What's coming next from the USGA and R&A...

[clevited]

Just now, bladehunter said:

I still haven’t heard you explain why you can just pick a date on time in the early  90s and go back ?   We have the distance data from then.  We know how much the ball spun.  The only thing we don’t have ironed out is who and when to roll it back.  

 

Unless you are suggesting that everyone has to use for instance, a 975D, all the same shaft, length, head weight, loft, grip etc, how are you going to achieve much of anything?  Launch monitors tell us how good or bad a driver fits a golfer.  Changes to the shaft can be done, the head can be redesigned etc etc etc, and in the end you have a mini driver which I debunked as doing anything long ago.  You would have to test and quantify all of the new limits and variables you would need to hold manufacturers to in order to prevent this conversation from ever coming up again wouldn't you?  That is the idea of making a change to fix a problem, the problem doesn't come back.  

 

You also are not taking into consideration the talent level and athleticism of today's players.  I suggested that you have a tour full of pseudo Tiger players.  Meaning, a large amount of them are super talented hand eye coordination, have unlimited time and ability to practice, are very strong and athletic, have very strong and athletic swings, and are great under pressure.  You have to quantify that talent level before you can make a meaningful change.

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Provided we test this inside say 6 months. Fine. Doesn’t bother me to test , might show that we need to go back farther than I think.   
 

If that’s the goal fine.  But just saying it can’t be done due to a need for a 10 year study isn’t a genuine point.  So if that’s not what you’re saying then I apologize....but the data can easily be had. 

That’s the point though. The data cannot be “easily had”.  Let’s say they do what you suggest and go back to 975d and steel shaft. What can the manufacturers  do to that head to negate the shaft and head size change? If you don’t know that answer what was the point of changing? Are we just going to spitball ideas and make rules changes just to satisfy a small vocal group? And if that doesn’t work just throw out another idea? And another? And another? 

[clevited]

1 minute ago, bscinstnct said:

 

The elite players will be happily doing the testing.

 

Rory and all the best drivers will lead the way. I think even Bryson will come around as he realizes, given his dedication and ability, he stands to gain the most in terms of his margin of distance over the field.

 

The OEMs have an opportunity to hype and promote a TRUE “tour” Driver and hype the heck out of it and sell it to amateurs who want to play tour specs. 
 

And tour courses will absolutely be on board. 
 

Its win-win-win for all.

 

 

 

I think you are in your own little echo chamber world.  I don't think any players would volunteer to use a 975D during a tournament for instance.  For one, they would need to get used to it.  2, what are the odds it is fit to them or is that part of your plan, everyone gets the identical driver not changing it? 3, they aren't going to use anything they perceive might give them even the slightest disadvantage or that they aren't used to enough to be confident in.  

 

I don't know why you are doubling down on throwing clubs into the tour and testing them?  How is a plan to test all of these different ideas you guys all have, plus some, in a controlled environment with tour players coming in to test them and OEMs working on designs to get around their proposed changes not logical or wise?  If you want your outcome, the best possible version of it would come from doing it the right way which is to test it in a controlled way.

[clevited]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

That’s the point though. The data cannot be “easily had”.  Let’s say they do what you suggest and go back to 975d and steel shaft. What can the manufacturers  do to that head to negate the shaft and head size change? If you don’t know that answer what was the point of changing? Are we just going to spitball ideas and make rules changes just to satisfy a small vocal group? And if that doesn’t work just throw out another idea? And another? And another? 

 

Exactly this.

[Bad9]

39 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I believe that a great deal of “roll back” in distance can be realized by simply reducing the size of the driver, the sweet spot, and the MOI. 
 

Guys will lose distance to imperfectly struck drives. And, this will cause them much pause before attempting higher risk/reward big carries. 
 

The “testing” could start with this.

 

Here is a graph of how MOI levels impact distance on imperfect strikes and the article. Unfortunately, I can’t find the MOI levels for say, a Titleist 975d, but the chart shows starkly how MOI provides a level of forgiveness that is not befitting for “Pros” IMO

 

https://Not allowed because of spam.com/8-intriguing-charts-from-the-distance-insights-report/

 

 

 

But we are being told by others(at least one of whom liked your post) that smaller heads with lower MOI makes you focus better and hit better shots. I'm so confused!😕

[bscinstnct]

6 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I think you are in your own little echo chamber world.  I don't think any players would volunteer to use a 975D during a tournament for instance.  For one, they would need to get used to it.  2, what are the odds it is fit to them or is that part of your plan, everyone gets the identical driver not changing it? 3, they aren't going to use anything they perceive might give them even the slightest disadvantage or that they aren't used to enough to be confident in.  

 

I don't know why you are doubling down on throwing clubs into the tour and testing them?  How is a plan to test all of these different ideas you guys all have, plus some, in a controlled environment with tour players coming in to test them and OEMs working on designs to get around their proposed changes not logical or wise?  If you want your outcome, the best possible version of it would come from doing it the right way which is to test it in a controlled way.

 

I was not suggesting that players immediately use them in tournaments; )

 

But I am saying that this represents an opportunity for the best drivers, OEMs, and golf courses to benefit. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by bscinstnct

[bladehunter]

6 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

That’s the point though. The data cannot be “easily had”.  Let’s say they do what you suggest and go back to 975d and steel shaft. What can the manufacturers  do to that head to negate the shaft and head size change? If you don’t know that answer what was the point of changing? Are we just going to spitball ideas and make rules changes just to satisfy a small vocal group? And if that doesn’t work just throw out another idea? And another? And another? 

The answer is bifurcation.  That way the solution can be made in real time on tour.  Much like motor sports etc.  the rules change to fit the desired parameters.  Or to “ stay on the track “ so to speak.  

 

 

[bladehunter]

6 minutes ago, Bad9 said:

But we are being told by others(at least one of whom liked your post) that smaller heads with lower MOI makes you focus better and hit better shots. I'm so confused!😕

We can reverse that and ask “ why the pushback on rollback if it makes no difference “ as so many say.  You know. Top athletes and all.  
 

golf equipment is by far the worse ball drop of a  ruling body I can think of in sport.  They’ve changed the sport to something completely opposite.  It’s no different than if football allowed the ball to become smaller or the goal posts wider at the pro level. Maybe a 40 yard field for more TD passes ?  Same exact thing.  

Edited November 2, 2020 by bladehunter

[bladehunter]

10 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Exactly this.

So let me ask a legitimate question.  Please answer in real thoughts.  
 

 

if I came to you as a coach and said “ coach.  I’m not able to score with these guys him playing against.  I hit more fairways and more greens than most.  I don’t 3 putt. But every week someone different catches fire and wins.  And I keep in the top 10.... what would be your advice ?  Let’s assume this is a kid with speed but that swings in control.   

[Shilgy]

51 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

The scientific method is to be open minded to all results.

 

You have called the whole endeavour stupid and negative, you are the opposite of open minded. 

 

Thats logical  and factual 

Looks at it this way....you suggest “an event or two” with your suggestions as a good trial. True? So let’s have Miles and Blade play in these events. So now you have ill fitted clubs to use and you have to play for your livelihood with these implements. Will you do your best in that short of time? Given time could you find a workaround that would be an improvement? Given time could you and the equipment company find a workaround that would give you back your normal performance? Probably given how gifted the tour versions of Miles and Blade are.

 So what did your two event trial prove exactly?

[milesgiles]

21 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

Unless you are suggesting that everyone has to use for instance, a 975D, all the same shaft, length, head weight, loft, grip etc, how are you going to achieve much of anything?  Launch monitors tell us how good or bad a driver fits a golfer.  Changes to the shaft can be done, the head can be redesigned etc etc etc, and in the end you have a mini driver which I debunked as doing anything long ago.  You would have to test and quantify all of the new limits and variables you would need to hold manufacturers to in order to prevent this conversation from ever coming up again wouldn't you?  That is the idea of making a change to fix a problem, the problem doesn't come back.  

 

You also are not taking into consideration the talent level and athleticism of today's players.  I suggested that you have a tour full of pseudo Tiger players.  Meaning, a large amount of them are super talented hand eye coordination, have unlimited time and ability to practice, are very strong and athletic, have very strong and athletic swings, and are great under pressure.  You have to quantify that talent level before you can make a meaningful change.

 

Hold on though.. you told us that if they weren’t allowed to use a toaster on a stick, I was throwing tour pro’s on a fire..

 

please be logical, factual and consistent. I’m a stickler for that sort of thing 

[Shilgy]

9 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

So let me ask a legitimate question.  Please answer in real thoughts.  
 

 

if I came to you as a coach and said “ coach.  I’m not able to score with these guys him playing against.  I hit more fairways and more greens than most.  I don’t 3 putt. But every week someone different catches fire and wins.  And I keep in the top 10.... what would be your advice ?  Let’s assume this is a kid with speed but that swings in control.   

My advice would be....well Charles....you can keep doing what you are doing and make a ton of money. Top 10 every event will make you rich. Or....you can play more aggressively and make more birdies with some risk of also making more bogeys. Quit worrying about hitting greens and two putting. Hitting it close and one putting wins on tour these days.

[clevited]

5 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

So let me ask a legitimate question.  Please answer in real thoughts.  
 

 

if I came to you as a coach and said “ coach.  I’m not able to score with these guys him playing against.  I hit more fairways and more greens than most.  I don’t 3 putt. But every week someone different catches fire and wins.  And I keep in the top 10.... what would be your advice ?  Let’s assume this is a kid with speed but that swings in control.   

 

I am not sure where you are going with this but simply put, I would tell him to work harder than everyone else by identifying your weaknesses and improving them.  If he can put in more time than the other guys, stay sharper more consistently, and stable mentally/emotionally, he will more consistently win.

[clevited]

7 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Hold on though.. you told us that if they weren’t allowed to use a toaster on a stick, I was throwing tour pro’s on a fire..

 

please be logical, factual and consistent. I’m a stickler for that sort of thing 

 

See, now do you realize what you just did is an actual attempt at trolling me?  Comon man, can you just let it go and just join the conversation and add some more thoughts other than your wrong, i'm right and your consistent 3/4 inch tee idea.  This is a discussion, add to it and lets see where it goes?

[bladehunter]

3 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I am not sure where you are going with this but simply put, I would tell him to work harder than everyone else by identifying your weaknesses and improving them.  If he can put in more time than the other guys, stay sharper more consistently, and stable mentally/emotionally, he will more consistently win.

I think consistency was already  understood.  Isn’t the answer to hit it farther off the tee ? Throw away some consistency for the hot rounds to be able to win.  That’s how I see the pro game now.  
 

id like to see it returned to a point where fairways and greens plus no 3 putts equals final group on Sunday most of the time. ( assuming a normal measure of putts drop ). 
 

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by bladehunter

[bladehunter]

5 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

My advice would be....well Charles....you can keep doing what you are doing and make a ton of money. Top 10 every event will make you rich. Or....you can play more aggressively and make more birdies with some risk of also making more bogeys. Quit worrying about hitting greens and two putting. Hitting it close and one putting wins on tour these days.

Thank you.  Lol. See above response.  I’m going to go find some work to do.  

[milesgiles]

5 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Looks at it this way....you suggest “an event or two” with your suggestions as a good trial. True? So let’s have Miles and Blade play in these events. So now you have ill fitted clubs to use and you have to play for your livelihood with these implements. Will you do your best in that short of time? Given time could you find a workaround that would be an improvement? Given time could you and the equipment company find a workaround that would give you back your normal performance? Probably given how gifted the tour versions of Miles and Blade are.

 So what did your two event trial prove exactly?

 

I really, really would not be freaking out at the idea of using a mini driver. If the tour me fancied myself as a ball striker, I’d be all in favour. Ill fitted? You’d have, at the very very least two practise days to find a spec you could hit. It’s hardly that difficult these days.

 

what would it prove? Logically half the guys would have a better result and would see which side their bread was buttered. Not to mention a tv audience might find the new product more to their liking.. look at the popularity of the SWWOG episodes on this board alone which show what might happen 

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

Thank you.  Lol. See above response.  I’m going to go find some work to do.  

I am not saying hit it further at all. You must have missed my point. Or...you have a desire to go back to slow and steady golf where the goal is to hit greens and two putt. Rinse and repeat 18 times. Maybe shoot one or two under per round and be in contention.

 My post had absolutely nothing to do with “hit it further” . It was to drop the three yards and a cloud of dust mentality-to compare it to football- and air it out aggressively. Go for some of the tucked pins. Don’t just hit it to the middle of the green and be happy with a two putt. 

[milesgiles]

9 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

See, now do you realize what you just did is an actual attempt at trolling me?  Comon man, can you just let it go and just join the conversation and add some more thoughts other than your wrong, i'm right and your consistent 3/4 inch tee idea.  This is a discussion, add to it and lets see where it goes?

 

So far you’ve told us that we don’t think scenarios through, we are being emotional not logical, the whole idea is stupid and negative..

 

sounds like ‘im right you’re wrong’ to my ears 

[Shilgy]

3 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

I really, really would not be freaking out at the idea of using a mini driver. If the tour me fancied myself as a ball striker, I’d be all in favour. Ill fitted? You’d have, at the very very least two practise days to find a spec you could hit. It’s hardly that difficult these days.

 

what would it prove? Logically half the guys would have a better result and would see which side their bread was buttered. Not to mention a tv audience might find the new product more to their liking.. look at the popularity of the SWWOG episodes on this board alone which show what might happen 

Logically half the guys would have a better result than what? What they are currently using? Being forced to use equipment they find in two days would fit them better than what they have been meticulously fit for? 
The Shell series is fun nostalgia. And in those threads you might get what? 50 guys saying they enjoyed watching? 50 golf obsessed nerds watching how the past generation did it proves the masses will prefer it to what is currently on tour? Really? That is your contention?

[clevited]

11 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

So far you’ve told us that we don’t think scenarios through, we are being emotional not logical, the whole idea is stupid and negative..

 

sounds like ‘im right you’re wrong’ to my ears 

 

The difference between me and you is I have actively been trying to post supporting evidence, namely, the post I replied to you with a few pages back.  I am at least trying my best to describe why I think I am correct, and I think your idea is wrong, or not enough to accomplish the goal.  If you feel strongly about your idea, then support it.  If you post something I don't already know, or a new angle that is true and one I didn't see, I will be absolutely happy to admit as much and discuss it.  

 

If you haven't noticed, I am trying to continue a discussion, including with you even though I find you absolutely toxic to this thread.  I am trying to engage you, understand your thinking and get you to flesh out your idea more and present some useful information.  Poke holes in my ideas, present evidence to the contrary of what I say.  I am ready and willing to discuss.

[bscinstnct]

17 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I am not saying hit it further at all. You must have missed my point. Or...you have a desire to go back to slow and steady golf where the goal is to hit greens and two putt. Rinse and repeat 18 times. Maybe shoot one or two under per round and be in contention.

 My post had absolutely nothing to do with “hit it further” . It was to drop the three yards and a cloud of dust mentality-to compare it to football- and air it out aggressively. Go for some of the tucked pins. Don’t just hit it to the middle of the green and be happy with a two putt. 

 

Yo, Shilgy.

 

The goal is actually to make the game *more exciting, not to make it boring and conservative.

 

A “Tour” Driver that is less forgiving will add to the overall level of intensity.

 

And 300 yard drives will still be plentiful. 
 

The whole idea is more shots like this where the intended lines of play are preserved and risk vs reward is truly balanced,

 

 

 

 

 

[milesgiles]

13 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Logically half the guys would have a better result than what? What they are currently using? Being forced to use equipment they find in two days would fit them better than what they have been meticulously fit for? 
The Shell series is fun nostalgia. And in those threads you might get what? 50 guys saying they enjoyed watching? 50 golf obsessed nerds watching how the past generation did it proves the masses will prefer it to what is currently on tour? Really? That is your contention?

 

Half would do better under new regulations, half would do worse. It doesn’t matter that you shoot more than the week before, it’s relative to the field. Don’t know how else to explain it..

and yes, it’s my contention it would be more enjoyable to watch. There were genuine mishits on that show by some of the greatest golfers that have ever lived. You can’t mishit a toaster on a stick and it’s like watching F1 with no crashes. Zzz

[clevited]

1 minute ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Yo, Shilgy.

 

The goal is actually to make the game *more exciting, not to make it boring and conservative.

 

A “Tour” Driver that is less forgiving will add to the overall level of intensity.

 

And 300 yard drives will still be plentiful. 
 

The whole idea is more shots like this where the intended lines of play are preserved and risk vs reward is truly balanced,

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wanted to say this before, but wouldn't a modern golfer say Tiger was out of position there?  Modern golfer wouldn't hit it there, they would try and simplify their attack on the course so they don't have to.  Best way to score, simplify and lower unnecessary risk imo.  If you are feeling lucky, be aggressive. 

[clevited]

2 minutes ago, milesgiles said:

 

Half would do better under new regulations, half would do worse. It doesn’t matter that you shoot more than the week before, it’s relative to the field. Don’t know how else to explain it..

and yes, it’s my contention it would be more enjoyable to watch. There were genuine mishits on that show by some of the greatest golfers that have ever lived. You can’t mishit a toaster on a stick and it’s like watching F1 with no crashes. Zzz

 

Ever noticed they don't show the miss hits?  They just rarely show them on TV, have to watch live.  They are still enough of them over the course of a tournament imo.  Especially Phil lol.

Edited November 2, 2020 by clevited
Reworded

[bladehunter]

5 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I wanted to say this before, but wouldn't a modern golfer say Tiger was out of position there?  Modern golfer wouldn't hit it there, they would try and simplify their attack on the course so they don't have to.  Best way to score, simplify and lower unnecessary risk imo.  If you are feeling lucky, be aggressive. 

By this post I’ll never understand “ modern golf “.  To me. This sounds  like an ever changing  goal post.   “ hit it farther “ “ no hit it smarter “.  No hit it  Here “.  “ no hit it and find it “.   
 

im truly not being purposefully obtuse.  I truly don’t get the ever changing logic that is bomb and find golf.    What you just described is my own approach.  Hit less driver so as to not be in that position to begin with.  Stress free play .  

Edited November 2, 2020 by bladehunter

[Sean2]

This seems like a solution in search of a problem. The game is evolving, which is pretty much the nature of everything. And, it's not like you have a majority of professional golfers who carry the ball 340. Brian Gay won this past week and is ranked 136th in driving distance. The average drive on Tour is 295...with roll. I think Bryson DeChambeau is a bit of an outlier...even if people follow his regimen that doesn't mean they will achieve 200 mph+ ball speed. 

[bscinstnct]

3 minutes ago, clevited said:

 

I wanted to say this before, but wouldn't a modern golfer say Tiger was out of position there?  Modern golfer wouldn't hit it there, they would try and simplify their attack on the course so they don't have to.  Best way to score, simplify and lower unnecessary risk imo.  If you are feeling lucky, be aggressive. 

TW played a very high risk game. Went for all kinds of crazy shots when he felt the reward was there and the risk wouldn’t be total disaster. 
 

But that was also in the context of him being able to do this ; )

 

 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Yo, Shilgy.

 

The goal is actually to make the game *more exciting, not to make it boring and conservative.

 

A “Tour” Driver that is less forgiving will add to the overall level of intensity.

 

And 300 yard drives will still be plentiful. 
 

The whole idea is more shots like this where the intended lines of play are preserved and risk vs reward is truly balanced,

 

 

 

 

 

Yo bsc, we agree on that part. Ask Blade about the boring golf. I was replying to that.😏 As far as exciting golf.....since y’all seem to want to watch recovery shots why not let these guys “mindless whale away” as someone put it and have to recover?

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, milesgiles said:

 

Half would do better under new regulations, half would do worse. It doesn’t matter that you shoot more than the week before, it’s relative to the field. Don’t know how else to explain it..

and yes, it’s my contention it would be more enjoyable to watch. There were genuine mishits on that show by some of the greatest golfers that have ever lived. You can’t mishit a toaster on a stick and it’s like watching F1 with no crashes. Zzz

So you can’t mishit the derisively nicknamed toaster driver but the same pros are blasted for missing fairways? What am I missing lol? Can they or can they not be mishit?

 

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

By this post I’ll never understand “ modern golf “.  To me. This sounds  like an ever changing  goal post.   “ hit it farther “ “ no hit it smarter “.  No hit it  Here “.  “ no hit it and find it “.   
 

im truly not being purposefully obtuse.  I truly don’t get the ever changing logic that is bomb and find golf.    What you just described is my own approach.  Hit less driver so as to not be in that position to begin with.  Stress free play .  

Stress free play might work at our level. You asked a few posts ago about the hypothetical player making top 10’s with stress free golf and how to win. At the tour level you need better than that.  What you call bomb and find golf does not exist. No one is just blasting away and hoping they can find it. No one! These pros are much better than you give them credit for. And with that comes a need to play aggressively if you want to win. You want to lay back and play safe? Fine....see you next week while you miss the cut. Someone will have their A game this week and that is what you need to beat. You are not competing with the scratch player happy to make pars on a tough track.