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Removing a Loose Impediment


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A player finds their ball in the general area (or in a bunker or penalty area) with a live insect on it. The insect doesn’t respond to waving or blowing or nudges. Not wishing to harm the creature with their next stroke, the player lifts it off with a tee. During the process of removing the insect, the tee touches, but doesn’t move the ball.

 

Interpretation “Loose Impediment/5 – . . . live insects on a ball are loose impediments.”

 

R15.1a tells us “Without penalty, a player may remove a loose impediment anywhere on or off the course, and may do so in any way (such as by using a hand or foot or a club or other equipment).”

 

However, R9.4b tells us “If the player  . . . deliberately touches his or her ball at rest  . . . the player gets one penalty stroke.”

 

In this case, may a player touch their ball at rest without penalty in the course of removing a live insect?

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It would seem to me that the key question in this case is was the touching of the ball deliberate or accidental.

If it was deliberate then I think a penalty should be assessed per the interpretations -

9.4b/1 – Ball Deliberately Touched but Not Moved Results in Penalty to Player

When the ball in play is deliberately touched by the player, even if it does not move, the player gets one penalty stroke under Rule 9.4b.

 

But would the result be different if the insect could be considered a dangerous animal?

 

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2 hours ago, sui generis said:

A player finds their ball in the general area (or in a bunker or penalty area) with a live insect on it. The insect doesn’t respond to waving or blowing or nudges. Not wishing to harm the creature with their next stroke, the player lifts it off with a tee. During the process of removing the insect, the tee touches, but doesn’t move the ball.

 

Interpretation “Loose Impediment/5 – . . . live insects on a ball are loose impediments.”

 

R15.1a tells us “Without penalty, a player may remove a loose impediment anywhere on or off the course, and may do so in any way (such as by using a hand or foot or a club or other equipment).”

 

However, R9.4b tells us “If the player  . . . deliberately touches his or her ball at rest  . . . the player gets one penalty stroke.”

 

In this case, may a player touch their ball at rest without penalty in the course of removing a live insect?

I like the question.
 

Presuming the player did not DELIBERATELY touch his ball during the removal, it seems like that specific rule was not violated.  Anyway, as I see it, as long as the ball didn’t move during the process, all should be good.

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2 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

I like the question.
 

Presuming the player did not DELIBERATELY touch his ball during the removal, it seems like that specific rule was not violated.  Anyway, as I see it, as long as the ball didn’t move during the process, all should be good.

 

I agree. IMO the Rule does not prevent accidental touching of the ball while moving LI's. And even further than that, IMO even a deliberate touching in such a case would be ok, as sometimes one needs to place the tee (or similar) between the ball and the insect and it is inevitable that the tee touches the ball.

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4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I agree. IMO the Rule does not prevent accidental touching of the ball while moving LI's. And even further than that, IMO even a deliberate touching in such a case would be ok, as sometimes one needs to place the tee (or similar) between the ball and the insect and it is inevitable that the tee touches the ball.

Without a specific RB ruling, I don't think there is any Rules authority to deliberately touch that ball, even if the objective is to remove an insect.

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This is not a hypothetical. Those of you who've played a yellow ball will know that it's often a magnet for insects, most often the winged variety but sometimes the land based. If the player, in an honest effort to remove a live insect pokes a tee under the thing and touches the ball in the process, who's to say it was a deliberate touch of the ball.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play competitive golf.

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2 minutes ago, sui generis said:

This is not a hypothetical. Those of you who've played a yellow ball will know that it's often a magnet for insects, most often the winged variety but sometimes the land based. If the player, in an honest effort to remove a live insect pokes a tee under the thing and touches the ball in the process, who's to say it was a deliberate touch of the ball.

Only the player knows (this is not uncommon across the rules which depend on integrity). Providing the player is only aiming to remove the insect, I don't see any issue. But Mr B seemed to be proposing something different - implying a player could be permitted to deliberately touch the ball for that 'low profile' insect. My reaction was simply I'd need to hear that from those licensed to interpret a rule inconsistently with what a rule says.

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2 minutes ago, antip said:

Only the player knows (this is not uncommon across the rules which depend on integrity). Providing the player is only aiming to remove the insect, I don't see any issue. But Mr B seemed to be proposing something different - implying a player could be permitted to deliberately touch the ball for that 'low profile' insect. My reaction was simply I'd need to hear that from those licensed to interpret a rule inconsistently with what a rule says.

 

Thanks, I thought I'd chew this one over with our friends here and then see if I needed to call the cops next week. ?

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play competitive golf.

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25 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

What if the player used his privilege to identify his ball and in doing so the insect was also moved?

No issue providing the identification process is consistent with Rule 7.3 - cannot lift to identify if "not reasonably necessary to identify it...". The integrity theme arises again.

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1 hour ago, antip said:

Without a specific RB ruling, I don't think there is any Rules authority to deliberately touch that ball, even if the objective is to remove an insect.

I’m with you, I don’t see any way around:

 

If the player lifts or deliberately touches his or her ball at rest or causes it to move, the player gets one penalty stroke.

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11 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I agree. IMO the Rule does not prevent accidental touching of the ball while moving LI's. And even further than that, IMO even a deliberate touching in such a case would be ok, as sometimes one needs to place the tee (or similar) between the ball and the insect and it is inevitable that the tee touches the ball.

Yes to the first bit but a definite no to the second.

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So, a player wanting to remove a live insect from his ball with a tee may do that by accidentally touching the ball. But according to some posters here the player may not base that procedure on the fact that he IS going to touch the ball with the tee. Personally I find that view hypocrite as the tee is going to touch that ball in any case and the player KNOWS IT before he begins the procedure.

 

So, based on that view a player may remove a live insect from his ball ONLY in cases where he is 95% (KVC) sure he is not going to touch the ball BUT should he touch it the touching would be accidental. In ALL other cases the player would be touching the ball deliberately thus incurring a one stroke penalty.

 

Am I close?

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Intentionally, incidentally, or accidentally touching while not the same, none has any effect on a ball which isn't moved. I've often wondered why the ruling bodies even care. Let's make R9.4b a little shorter?

Edited by sui generis
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1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

So, a player wanting to remove a live insect from his ball with a tee may do that by accidentally touching the ball. But according to some posters here the player may not base that procedure on the fact that he IS going to touch the ball with the tee. Personally I find that view hypocrite as the tee is going to touch that ball in any case and the player KNOWS IT before he begins the procedure.

 

So, based on that view a player may remove a live insect from his ball ONLY in cases where he is 95% (KVC) sure he is not going to touch the ball BUT should he touch it the touching would be accidental. In ALL other cases the player would be touching the ball deliberately thus incurring a one stroke penalty.

 

Am I close?

Didn’t there used to be a Decision which said you couldn’t hold a ball in place while removing a LI? 

 

Irrespective of that recollection (and a parallel unawareness that this issue had been revised) it seems like sound thinking to me. I’d gratefully touch my ball when removing a nearby stick if I was allowed, and I don’t think I should be allowed. 

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2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

Puristic's talk IMO. I am in favor of Sui's proposal. After all the outcome is the same, insect removed and the ball did not move. Who the F**K cares for the rest?

It's one thing to agree to a proposal, but earlier you were stating that it was currently  permissible to touch the ball in order to remove the insect.  I wasn't the only one to say no to that.  Out of curiosity, have you changed your view?

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5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

So, a player wanting to remove a live insect from his ball with a tee may do that by accidentally touching the ball. But according to some posters here the player may not base that procedure on the fact that he IS going to touch the ball with the tee. Personally I find that view hypocrite as the tee is going to touch that ball in any case and the player KNOWS IT before he begins the procedure.

 

So, based on that view a player may remove a live insect from his ball ONLY in cases where he is 95% (KVC) sure he is not going to touch the ball BUT should he touch it the touching would be accidental. In ALL other cases the player would be touching the ball deliberately thus incurring a one stroke penalty.

 

Am I close?

No. You are inventing a problem that isn't there. The Rule is clear.

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1 hour ago, antip said:

No. You are inventing a problem that isn't there. The Rule is clear.

 

I would like to induce the insect to leave the ball. It would seem that if I incidentally (certainly not deliberately, but not really accidentally, either) touch the ball with a tee in the process, I'd like to do it with a clear conscience.

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1 hour ago, sui generis said:

 

I would like to induce the insect to leave the ball. It would seem that if I incidentally (certainly not deliberately, but not really accidentally, either) touch the ball with a tee in the process, I'd like to do it with a clear conscience.

Albert Schweitzer would approve.

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2 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

I would like to induce the insect to leave the ball. It would seem that if I incidentally (certainly not deliberately, but not really accidentally, either) touch the ball with a tee in the process, I'd like to do it with a clear conscience.

Deciding the line on a tricky putt must be a real torment carrying that much introspection burden. Just think "certainly not deliberately" and you are good to (carefully) induce away.

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Love the question. It is a good one.

 

A couple weeks ago I had a nice little honey bee land on my ball and refuse to leave no matter how much I waved at it. Finally I decided to hit and hope it could sense its impending doom and fly off. 

 

I learned a few things.

 

1. Honey bee's can not sense impending doom

2.Focusing on a bee on your ball when swinging results in pure contact (I started focusing a dimple or letter after that and it works well)

3.Honey bee remains aren't easy to clean of a Prov1X

 

Joking aside, I felt bad about sending that bee to his maker, but I assume he must have been near life's end, given his lack of survival instinct.

 

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11 hours ago, Colin L said:

It's one thing to agree to a proposal, but earlier you were stating that it was currently  permissible to touch the ball in order to remove the insect.  I wasn't the only one to say no to that.  Out of curiosity, have you changed your view?

 

As a referee I would not hunt for a penalty in such a situation but would let the player operate quite freely as long as the ball does not move and he is not holding the ball steady. If that is considered an incorrect ruling so be it. Sometimes we just have to look behind the Rule instead of holding to it to the letter, IMHO.

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11 hours ago, rogolf said:

And you've never been on the "purist" side?  Give me a break!  Hit the ball regardless of the insect.

 

That would be my solution to the problem as well unless the insect is large and is located at the point of impact. Especially a putt or chip off the green might be hard to perform in such a case so I would try to remove the insect.

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