankees and led the American League in homeruns with 52. 
 

They both used the same bat and the same ball and hit the ball the same way and the same distance. Some would argue Mickey Mantle actually hit it farther ; )

 

Looks like an uppercut here, total specimen, that guy. And Let’s not forget guys we’re hitting 50-60 home runs since 1920. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by bscinstnct

[Shilgy]

16 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

How on earth has guys getting bigger and stronger enhanced their skill level?

Oh c’mon. Are you seriously asking how fitness enhances skills? Why does any athlete get as fit as possible if not to enhance skill?  It does not make them more skilled but it makes their skills better. In golf in nothing else fitness makes a player better at the end of rounds, both physically and mentally. 

 

en·hance

/inˈhans,enˈhans/

verb

intensify, increase, or further improve the quality, value, or extent of.

 

 

[Shilgy]

11 hours ago, grm24 said:

Tony Jacklin would like a word with you.

I just returned to the page....f’n spell check lol.

[milesgiles]

35 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The range of skills has changed, but not sure about narrowed.  Short game skills have broadened quite a bit to handle faster green speeds and more challenging green complexes.  Taking spin off wedges is a new skill rarely required until the last 30 years or so.  Also, statistically the biggest difference in strokes gained between amateurs and pros is the longer approach shots (> 175 yards?) showing that area still has great importance.  The skill mix is different now, but to me still as challenging.

 

Short game skills are independent of the rest of the game though. We could/would have had more challenging greens regardless of toasters on a stick.

danger zone has always distinguished better players. 100 years ago as well I’m sure

[Shilgy]

12 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

In 1956, Mickey Mantle played for the Yankees and like the American League and homeruns with 52. 
 

in 2017 Aaron Judge played for the Yankees and let the American League in homeruns with 52. 
 

They both used the same bat and the same ball and hit the ball the same way and the same distance. Some would argue Mickey Mantle actually hit it farther ; )

 

Looks like an uppercut here, total specimen, that guy. And Let’s not forget guys we’re hitting 50-60 home runs since 1920. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

Mantle may have used an uppercut but are you really unaware of the changes Trackman and other similar devices have made to baseball? For a century or more most players were taught to hit down on the ball and today it is elevate elevate elevate.

 

https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/03/29/technology-revolution-baseball-trackman-edgertronic-rapsodo

Edited November 1, 2020 by Shilgy

[bscinstnct]

37 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The range of skills has changed, but not sure about narrowed.  Short game skills have broadened quite a bit to handle faster green speeds and more challenging green complexes.  Taking spin off wedges is a new skill rarely required until the last 30 years or so.  Also, statistically the biggest difference in strokes gained between amateurs and pros is the longer approach shots (> 175 yards?) showing that area still has great importance.  The skill mix is different now, but to me still as challenging.

 

I agree the players now are more talented than ever.

 

Rory and Adam Scott actually argue that equipment advances are detracting from the skills being on display as much as they should be. 
 

 

[Shilgy]

3 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Short game skills are independent of the rest of the game though. We could/would have had more challenging greens regardless of toasters on a stick.

danger zone has always distinguished better players. 100 years ago as well I’m sure

So you want the balance upset but in the other direction? You want the greens to be rock hard and fast and tucked pins but guys having to approach with one irons?

[NRJyzr]

3 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

You really want to keep this going? ; )

 

Ok.

 

You could hand Aaron Judge the exact same baseball bat that Mickey Mantle used in the 1950s. Have the pitcher use the same exact ball as they used in the 1950s. And he would use the same exact same swing, hit the ball exactly the same way and crack home runs exactly the *same distance. 

 

If you gave Bryson the same driver and ball that Sam Snead used in the 1950s and Bryson used the same swing he uses now, he would hit the ball about 280 instead of 330 yards, but more importantly, his drives would spray all over the place. 
 

And if you made an oversized, Titanium, bat for Aaron Judge, he would hit the ball like out of the Bronx and into Westchester county or hit line drives that would literally kill whoever tried the catch them ; )

 

 

 

 

 

Very much don't agree with your 50 yards shorter supposition.  DL3 bombing over the 275 range nets at ANGC with persimmon and Tour Balatas alone negates that point....

 

[bscinstnct]

16 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Mantle may have used an uppercut but are you really unaware of the changes Trackman and other similar devices have made to baseball? For a century or more most players were taught to hit down on the ball and today it is elevate elevate elevate.

 

https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/03/29/technology-revolution-baseball-trackman-edgertronic-rapsodo

 

Shilgy!

 

Are you saying that of all the guys since Babe Ruth hitting 60 home runs in 1920s, Mantle, Aaron, Reggie, and countless others who routinely piled up 40, 50+ HRs or more per year,

 

Mantle was an anomaly in swinging up?

 

Swinging down is something little league coaches teach kids who can’t make contact. Kids who kill the ball swinging up just keep doing it. I know in Uncle Rico baseball, the good hitters (like myself ; ) were never told to “swing down”. But kids who didn’t hit well were encouraged to just get the ball in play. 

 

 

[hammersia]

Toasters on a stick have also led to a big deterioration in the standards of amateurs with other clubs. 
Week in week out I see unbelievably bad swings at my home course, that you can get away with using the modern driver, but with a rescue or even a six iron in their hand... no chance. 
You used to have to learn the game properly.

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Shilgy!

 

Are you saying that of all the guys since Babe Ruth hitting 60 home runs in 1920s, Mantle, Aaron, Reggie, and countless others who routinely piled up 40, 50+ HRs or more per year,

 

Mantle was an anomaly in swinging up?

 

Swinging down is something little league coaches teach kids who can’t make contact. Kids who kill the ball swinging up just keep doing it. I know in Uncle Rico baseball, the good hitters (like myself ; ) were never told to “swing down”. But kids who didn’t hit well were encouraged to just get the ball in play. 

 

 

Bull! Pure and simply put. Why do you think there are more players hitting 20-30+ home runs but not more players hitting 60 or more? If it was just the ball itself there should be more players at the upper end and there are not.  But there are more players at the lower end. Why are their balls in play more more commonly elevated? Why is the guy like Didi Gregorius hitting 20+ home runs three years running after the three previous years hitting 7-6-9 homers per year? All players are now being taught to elevate. 
It is also one of the major changes that baseball purists hate. The number of “no fielding” at bats has skyrocketed. That is walks, strikeouts and home runs.  It is all analytics driven just like the length explosion on tour.