Is it time to limit the length of drivers in the equipment rules?

[cval]

31 minutes ago, GSDriver said:

Longer shafts harder to control, so if someone has the skills to play 48" in competition good for them.

 

Lowest score still wins, so play whatever you want within the rules.

That is why it is just not just about length of Driver. As the head sweet spot gets bigger and the shafts get better it will be much easier to control a 50" driver. 

[Sean2]

27 minutes ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

As I recall, you're a tall guy, right?  You're exactly why drivers length shouldn't be limited.  It could be an unfair disadvantage for you and that would not be right.

Yes. 6'5" in stocking feet, with relatively short arms. I am beginning to believe that the USGA/R&A believe in ready, fire, aim, lol. 

[ThinkingPlus]

3 minutes ago, cval said:

That is why it is just not just about length of Driver. As the head sweet spot gets bigger and the shafts get better it will be much easier to control a 50" driver. 

If only a 50" driver were legal.  Sigh...

[cval]

3 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

If only a 50" driver were legal.  Sigh...

48" Driver 🙂

[ThinkingPlus]

Reducing the legal limit from 48" to 46" drops potential distance increase with driver due to equipment by ~4%.  This assumes one can swing a 48" club as efficiently as a 46" club.  Just wanted to make sure extra tall golfers in need of longer drivers know what their sacrifice for "the good of the game" is achieving.

[2bGood]

43 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Reducing the legal limit from 48" to 46" drops potential distance increase with driver due to equipment by ~4%.  This assumes one can swing a 48" club as efficiently as a 46" club.  Just wanted to make sure extra tall golfers in need of longer drivers know what their sacrifice for "the good of the game" is achieving.

I am surprised it is that high 4% would be a hell of a difference - 10-20 yards for the long hitters.

 

Tall guys shouldn't really be giving up anything unique. Allot of current fitting wisdom says height should not be factor in driver fitting the same way it is in iron fitting. It makes sense if you look into it. There is no need for a tall player to play a longer driver for instance DJ is 6'4" an plays 45.5"

[ThinkingPlus]

13 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I am surprised it is that high 4% would be a hell of a difference - 10-20 yards for the long hitters.

 

Tall guys shouldn't really be giving up anything unique. Allot of current fitting wisdom says height should not be factor in driver fitting the same way it is in iron fitting. It makes sense if you look into it. There is no need for a tall player to play a longer driver for instance DJ is 6'4" an plays 45.5"

It is just 48"/46".  That is the most it could be.  Probably less because the effective swing radius is most likely more than the club length.

 

Thinking more along the the lines of really tall players (> 6' 6"), but also applicable to the moderately tall with shorter arms.

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

I am surprised it is that high 4% would be a hell of a difference - 10-20 yards for the long hitters.

 

Tall guys shouldn't really be giving up anything unique. Allot of current fitting wisdom says height should not be factor in driver fitting the same way it is in iron fitting. It makes sense if you look into it. There is no need for a tall player to play a longer driver for instance DJ is 6'4" an plays 45.5"

True. But. I’m in similar boat to he and less than 45 inches feels like a 3 iron.  At one point I struggled with driver and tried to go shorter.  It made me hit it worse.  It took me a long time to figure out that 45.5 was actually a better fit.  I believe it has to do with lie angles etc.  I can hit a steel shaft 43 inch driver just fine too.  But cut a modern driver to 43 and I’m toe down with it.  

Edited February 12, 2021 by bladehunter

[2bGood]

53 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

True. But. I’m in similar boat to he and less than 45 inches feels like a 3 iron.  At one point I struggled with driver and tried to go shorter.  It made me hit it worse.  It took me a long time to figure out that 45.5 was actually a better fit.  I believe it has to do with lie angles etc.  I can hit a steel shaft 43 inch driver just fine too.  But cut a modern driver to 43 and I’m toe down with it.  

I smell some big sales coming on! If there really is a big market/desire the OEM would come up with on option for 46" drivers with more adjustable lie angle for taller/shorter players. 

[bladehunter]

19 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I smell some big sales coming on! If there really is a big market/desire the OEM would come up with on option for 46" drivers with more adjustable lie angle for taller/shorter players. 

I’d give it a whirl for sure.  

[2bGood]

On 2/12/2021 at 4:58 PM, bladehunter said:

I’d give it a whirl for sure.  

Form a fitting perspective shaft length is not an issue - it just a solution. If you adjust loft and lie correctly the driver could be the length of wedge (or more reasonably 3wood or 5wood). At any rate 46" driver should not ruin any tall peoples lives unless there are so tall they have to play all their clubs at 48"😄

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by 2bGood

[Nels55]

5 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

That gave me a good laugh.  Thanks...  FYI; my last private club was ten years back, and those numbers are so far off from what I experienced it's silly.  A minimalist course in CA is a muni where wkend green fees are around $30-$40, average is $65-$85, and upscale is $110-$200+.  Private clubs spend more.  Depending on how much water is on the course, Pump stations are 700k-1M alone, computerize sprinkling systems 800k-1.5M.  Today NOBODY builds a minimalist muni, least in CA.  Might find them in 4-season states out in the country.  

I play at privately owned public course in the Monterey Bay Area.  The course was built in the 60s and is low budget.  I have watched them build a couple of new tee boxes and also lengthen one tee box recently and the improvements cost them basically nothing as they have the equipment and the workers are there anyway.  Instead of running a weed whacker the guys are running the back hoe or the dump truck.  They moved a fair amount of dirt and the tee boxes are nice when finished.  LOL not a high end private course but we love it!

[sui generis]

8 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I play at privately owned public course in the Monterey Bay Area.  The course was built in the 60s and is low budget.  I have watched them build a couple of new tee boxes and also lengthen one tee box recently and the improvements cost them basically nothing as they have the equipment and the workers are there anyway.  Instead of running a weed whacker the guys are running the back hoe or the dump truck.  They moved a fair amount of dirt and the tee boxes are nice when finished.  LOL not a high end private course but we love it!

 

But, but . . . we have sworn testimony here that new tees cost a hundred grand each. 😉

[Nels55]

2 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

But, but . . . we have sworn testimony here that new tees cost a hundred grand each. 😉

Well, I would guess that it could cost $100k to build a tee box in some places, I honestly don't know.  The recent complete renovation of Poppy Hills GC cost ten million dollars and that included sand capping, drainage and a modern sprinkler system.  Pretty much a total rebuild along with a fair amount of redesign.  It does costs quite a bit more to play there than at my course...

[nsxguy]

6 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

That gave me a good laugh.  Thanks...  FYI; my last private club was ten years back, and those numbers are so far off from what I experienced it's silly.  A minimalist course in CA is a muni where wkend green fees are around $30-$40, average is $65-$85, and upscale is $110-$200+.  Private clubs spend more.  Depending on how much water is on the course, Pump stations are 700k-1M alone, computerize sprinkling systems 800k-1.5M.  Today NOBODY builds a minimalist muni, least in CA.  Might find them in 4-season states out in the country.  

 

You're absolutely welcome. Almost all of your posts give me a good laugh. Time I returned the favor I guess. 👍

 

That link I found is 17 years old but even if today it costs 10 TIMES as much now as it did(?) then that'd still be "only" 55K per tee. And that's for an upscale course.

 

But I keep forgetting. You don't provide any proof, real or imagined. You're only "evidence" is "Trust me".

 

OK, guess that solves that.

[oikos1]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Yes, as I "admitted" ,upfront, ongoing maintenance, is of course an added cost.

 

But you did say "100K to build" a tee box. That's why I asked about the sizing.

 

$100K each, to build 18 new tee boxes is almost $2M. Not nearly enough to build a great golf course but tee boxes ?

 

That sounded very high to me, especially if it's just a "single" tee box so of course I googled it. And found the chart below.

 

The article claims that for an UPSCALE course it's about $100K for 18, so about $5.5K per,,,,,,, and about a third of that for "only" an "average" course.

 

Now, I'll note right off that IS a 17 year old article and no doubt costs have gone up but,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Anywho, as you well know, if the customers want/require it ,the course owners will build it,,,,,,,,,, OR not,,,,,,,, as it affects their bottom line.

 

http://www.scottmacphersongolfdesign.com/media-releases-more/articles/the-cost-of-building-a-golf-course/

 

 

Construction Items	Minimalist Course	Average Course	Up-Scale Course
Mobilisation	10,000	35,000	75,000
Layout, Staking, Civils	10,000	30,000	120,000
Erosion Control	0	25,000	150,000
Clearing and Grubbing	3,000	35,000	280,000
Selective Clearing	0	54,000	240,000
Topsoil strip	40,000	150,000	300,000
Rock Blasting	0	15,000	150,000
Earthmoving	0	375,000	750,000
Shaping	75,000	150,000	300,000
Topsoil Replacement	40,000	150,000	240,000
Storm Drainage	10,000	75,000	500,000
Golf Drainage	20,000	100,000	150,000
Irrigation + Pumpstation	130,000	345,000	910,000
Greens (11,150 sq.m.)	36,000	190,000	600,000
Tees (11,150 sq.m.)	30,000	60,000	100,000
Bunkers	17,000	52,000	84,000
Cart paths	0	112,000	530,000
Seedbed Prep	50,000	95,000	125,000
Grassing (Seed/Sprigs)	50,000	120,000	110,000
Grassing (Sod)	0	50,000	200,000
BUILD TOTAL (US $)	521,000	2,218,000	5,814,000

 

Midwest semi-private course:  $10,000 per tee box tops.  I suppose $100,000 per tee box on the courses Pepper plays is a reality, but that is absolutely high end for sure...

[2bGood]

Based on the last few posts I think we confidently conclude building a tee box is somewhere between 'basically nothing' and $100,000.

 

 

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

15 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

You're absolutely welcome. Almost all of your posts give me a good laugh. Time I returned the favor I guess. 👍

 

That link I found is 17 years old but even if today it costs 10 TIMES as much now as it did(?) then that'd still be "only" 55K per tee. And that's for an upscale course.

 

But I keep forgetting. You don't provide any proof, real or imagined. You're only "evidence" is "Trust me".

 

OK, guess that solves that.

FACT, I do NOT have to provide PROOF nor do I care if you or others believe what I say.  Argue with someone else.

[sui generis]

The imperious don't wish to be called out. 🤭

[ThinkingPlus]

4 minutes ago, sui generis said:

The imperious don't wish to be called out. 🤭

Kind of throwing the USGA under the bus there... 😉

[Socrates]

18 hours ago, Nels55 said:

I play at privately owned public course in the Monterey Bay Area.  The course was built in the 60s and is low budget.  I have watched them build a couple of new tee boxes and also lengthen one tee box recently and the improvements cost them basically nothing as they have the equipment and the workers are there anyway.  Instead of running a weed whacker the guys are running the back hoe or the dump truck.  They moved a fair amount of dirt and the tee boxes are nice when finished.  LOL not a high end private course but we love it!

The cost will depend on whether they will build a tee-box to USGA specs.  Proper layering of materials, drainage, irrigation, etc...  Now if you just go and throw whatever soil materials you have kicking around, pile it up, flatten it out and toss some sod on it, I'm sure you can do it for a few $1000 or less.  Might be crappola, but it's a tee box. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Calling @BNGLwhat's your cost estimate to build a tee box at a average public course and high end pga tour caliber venue?

 

Asking for a friend 🙂

Edited February 13, 2021 by BlackDiamondPar5

[BNGL]

18 hours ago, Socrates said:

The cost will depend on whether they will build a tee-box to USGA specs.  Proper layering of materials, drainage, irrigation, etc...  Now if you just go and throw whatever soil materials you have kicking around, pile it up, flatten it out and toss some sod on it, I'm sure you can do it for a few $1000 or less.  Might be crappola, but it's a tee box. 

Please stop writing... There’s no such thing as a USGA spec tee box or fairway. The USGA green section only makes recommendations for greens construction. 

Edited February 14, 2021 by BNGL

[BNGL]

17 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

Calling @BNGLwhat's your cost estimate to build a tee box at a average public course and high end pga tour caliber venue?

 

Asking for a friend 🙂

Off the top of my head about 2.50 per square foot. That doesn’t include any extra work there may need to be done, clear trees, add irrigation, remove cart path etc.

Edited February 14, 2021 by BNGL

[Nels55]

On 2/13/2021 at 11:36 AM, Socrates said:

The cost will depend on whether they will build a tee-box to USGA specs.  Proper layering of materials, drainage, irrigation, etc...  Now if you just go and throw whatever soil materials you have kicking around, pile it up, flatten it out and toss some sod on it, I'm sure you can do it for a few $1000 or less.  Might be crappola, but it's a tee box. 

Sod?  Way too expensive, a little seed and then wait a while.  Crappola?  Could be but playable.  Actually the new tee boxes are often a bit better than some of the originals!

[llewol007]

Nope, no need. Do you see any of the guys on the long drive hitting tours sniffing a spot on the PGA or Korn ferry tour. Go ahead. use a 48" driver, Not every hole requires it for one and two, you have to equate that in your entire swing which could affect your iron play.

[2bGood]

On 5/5/2021 at 9:31 PM, llewol007 said:

Nope, no need. Do you see any of the guys on the long drive hitting tours sniffing a spot on the PGA or Korn ferry tour. Go ahead. use a 48" driver, Not every hole requires it for one and two, you have to equate that in your entire swing which could affect your iron play.

Check back in 10-20 years and we will see where this went. 

 

My point is - right now drivers longer than 46" are not a major issue, so why not limit it now when it would effect very few people. If the technology trend line continues, one day 48" will be standard. Way easier to be pre-emptive than roll things back later.

 

If the RB's had a time machine, I would assume they would go back in time and make some more equipment limitations that they never thought would matter 50 years ago. 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by 2bGood

[llewol007]

29 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Check back in 10-20 years and we will see where this went. 

 

My point is was right now drivers longer than 46" are not a major issue, so why not limit it now when it would effect very few people. If the technology trend line continues one day 48" will be standard. Way easier to be pre-emptive than roll things back later.

 

The the RB's had a time machine, I would assume they would go back in time and make some more equipment limitations that they never thought would matter 50 years ago. 

 

 

Probably true. 

[2bGood]

I guess I was ahead of the curve on this one. 

 

R & A proposal to limit drivers to 46"

[sui generis]

10 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

I guess I was ahead of the curve on this one. 

 

R & A proposal to limit drivers to 46"

 

I'm astonished that there are even TWO people (you and Michelson) who think this matters. 🙄