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Turf interaction in irons - suggestions?


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Hi guys 

 

So I bought a set of Ben Hogan icon irons in August and I am loving them. They look fantastic and feel amazing but they have given me about 10 yards of extra distance compared to any of my other sets I had previously. The lofts are the same to my previous set and shafts I had before.

 

My thinking is that it must be the v-sole that lets me retain ballspeed. I take shallow divots and these must be exiting without loosing any speed. 
 

Any thoughts on that and any suggestions on other iron sets with a sole that would have the same effect as I am in need of another set at my vacation home?

 

sorry for the long post 

[i][font=times new roman,times,serif][size=2]Driver: Mizuno st180 - Diamana Bf60x[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=times new roman,times,serif][size=2]3 wood: Callaway rogue sz - GD Tour AD-DI 7x[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=times new roman,times,serif][size=2]Hybrid: Callaway Rogue 19* - GD Tour AD-DI 85x ---Testing Srixon H85 veylix rome 988x[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=times new roman,times,serif][size=2]2-Iron: PXG 0311x extreme dark - KBS Tour prototype hybrid 95s+[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=times new roman,times,serif][size=2]Irons: Mizuno JPX919 Tour 5-pw - Project x lz 6.5[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=times new roman,times,serif][size=2]Wedges: Mizuno T7 52&58 - KBS Custom Black Wedge shafts[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=times new roman,times,serif][size=2]Putter: Toulon Atlanta Garage All black[/size][/font][/i]

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That is true for a single shot taken in isolation. But we don't hit single shots we hit lots of them and the turf interaction on THIS shot can definitely affect how you swing on the NEXT shot. And the

Sole design and grind wont give you added ball speed on good strikes. When you strike it well, the ball has already compressed and leaving the face before the club hits the turf. Now it can be more fo

As somebody else suggested, look at Srixon for V-sole. I put Z785s into play around this time last year and they are the best irons through the turf I have ever played.

41 minutes ago, iNeedMoreGolf said:

Im visting az... just played tpc stadium course... had choice of clubs to rent... tryed titleist. The t300 were too fat at the bottom and caused fat shots....my gamers are mizuno mmc 20... whole different ball park... left alot on the table today... wish i had my set today... course was unreal though.


The set I had before the hogans where the mp20 Mac and I loved them but I tended to get caught in the grass as Mizuno have a sharp leading edge. When I was custom fitting the mmc’s on a matt I was getting great numbers but on the grass I was back to my “normal” numbers. The Hogan gives me those numbers from the grass.

[i][font=times new roman,times,serif][size=2]Driver: Mizuno st180 - Diamana Bf60x[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=times new roman,times,serif][size=2]3 wood: Callaway rogue sz - GD Tour AD-DI 7x[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=times new roman,times,serif][size=2]Hybrid: Callaway Rogue 19* - GD Tour AD-DI 85x ---Testing Srixon H85 veylix rome 988x[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=times new roman,times,serif][size=2]2-Iron: PXG 0311x extreme dark - KBS Tour prototype hybrid 95s+[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=times new roman,times,serif][size=2]Irons: Mizuno JPX919 Tour 5-pw - Project x lz 6.5[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=times new roman,times,serif][size=2]Wedges: Mizuno T7 52&58 - KBS Custom Black Wedge shafts[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=times new roman,times,serif][size=2]Putter: Toulon Atlanta Garage All black[/size][/font][/i]

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3 hours ago, MizunoMade said:

Hi guys 

 

So I bought a set of Ben Hogan icon irons in August and I am loving them. They look fantastic and feel amazing but they have given me about 10 yards of extra distance compared to any of my other sets I had previously. The lofts are the same to my previous set and shafts I had before.

 

My thinking is that it must be the v-sole that lets me retain ballspeed. I take shallow divots and these must be exiting without loosing any speed. 
 

Any thoughts on that and any suggestions on other iron sets with a sole that would have the same effect as I am in need of another set at my vacation home?

 

sorry for the long post 

Sole design and grind wont give you added ball speed on good strikes. When you strike it well, the ball has already compressed and leaving the face before the club hits the turf. Now it can be more forgiving through the turf on slightly fat shots, and retain some speed.

 

as far as other irons with v sole, srixon has the most prominent v sole, and are well known for it. Titleist also has v sole but its very subtle, and they call it “leading edge relief” but its essentially the same concept on a smaller scale.

Edited by Red4282
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1 minute ago, Red4282 said:

Sole design and grind wont give you added ball speed on good strikes. When you strike it well, the ball has already compressed and leaving the face before the club hits the turf. Now it can be more forgiving through the turf on slightly fat shots, and retain some speed.

That is true for a single shot taken in isolation. But we don't hit single shots we hit lots of them and the turf interaction on THIS shot can definitely affect how you swing on the NEXT shot. And the one after that and the one after that and so on.

 

A sole design and grind can make impact feel so bad that without realizing it we hold back a little and try to make perfect contact rather than swinging freely and making a full release through the ball. Or looking at it the other way, when shot after shot you feel crisp contact you'll be freed up to make good aggressive swings. 

 

It's a feedback loop between the way the club interacts with the turf and the way we swing. If a club's sole doesn't suit us, it becomes a negative feedback loop and we lose distance and control. If a club's sole is absolutely perfect for us, it's a positive feedback loop.

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1 hour ago, North Butte said:

That is true for a single shot taken in isolation. But we don't hit single shots we hit lots of them and the turf interaction on THIS shot can definitely affect how you swing on the NEXT shot. And the one after that and the one after that and so on.

 

A sole design and grind can make impact feel so bad that without realizing it we hold back a little and try to make perfect contact rather than swinging freely and making a full release through the ball. Or looking at it the other way, when shot after shot you feel crisp contact you'll be freed up to make good aggressive swings. 

 

It's a feedback loop between the way the club interacts with the turf and the way we swing. If a club's sole doesn't suit us, it becomes a negative feedback loop and we lose distance and control. If a club's sole is absolutely perfect for us, it's a positive feedback loop.

Fair point, i have an experience of my own that kind of speaks to that in some sense. I was in some srixons and they really like to be hit with a steep angle of attack. Was struggling with distance on the short irons due even though my chs was normal. Poor smash. I had gotten so steep, the ball was rear of center just to make good contact. Switched to mizunos and the thinner lower bounce soles, instantly shallowed out my angle of attack, efficiency came up, distance came up, even though i wasnt swinging any faster. Im pretty positive i adjusted swing to my club design, and that was the result. 

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5 hours ago, MizunoMade said:

Hi guys 

 

So I bought a set of Ben Hogan icon irons in August and I am loving them. They look fantastic and feel amazing but they have given me about 10 yards of extra distance compared to any of my other sets I had previously. The lofts are the same to my previous set and shafts I had before.

 

My thinking is that it must be the v-sole that lets me retain ballspeed. I take shallow divots and these must be exiting without loosing any speed. 
 

Any thoughts on that and any suggestions on other iron sets with a sole that would have the same effect as I am in need of another set at my vacation home?

 

sorry for the long post 

 

As somebody else suggested, look at Srixon for V-sole. I put Z785s into play around this time last year and they are the best irons through the turf I have ever played.

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Cobra SZ 9* : Ventus Blue 6-S

Cobra F9 Tour 4W : Tour AD TP 8-S

Cobra ForgedTec 3-iron : Nippon Modus3 105-S

Srixon Z785 4-PW : Nippon Modus3 120-S

Cleveland RTX3 50, 54, 58 : Nippon 115-S Wedge

Piretti Potenza 370g : Breakthrough Technology Stability Shaft - 34"

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5 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

As somebody else suggested, look at Srixon for V-sole. I put Z785s into play around this time last year and they are the best irons through the turf I have ever played.

I agree with this. The srixons are some of my favorite irons for the exact reasons you mention with respect to the Hogan’s. Like you, I picked up distance, and more surprisingly, directional accuracy that I largely attributed to the sole grind. I believe the grind genuinely helped my game because it eliminated nearly all resistance from the turf. The result was a more relaxed and confident swing, as well as more consistent results. I’ve never had so many Iron shots fly directly at the flag.  

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I have a set of four Cleveland CBX wedges, the CBX2 PW and GW have a version of the Srixon V-sole grind while my SW and LW are the CBX Full Face. After decades of figuring nothing could work better than Vokeys for me, I'm a total convert to CBX. The same things people are saying about the Srixon irons applies to my PW and GW, on full swings they just take a little shallow divot while feeling almost like I've picked them clean. And I know where the ball is going before I even look up and see it. 

 

You can even hear the difference in contact. I'm not a good golfer or a particularly good wedge player but a couple of times lately I've hit a  90-100 yard wedge shot and somebody I'm playing with has said, "Wow, that sounded so good". It took me a while to stop being surprised to see a real divot after such a crisp-feeling shot. With F-grind Vokeys that crisp feel and sound only came from picking the ball. 

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Sole design is irrelevant.  Unless you hit the ball fat the ball has already left the clubface by the time it hits the turf.   Here's a close up of Tiger hitting a stinger.

 

 

10.5 deg Titleist 905R with stock UST Proforce V2 Shaft
1999 Ben Hogan Apex Blades (3-PW) with stock Apex 4 Steel Shafts
Taylormade V-Steel 5W & 3W with Grafalloy Prolaunch Red shafts
Taylormade ATV wedges in 54 and 58 degrees with stock steel shafts
Rife Island Series Aruba Blade Putter

 

"Loft for loft, length for length, and shaft for shaft, the ball will go the same distance when hit on the sweet spot regardless how old the iron."

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1 minute ago, Red4282 said:

Irrelevant is strong. Why so many sole grinds on wedges, if they dont matter?

Last time I checked, you need to intentionally it the ball fat in a bunker and some flop shots.  Sole grind does matter in that case.  

10.5 deg Titleist 905R with stock UST Proforce V2 Shaft
1999 Ben Hogan Apex Blades (3-PW) with stock Apex 4 Steel Shafts
Taylormade V-Steel 5W & 3W with Grafalloy Prolaunch Red shafts
Taylormade ATV wedges in 54 and 58 degrees with stock steel shafts
Rife Island Series Aruba Blade Putter

 

"Loft for loft, length for length, and shaft for shaft, the ball will go the same distance when hit on the sweet spot regardless how old the iron."

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17 minutes ago, cgasucks said:

Sole design is irrelevant.  Unless you hit the ball fat the ball has already left the clubface by the time it hits the turf.   Here's a close up of Tiger hitting a stinger.

 

 

That is true for a single shot taken in isolation. But we don't hit single shots we hit lots of them and the turf interaction on THIS shot can definitely affect how you swing on the NEXT shot. And the one after that and the one after that and so on.

 

A sole design and grind can make impact feel so bad that without realizing it we hold back a little and try to make perfect contact rather than swinging freely and making a full release through the ball. Or looking at it the other way, when shot after shot you feel crisp contact you'll be freed up to make good aggressive swings. 

 

It's a feedback loop between the way the club interacts with the turf and the way we swing. If a club's sole doesn't suit us, it becomes a negative feedback loop and we lose distance and control. If a club's sole is absolutely perfect for us, it's a positive feedback loop.

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Imagine a ball sitting just a half-inch in front of a buried tree root. You don't realize the root is there so you just make a normal swing. The ball comes out fine but you injure your hand and wrist and can't swing a golf club for a month.

 

The next time you encounter a ball sitting a half-inch in front of a tree root, do you think you'll make a normal swing? After all the ball will again be gone before the club reaches the root so you can hit a normal shot. Or might you hold back a little because you don't want to break your hand again?

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Sole design is not irrelevant. A player with no shaft lean and shallow AOA hitting a high bounce club like a v grind, Will tend to strike the face low, otherwise he will start drop kicking. A player with alot of lean and a steep AOa can hit the ball higher up on the face naturally, as the bounce has been taken out of the equation. As a matter of fact, if you ask most pros, this is probably one of the most important features they look for in a head design.

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From reading the original post the user is trying to see if he can get any faster clubhead speed (thus ball speed) from a different sole design.  That is irrelevant BUT the different sole designs are there to help the player deal with the interaction with the turf AFTER the ball is struck.  I personally would love to have a V-Sole in my irons to have a more shallower divot.

10.5 deg Titleist 905R with stock UST Proforce V2 Shaft
1999 Ben Hogan Apex Blades (3-PW) with stock Apex 4 Steel Shafts
Taylormade V-Steel 5W & 3W with Grafalloy Prolaunch Red shafts
Taylormade ATV wedges in 54 and 58 degrees with stock steel shafts
Rife Island Series Aruba Blade Putter

 

"Loft for loft, length for length, and shaft for shaft, the ball will go the same distance when hit on the sweet spot regardless how old the iron."

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1 hour ago, iNeedMoreGolf said:

Personally... i hit the ball fat here and there... so sole design come in handy very much for me sometimes. I played one par three it was 155... hit a 7 iron caught it slightly chunky but still ended up with a mid ball flight that not only made the green but was 6 feet from pin... i was ?

I do hit better good shots (i.e. better results from good swings) with medium width soles. But I get better results from poor swings with very wide soles like Ping G-series or even the all-hybrid sets like Cleveland HB or Cobra T-Rail. It's a trade-off for sure.

 

The really wide-soled irons seem to produce a mid-trajectory, fairly low spin shot on both really good swings and fairly poor ones. It's a bit of a mystery why a less wide sole helps me hit it higher with more spin (on good swings). But it definitely does. 

 

In the end. I make sooooo many poor swings I have to use the wide soles. And I'm OK with that. It just seems funny when I pull my old Titleist irons out of the closet for a round or two I hit a few of these amazing high short-iron shots that stop on a dime even though they are truly harder-to-hit clubs. 

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If sole design was irrelevant, then we'd all hit from fairway bunkers with the same ease we do from the fairway. (or hardpan, whatever...) 99.9% of us cannot claim this to be the case.

 

Sure a perfect strike hits only the ball first. Even Tiger isn't perfect and I've seen plenty of super slow mo shots of pros where the club does, in fact, come in with an ever so slight amount of grass-before-ball contact. Not truly "fat" by any stretch, but the effect is definitely there. 

Edited by dubbelbogey
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1 hour ago, Red4282 said:

Sole design is not irrelevant. A player with no shaft lean and shallow AOA hitting a high bounce club like a v grind, Will tend to strike the face low, otherwise he will start drop kicking. A player with alot of lean and a steep AOa can hit the ball higher up on the face naturally, as the bounce has been taken out of the equation. As a matter of fact, if you ask most pros, this is probably one of the most important features they look for in a head design.

I never put much weight into it, until I hit a friends clubs and noticed it. At the time I had only played 5 types of Mizuno blades preceded by old Hogan Apex’s from the 92. 
 

this brought to mind Danny Lee using NOS Mizuno Mp32’s from Luke Donald 

http://www.golfwrx.com/546076/danny-lees-mizuno-mp-32-irons-the-real-inside-scoop/

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22 hours ago, cgasucks said:

From reading the original post the user is trying to see if he can get any faster clubhead speed (thus ball speed) from a different sole design.  That is irrelevant BUT the different sole designs are there to help the player deal with the interaction with the turf AFTER the ball is struck.  I personally would love to have a V-Sole in my irons to have a more shallower divot.

    Would the Titleist 962 irons have the sole grind you are talking about?

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35 minutes ago, jplroper said:

    Would the Titleist 962 irons have the sole grind you are talking about?

Yes.  That is one of the reasons why they are so talked about till this day.  Please correct me if I'm wrong but Titleist have never made another iron with that sole grind till this day.  I have a set of 990s (which replaced the 962s) and they don't have that V grind.

10.5 deg Titleist 905R with stock UST Proforce V2 Shaft
1999 Ben Hogan Apex Blades (3-PW) with stock Apex 4 Steel Shafts
Taylormade V-Steel 5W & 3W with Grafalloy Prolaunch Red shafts
Taylormade ATV wedges in 54 and 58 degrees with stock steel shafts
Rife Island Series Aruba Blade Putter

 

"Loft for loft, length for length, and shaft for shaft, the ball will go the same distance when hit on the sweet spot regardless how old the iron."

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Edel irons have amazing turf interaction that they fit to your swing. Sadly they don't sell the variable length forged cavity back anymore. My home course has some fairways with small spots of bad common bermuda and an iron with the proper sole grind makes even those shots feel like a pured iron off zoysia where the sole floats right through either taking a thin divot or just scalping the grass. There is no comparison to my old MP-64s, it is an absolute confidence builder to know that if you put a halfway decent swing on the ball it will go about the right distance. Those dug in shots can really hang in your memory though a round and cause the dreaded skull that goes 50 yards over the green. A semi chunk rarely is a round killer but the skull over a green can easily cause a double or triple.

 

If you have a competent grinder at a shop in your area you can probably get him to tinker with an old club and come up with a grind that works well for you.

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1 hour ago, cgasucks said:

Yes.  That is one of the reasons why they are so talked about till this day.  Please correct me if I'm wrong but Titleist have never made another iron with that sole grind till this day.  I have a set of 990s (which replaced the 962s) and they don't have that V grind.

      I read an  article where they interviewed the designer of the 962, he said it was a unique design and they had not used it again.  Which Titleist iron did you prefer the 962 or the 990?

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2 hours ago, jplroper said:

      I read an  article where they interviewed the designer of the 962, he said it was a unique design and they had not used it again.  Which Titleist iron did you prefer the 962 or the 990?

The creator of the 962s also created the legendary 845s.  I have both the 845s and the 990s and the 845s to me are an all around safe choice for the average golfer.  The 990s feel slighty better but are more demanding.  I can't say for the 962s since I've never hit one.

Edited by cgasucks

10.5 deg Titleist 905R with stock UST Proforce V2 Shaft
1999 Ben Hogan Apex Blades (3-PW) with stock Apex 4 Steel Shafts
Taylormade V-Steel 5W & 3W with Grafalloy Prolaunch Red shafts
Taylormade ATV wedges in 54 and 58 degrees with stock steel shafts
Rife Island Series Aruba Blade Putter

 

"Loft for loft, length for length, and shaft for shaft, the ball will go the same distance when hit on the sweet spot regardless how old the iron."

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How's your height, landing angle descent, and holding power into the green?

Extra distance is awesome. But only if its in a usable way. Using the same shaft head to head doesn't always work, but usually will if there aren't dramatic differences in head type/lofts/MOI/etc from set to set. Looks like your shafts are pretty stout/low spin, so I am focusing in on spin levels here and maybe something changed with the swing? Coming into the ball flatter, by chance?

If you come in flatter, I suspect your spin went down and the distance is due to a lower spin level. If it holds the greens, use it and run with it!!

Edited by blueonblack
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Nobody disputes that on a cleanly struck iron shot from the fairway the club strikes ball then turf.


But again, we do not hit one shot. And the feedback from a club grabbing, digging, bouncing or otherwise improper interacting with the turf will absolutely 100% affect how we swing the next time and the time after that. Doesn't matter if we're a Tour player or a beginner, unpleasant turf interaction affects us. We're not robots just mechanically making the exact same, calibrated swings over an over. 

 

Also nobody should dispute that everyone, even the best players in the world, occasionally hit shots that are not ball then turf. Either on purpose (because of the lie or the shot being played) or accidentally due to a slight mishit. Turf interaction absolutely matters on those shots too.

 

If turf interaction mattered not at all, every iron ever made would have a dead flat, squared-off sole with no rocker, camber, bounce or leading edge contour. But they don't and it's because TURF INTERACTION MATTERS. 

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