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What's coming next from the USGA and R&A...


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5 hours ago, Sean2 said:

@davep043 You said: "What's next?  In 6 months or a year or a bit longer, they'll announce the changes they plan as a result of the Distance Initiative."

 

From what I have read, Mike Davis has been chomping at the bit to roll back the ball/equipment. I know he is leaving at the end of 2021, but I wouldn't be surprised if a decision is handed down before he leaves. 

I don't believe that the US Open results will change anything.  One player was under par.  One. These results wont, or shouldn't change the plans of the Ruling Bodies.  The report did NOT follow the " Mike Davis" line, and I don't believe his impending retirement will change that.  If anything, his lame duck status will diminish his influence.

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8 hours ago, mahonie said:

 

Should it be a rules issue though? Aren’t the more wealthy gaining an advantage in the same way that those who anchored their putters were gaining an advantage?

I use a claw grip when putting which gives me an advantage.  Should that be outlawed?  Some folks are members of very nice private country clubs with great practice facilities and instructors.  Should they be prevented from playing competitively because this gives them an advantage?

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What most people don't realize is that there is a special drink that comes in small bottles and is only available to Tour pros. Not only do you get 20-30 yards more distance, but your eyesight is improved so much that you can literally see the break of every putt. That's why so many putts on tour just graze the hole.

 

Now, I could explain the formula, but I've been sworn to secrecy, since it's used by the CIA to enhance physical awareness by agents, and I can't talk about that. Hold on, there's someone at the door...

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bought out by private equity.

capitalization, grammar and reasoning slashed as a cost reduction.

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Folks seem to have a short memory! I recall a guy who burst onto the scene with awesome power, blowing by everyone else and winning majors by being the only player shooting under par! Remember him? Bomb and gouge, knocked the ball all over the place, seldom could find the fairway, everyone was up in arms that these young studs were making courses obsolete. I'm sure Jack didn't care when he was blowing past everyone with his power. I'm sure Tiger didn't care when he was blowing past everybody. What was the cure to this evil? Change the grooves on irons, sure that will do it, make it so they can't spin the ball as much out of the rough. Well, we see how that worked out! But then again, the manufacturers made lots of money when most folks "had" to go out buy clubs like the pros were playing! The biggest problem seems to be folks loved Tiger when he changed the game playing bomb and gouge golf, but unfortunately folks don't seem to like Bryson, his peers on tour seem to hate him, going so far(McElroy) as to accuse I'm of cheating. Kick their a** Bryson, kick em hard! Seems current day golfers have resorted to crying and complaining when they get ran off the course! 

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17 hours ago, storm319 said:


Example, several years ago a family member’s small, low-middle class private club decided to adopt the one ball condition and condition of competition for their club championship. This forced players to buy new equipment that conformed from a groove standpoint in order to compete. While it was not the USGAs intent for this to apply at this type of level until 2024, they created this mess with this unnecessary rollback that has had little to no impact on Tour.

They don't have to play at that PRIVATE club. They can play anywhere they want. A private club can adopt any idiotic rules they want related to golf or not. That the club's problem. Your family member isn't forced to play or belong there. 

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7 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Whoa, whoa, whoa.  Roughly 300-400 pros have access to "tour only" equipment.  Am gains 40 yards from a "Tour" shaft.  And you don't think equipment manufacturers wouldn't be all over this.  What's holding them back form selling $$$ shafts that guarantee 40 yards in one fitting.  Something seems amiss.

You tell me

Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
Callaway XR Speed 3W Project X HZRDUS T800 65 Stiff
Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
Cobra King CB/MB Flow 4-6, 7-PW C-Taper Stiff or Mizuno MP4 4-PW
Vokey SM8 52/58; MD Golf 56
Radius Classic 8

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8 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

I use a claw grip when putting which gives me an advantage.  Should that be outlawed?  Some folks are members of very nice private country clubs with great practice facilities and instructors.  Should they be prevented from playing competitively because this gives them an advantage?

That’s not an equipment rules issue though is it?

Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Fubuki ZT Stiff
Callaway XR Speed 3W Project X HZRDUS T800 65 Stiff
Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 21* Hybrid Aldila RIP Stiff
Cobra King CB/MB Flow 4-6, 7-PW C-Taper Stiff or Mizuno MP4 4-PW
Vokey SM8 52/58; MD Golf 56
Radius Classic 8

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4 hours ago, mahonie said:

That’s not an equipment rules issue though is it?

No, but they are advantages that were obtained through wealth or personal idiosyncracy just like perfectly fit tour equipment, premium urethane covered balls, or anchored putting styles (which should have never been banned).

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13 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

What most people don't realize is that there is a special drink that comes in small bottles and is only available to Tour pros. Not only do you get 20-30 yards more distance, but your eyesight is improved so much that you can literally see the break of every putt. That's why so many putts on tour just graze the hole.

 

Now, I could explain the formula, but I've been sworn to secrecy, since it's used by the CIA to enhance physical awareness by agents, and I can't talk about that. Hold on, there's someone at the door...

Can confirm.  Operation Orgain has been active for about a year now.  They're still tweaking the chemical formula, trying to make the effects longer lasting.  The current half-life is so short, players have to drink it at very short intervals to maintain peak effect, even during post round interviews.

 

They cleverly disguised it as chocolate milk, which has caused problems with kids drinking it mistakenly.  My 8-year old son got into some last week, told me he was moving to Vegas, and that I was "going to have to be the man of the house now."

 

 

iu-37.jpeg.83ef34ae0ecdf9763f9d433a92038144.jpeg

Edited by Kilo1545
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On 9/25/2020 at 8:10 PM, OrangeGravy said:

I've never given the USGA one penny, so I don't really care what they do, but what changes have they made that had any bearing on amateurs? Amateurs always have been and always will be able to use whatever they want. High level Am golfers are Am's in name only and they constitute a small % of Am golfers

 

I am in no way a high level am, but play in 30+ competitions per year under the governing body rules. I suspect the majority of 'club' golfer are in the same boat as pretty much any organised competition is under R and A /USGA rules. 

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1 hour ago, Kilo1545 said:

Can confirm.  Operation Orgain has been active for about a year now.  They're still tweaking the chemical formula, trying to make the effects longer lasting.  The current half-life is so short, players have to drink it at very short intervals to maintain peak effect, even during post round interviews.

 

They cleverly disguised it as chocolate milk, which has caused problems with kids drinking it mistakenly.  My 8-year old son got into some last week, told me he was moving to Vegas, and that I was "going to have to be the man of the house now."

 

 

iu-37.jpeg.83ef34ae0ecdf9763f9d433a92038144.jpeg

 

 

Come on, do people really believe this kind of stuff?  Someone sells a magical drink that gives you 20-30 yards of extra distance and eye sight that magically let's you read greens perfectly?  LOL.  You guys are hilarious and obviously joking.

 

He's drinking a protein shake.  And frankly he drinks too many of them and will probably jack up his kidneys. 

 

1. You hit the ball further from swinging faster and maximizing launch / spin.

2. The pros know all the pin positions before the tournament week starts, and test and document every single break from every side and angle so they know EXACTLY what it does.  They are also good enough to hit the ball to the spot they want to putt from.

 

 

Edited by jons1
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----------------
Golf Jobs
Driver: Titleist TS3 9.5 w/ Tensei Blue 55 S
3W: Titleist 915F 15 w/ Diamana D+ 80 S
3H: Titleist 915H 21 w/ Diamana D+ 90 S
Irons: 4-GW Titleist T100 w/ Project X LZ 6.0
Wedge: Vokey SM8 54.10S TC w/ Project X LZ 6.0

Wedge: Vokey SM8 60.04L TC w/ Project X LZ 6.0
Ball: 2021 Titleist ProV1

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How much practice do tour pros get at any given course?  Would it make sense to bar any tour pros from an event course for a set amount of time beforehand so they're going in blind?

What's In The Bag?

Srixon Z565 Driver, 4W, 4H

Ping G400 5-U

Kirkland Sig Wedges

Odyssey White Hot Putter

Hyundai Equus Alignment Sticks

KSig balls for now - in search of something new

 

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On 9/27/2020 at 1:55 AM, storm319 said:


Example, several years ago a family member’s small, low-middle class private club decided to adopt the one ball condition and condition of competition for their club championship. This forced players to buy new equipment that conformed from a groove standpoint in order to compete. While it was not the USGAs intent for this to apply at this type of level until 2024, they created this mess with this unnecessary rollback that has had little to no impact on Tour.

 

Honestly how many would have been affected? Maybe some with wedges needed to be replaced. How many sets of irons were manufactured in the noughties that were non conforming? I may have had one set, Bridgestone J33 combos, but after that I think they were all legal. The one ball isn't a big deal, for one tournament, just buy a dozen or two of your favourite ball and be done with it. How many players actually use non-conforming balls?

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5 hours ago, Mudguard said:

 

Honestly how many would have been affected? Maybe some with wedges needed to be replaced. How many sets of irons were manufactured in the noughties that were non conforming? I may have had one set, Bridgestone J33 combos, but after that I think they were all legal. The one ball isn't a big deal, for one tournament, just buy a dozen or two of your favourite ball and be done with it. How many players actually use non-conforming balls?


Remember that the groove rule went into effect in 2010 and most of the iron sets from Ping, Callaway, and TaylorMade from the 2000s did not meet the new spec (most failed the groove radius regulation which was a bit unrealistic for the OEMs to meet). My family member from this example along with several other members ended up having to buy new irons and wedges in order to compete while others simply didn’t enter. Again this rule was not meant to be applied at this level until more than a decade later but ultimately the club caved due to the urging of a couple of ornery “get off my lawn” members that had no chance of contending.
 

The one ball ruling while not as big of an impact also was not meant to be applied at that level either. It also is not just about conformance as the list only includes submissions to the USGA from the past 12 months (if a tour player is still playing an older model, the OEM has to resubmit it for testing which is really unnecessary IMHO). Ultimately there are a ton of past models that conform that are not on the list and therefor not useable in competition where the condition is applied. Not a big deal for the tour players that have OEM support, but could be a problem for an amateur that has to pay for their own balls. Again, an unnecessary regulation. 

 

Ultimately I am frustrated with people downplaying the volume of unintended negative impact when a regulation fails to meet its intended goal (the groove rollback has had no material impact at the highest level that it was intended to reign in).

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5 hours ago, puttingmatt said:

What's coming next ? I suspect less membership with the USGA and the R&A .


I predict that they will eventually be the cause of their own demise as organizations (their arrogant approach to regulation is not especially wise for organizations whose revenue is primarily dependent on a single annual event and secondarily dependent on membership that they continue to ignore).

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On 9/26/2020 at 12:32 PM, mahonie said:

 

 

I agree that the rules are not bifurcated but the disparity in performance between what is available to pros and elite amateurs and to the rest of us they might as well be.

 

My mate won a Cobra competition a few years back where part of the prize was to be fitted by the Euro Tour fitter with a full ‘tour experience.’ He’s a good player and was off 6 at the time. Using the standard off the shelf shaft offerings, he was getting 260 yard carry with his usual good dispersion. Fitter reckoned he could do better than that and popped out to the tour truck. Came back with some non-retail, Tour only Graphite Design shaft. First shot carried 283 yards, then consistently 285-290 in an 8 yard wide channel. We looked for that shaft everywhere on the internet and it’s nowhere. Unless you are ‘Staff’ you are not getting access to all the goodies.

 

Pros equipment is manufactured to the limits of the regulations, not like ours where tolerances are built-in. Schauffele kicked off when his driver was found to be non-conforming at the Open last year. Not because his driver was faulty, but because there were another 100 players in the field whose drivers hadn’t been tested and could have been non-conforming and gaining an advantage.

 

The pros may be playing to the same rules but they’re not ‘playing’ to the same rules. Call that privilege or whatever you like, but they are playing a different branch of the game to the rest of us.

So, the reality is he was fit properly by someone who knew what they were doing instead of just buying “off the rack”

 

Most of the “tour only” stuff is limited introductions that filter into custom builds just a little after they are introduced on tour

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11 minutes ago, storm319 said:


Remember that the groove rule went into effect in 2010 and most of the iron sets from Ping, Callaway, and TaylorMade from the 2000s did not meet the new spec (most failed the groove radius regulation which was a bit unrealistic for the OEMs to meet). My family member from this example along with several other members ended up having to buy new irons and wedges in order to compete while others simply didn’t enter. Again this rule was not meant to be applied at this level until more than a decade later but ultimately the club caved due to the urging of a couple of ornery “get off my lawn” members that had no chance of contending.
 

 

How did they police it? Honestly I've got no idea when companies started conforming. I only know of one set of my irons that didn't meet the rule and also my SM3s (?) I think. I'd love to see what happened if someone had rocked up to the first tee with my J33s and see if they googled a list. Or measured it! Yes I know in theory you are supposed to play with conforming clubs, but I'd argue most people would only suspect their wedges. And for the ball, you'd simply say, well this is a 2020 Pro V. Are they going to say sorry that's a 2019, you can't use it?

NB as far as I know here in New Zealand the groove rule only applies to professional events (with amateurs playing) and the three big amateur comps.

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4 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

 

How did they police it? Honestly I've got no idea when companies started conforming. I only know of one set of my irons that didn't meet the rule and also my SM3s (?) I think. I'd love to see what happened if someone had rocked up to the first tee with my J33s and see if they googled a list. Or measured it! Yes I know in theory you are supposed to play with conforming clubs, but I'd argue most people would only suspect their wedges. And for the ball, you'd simply say, well this is a 2020 Pro V. Are they going to say sorry that's a 2019, you can't use it?

NB as far as I know here in New Zealand the groove rule only applies to professional events (with amateurs playing) and the three big amateur comps.


From what I remember they verified models at check on vs the USGA list although they apparently made a point to communicate often ahead of the event. Not sure if they verified balls, but they did communicate ahead of time that side stamps needed to be on the USGA list. 
 

As to which events the condition applies to, it was only intended to be used for pro events effective 1/1/2010, high level amateur events effective 1/1/2014, and globally 1/1/2024, but as an optional local competition it is at the discretion of the hosting committee (given that NZ is under R&A jurisdiction, the same applies).

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On 9/23/2020 at 1:52 PM, 2bGood said:

What are you taking about? Swimming rolled back the suits because they allowed swimmers to go faster. Golf is talking about rolling back the ball/driver as they allow golfers to hit further. It is exactly the same.

No, it is not.

Rolling the tech back in golf is about keeping golf course size manageable. Smaller courses are better for many reasons. Once scaled back, the longest hitters will still be the longest.

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10 hours ago, storm319 said:


From what I remember they verified models at check on vs the USGA list although they apparently made a point to communicate often ahead of the event. Not sure if they verified balls, but they did communicate ahead of time that side stamps needed to be on the USGA list. 
 

As to which events the condition applies to, it was only intended to be used for pro events effective 1/1/2010, high level amateur events effective 1/1/2014, and globally 1/1/2024, but as an optional local competition it is at the discretion of the hosting committee (given that NZ is under R&A jurisdiction, the same applies).

Its hard for me to blame the R&A (or USGA) for the actions of a local club's committee, especially when that action goes against the recommendations of the R&A/USGA.  Separately, you don't say when this occurred.  If it was in 2015, the club was even more off-base.  If it was 2020, the club was still out of line, but I would have been really surprised if most players hadn't replaced their clubs sometime in the past 10 years.

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31 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Its hard for me to blame the R&A (or USGA) for the actions of a local club's committee, especially when that action goes against the recommendations of the R&A/USGA.  Separately, you don't say when this occurred.  If it was in 2015, the club was even more off-base.  If it was 2020, the club was still out of line, but I would have been really surprised if most players hadn't replaced their clubs sometime in the past 10 years.


It was 2012. The USGA created the situation where this could happen (not sure if you remember but there was a lot of confusion early on) and ultimately this regulation did not accomplish their goals at the highest level. Many have extremely low confidence that the governing bodies will not end up doing the same with a future rollback where this debate will indefinitely continue.

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1 hour ago, storm319 said:


It was 2012. The USGA created the situation where this could happen (not sure if you remember but there was a lot of confusion early on) and ultimately this regulation did not accomplish their goals at the highest level. Many have extremely low confidence that the governing bodies will not end up doing the same with a future rollback where this debate will indefinitely continue.

Again, the USGA clearly said all along that groove requirements for play did not go into effect until 2024.  The rule was announced in 2008, starting in 2010 manufacturers were required to produce only groove-compliant clubs.  The groove rule went into effect (by Condition of Competition) for the US Open, the Women's US Open, and the Senior US Open in 2010.  For the remainder of USGA events, the rule didn't go into effect until 2014.  That a club's committee foolishly decided to adopt a model local rule twelve years early is clearly the responsibility of the committee, not the Ruling Bodies.

I'm not here to claim that the groove rule is a great positive thing, but the responsibility for this particular problem lies squarely with the club.

Edited by davep043
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I guess I look at the groove rule differently than others.  I didn't rush out to buy new clubs due to it.  I don't care that it didn't have the desired effect.  I guess I view it as that likely being the case when you implement a rule with such a small potential impact.

 

Maybe that is the problem?  The USGA and R&A are attempting to eat the "distance elephant" one bite at a time so as to not impact golfers as much.  Maybe just the opposite needs to happen, a true threshold shift and let the pieces fall where they may.  I don't know what that would look like but I bet it still probably would not have an effect on how I go about playing and enjoying the game.

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5 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Again, the USGA clearly said all along that groove requirements for play did not go into effect until 2024.  The rule was announced in 2008, starting in 2010 manufacturers were required to produce only groove-compliant clubs.  The groove rule went into effect (by Condition of Competition) for the US Open, the Women's US Open, and the Senior US Open in 2010.  For the remainder of USGA events, the rule didn't go into effect until 2014.  That a club's committee foolishly decided to adopt a model local rule twelve years early is clearly the responsibility of the committee, not the Ruling Bodies.

I'm not here to claim that the groove rule is a great positive thing, but the responsibility for this particular problem lies squarely with the club.

 

Agree to disagree I guess. IMHO the creators of the rule also deserve some of the responsibility (no rule, no problem). The other ridiculous part of all of this was the USGAs unwillingness to make a decision on conformance of certain submissions (ATR designation is ridiculous, it either conforms or it doesn't). 

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2 minutes ago, storm319 said:

 

Agree to disagree I guess. IMHO the creators of the rule also deserve some of the responsibility (no rule, no problem). The other ridiculous part of all of this was the USGAs unwillingness to make a decision on conformance of certain submissions (ATR designation is ridiculous, it either conforms or it doesn't). 

We will disagree, this private club made the equipment requirements for in-house competitions more stringent than the US Amateur (mens and womens), the US Junior Amateur (boys and girls), the US Mid-Amateur (men's and womens), the US Senior Amateur (mens and womens), US Publinks, etc.  The USGA had the good sense NOT to apply the groove rule in those events, the club didn't have similar good sense.  That's just stupid.

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