Handicapping a match & "playing off the low man"

[MelloYello]

According to instruction I've seen everyone in a match should get strokes. However, I commonly run into people who "play off the low man" and subtract that person's strokes from everyone else's before allotting those strokes across holes. This just makes it so the low man acts as a 0 and doesn't get any strokes. I'm noticing that it makes a difference in what holes benefit who. 

 

Example

Player A: 2 handicap

Player B: 10 handicap

 

Player B would "benefit" by getting a stroke on holes 3-10 where Player A did not. 

 

Alternative:

 

Player A: 0

Player B: 8

 

Player B would "benefit" by getting strokes on holes 1-8 where Player A did not (as opposed to holes 3-10). 

 

 

Are both of these acceptable or is this "playing off the low man" just a mistake? 

Edited September 27, 2020 by MelloYello

[Tdsjfb]

If the difference in caps is 8, the 8 strokes are given on the "8 hardest" handicap holes.

[ThinkingPlus]

If the handicap holes have been assigned appropriately then statistically there should be no difference between those scenarios.

[Sawgrass]

From USGA’s FAQs about handicapping, note last sentence:

 

Fundamentals of Handicapping

Q. Someone asks me what my handicap is when we are standing on the first tee. What do I tell them?

A. Start with your Handicap Index! This drives everything. Your Handicap Index forms the basis for your Course and Playing Handicap. 

Course Rating, Slope Rating and par are used to determine your Course Handicap, which represents the number of strokes you need to play to par. 

Your Playing Handicap is the actual number of strokes you give or receive for the round being played. It is typically the same number as your Course Handicap. However, one exception is when a term of the competition applies, such as a handicap allowance used for equity in certain formats of play. Another exception is for match play, where the player with the lowest Playing Handicap plays off zero strokes and the other players(s) receive the difference. (Rules 5.2, 6.1, 6.2 and Appendix C, Rules of Handicapping)

[Mudguard]

4 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

If the handicap holes have been assigned appropriately then statistically there should be no difference between those scenarios.

 

Well it depends. If you have two players. One plays off one, the other a two. So the difference in ability is one stroke. Should that stroke be allocated to the hardest hole, or the second hardest?

 

I've only ever played it this way round, low marker goes to zero. 

[Newby]

20 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

 

Well it depends. If you have two players. One plays off one, the other a two. So the difference in ability is one stroke. Should that stroke be allocated to the hardest hole, or the second hardest?

 

I've only ever played it this way round, low marker goes to zero. 

There are now at least three ways for handling Stroke Index allocation

1) Traditional -  according to difficulty (as measured by comparing scores against par 

2) Match play - according to the significance in a close match

3) WHS Appendix E- a mixture of 1 & 2 except that difficulty is based on the Course Rating score for each hole and the positioning is more complex than 2.

[Augster]

A 17 cap plays an 18 cap. Should the 18 get his stroke on the “easiest” hole, the 18 cap hole, or the “hardest” hole, the 1 cap?

 

Always subtract out. The less handicap strokes in play, the more fair the competition. 

[davep043]

22 hours ago, MelloYello said:

According to instruction I've seen everyone in a match should get strokes. However, I commonly run into people who "play off the low man" and subtract that person's strokes from everyone else's before allotting those strokes across holes. This just makes it so the low man acts as a 0 and doesn't get any strokes. I'm noticing that it makes a difference in what holes benefit who. 

 

Example

Player A: 2 handicap

Player B: 10 handicap

 

Player B would "benefit" by getting a stroke on holes 3-10 where Player A did not. 

 

Alternative:

 

Player A: 0

Player B: 8

 

Player B would "benefit" by getting strokes on holes 1-8 where Player A did not (as opposed to holes 3-10). 

 

 

Are both of these acceptable or is this "playing off the low man" just a mistake? 

Playing using the full stroke allocation is the mistake.  The WHS Rules of Handicapping, Appendix C, recommends this:

Quote

In general, after handicap allowances have been applied in match play formats, the player with the lowest Playing Handicap plays off zero strokes relative to the other player(s).  The other player(s) receive(s) the difference between their own Playing Handicap and that of the player with the lowest Playing Handicap.

The lowest handicap player gets zero, the rest get the difference.

[MelloYello]

20 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

From USGA’s FAQs about handicapping, note last sentence:

 

Fundamentals of Handicapping

Q. Someone asks me what my handicap is when we are standing on the first tee. What do I tell them?

A. Start with your Handicap Index! This drives everything. Your Handicap Index forms the basis for your Course and Playing Handicap. 

Course Rating, Slope Rating and par are used to determine your Course Handicap, which represents the number of strokes you need to play to par. 

Your Playing Handicap is the actual number of strokes you give or receive for the round being played. It is typically the same number as your Course Handicap. However, one exception is when a term of the competition applies, such as a handicap allowance used for equity in certain formats of play. Another exception is for match play, where the player with the lowest Playing Handicap plays off zero strokes and the other players(s) receive the difference. (Rules 5.2, 6.1, 6.2 and Appendix C, Rules of Handicapping)

 

14 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Playing using the full stroke allocation is the mistake.  The WHS Rules of Handicapping, Appendix C, recommends this:

The lowest handicap player gets zero, the rest get the difference.

 

It sounds to me like it's a Match-Play vs Stroke Play question? 

 

Match-Play >> Lowest player plays off 0. 

Stroke-Play >> Everyone gets strokes???

Edited September 28, 2020 by MelloYello

[Sawgrass]

6 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

 

It sounds to me like it's a Match-Play vs Stroke Play question? 

 

Match-Play >> Lowest player plays off 0. 

Stroke-Play >> Everyone gets strokes???

Yes, as in stroke play the specific hole where a handicap stroke might be applied is irrelevant.

[SNIPERBBB]

 There is no benefit to the low man ever not subtracting the difference. Net skins maybe but then your pushing strokes to easier holes. Some guys are just addicted to their strokes for some reason.

[davep043]

18 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Yes, as in stroke play the specific hole where a handicap stroke might be applied is irrelevant.

Agree with @Sawgrass, for individual stroke play the strokes aren't applied to holes (in general), the handicap is subtracted from the gross total.  Stroke allocation DOES matter in fourball net stroke play, and makes the difference in determining which player's score counts for the team on that hole.  Because you were talking about one player getting benefit as compared to a different player, I inferred that you were talking about match play, where strokes ARE applied to specific holes.  

[Sawgrass]

Yes, I should have noted that!

 

 

[Mudguard]

I read the thread title as match as in matchplay. If people are talking about strokeplay then it's a different kettle of fish. If you are playing a match, then the low marker goes to zero. Every time I read these threads I get the impressions that people are playing hybrid games of match and stroke play. It's one or the other. Here if you're playing a match on a Saturday, you can't enter the haggle, IE stableford or net etc. Because you can't have your opponent concede a two footer and then you need to knock it in for your stablefords!

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, Mudguard said:

I read the thread title as match as in matchplay. If people are talking about strokeplay then it's a different kettle of fish. If you are playing a match, then the low marker goes to zero. Every time I read these threads I get the impressions that people are playing hybrid games of match and stroke play. It's one or the other. Here if you're playing a match on a Saturday, you can't enter the haggle, IE stableford or net etc. Because you can't have your opponent concede a two footer and then you need to knock it in for your stablefords!

For the vast majority of USA golfers, they are *always* playing stroke play no matter what match they may have going. But they generally concede putts regardless, because they like conceding putts. 

 

I can't tell you how many random people I've met who, when I propose we play a head to head or fourball match, either say "Let's just keep our own score and compare them at the end" or they accept the match but then spend the entire round pretending they're playing stroke play and talking about their stroke-play score. 

 

It's a cultural thing.

[Augster]

2 hours ago, North Butte said:

For the vast majority of USA golfers, they are *always* playing stroke play no matter what match they may have going. But they generally concede putts regardless, because they like conceding putts. 

 

I can't tell you how many random people I've met who, when I propose we play a head to head or fourball match, either say "Let's just keep our own score and compare them at the end" or they accept the match but then spend the entire round pretending they're playing stroke play and talking about their stroke-play score. 

 

It's a cultural thing.

Yep. 
 

I just had this argument with a friend. We play hi/low. 2 points per hole. I played out of turn and holed it. One of my opponents wanted me to replay the shot. Because it’s a “match”. 
 

I told him, “Match play scoring is 1-up, 2-up, loss of hole etc. We’re playing stroke play because we’re playing for 2 points per hole”. 
 

Yet we concede putts etc. It’s a hybrid. 

[Hogan9]

We usually play off my handicap (10) in our group. One guy gets one shot, one gets two and one gets four. It usually works fine. It's also easier to keep score with only four holes where strokes come into play. 

[Mudguard]

On 10/9/2020 at 8:23 AM, Hogan9 said:

We usually play off my handicap (10) in our group. One guy gets one shot, one gets two and one gets four. It usually works fine. It's also easier to keep score with only four holes where strokes come into play. 

So do you go to zero?

[Hogan9]

On 10/9/2020 at 3:57 PM, Mudguard said:

So do you go to zero?

Yes. While I have to play my best, it usually works out. 

[llewol007]

Im always the low man in our group and believe me when I say it stinks. Often times, I go in knowing that I have to makes birdie to have a chance at pushing some of the guys who play to low teens. What makes it worse for me is the golf course we often play on is a shorter course so distance does not offer any advantage. I dont complain about it since it is what it is. When I end up beating guys who stroke on the 12-15 toughest holes, it makes me laugh that they dont win versus me winning. It actually does light a fire to shoot par or better and let the apples fall where they may. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by llewol007

[Hogan9]

13 minutes ago, llewol007 said:

Im always the low man in our group and believe me when I say it stinks. Often times, I go in knowing that I have to makes birdies to have a chance at pushing some of the guys who play to low teens. What makes it worse for me is the golf course we often play on is a shorter course so distance does not offer any advantage. I dont complain about it since it is what it is. When I end up beating guys who strokes on the 12-15 toughest holes, I makes me laugh that they dont win versus me winning. It actually does light a fire to shoot par or better and let the apples fall where they may. 

You're right. Playing off the low man doesn't work as well if there's a big difference in handicaps. We have about six guys in our group and the biggest differential is four shots. 

[llewol007]

5 minutes ago, Hogan9 said:

You're right. Playing off the low man doesn't work as well if there's a big difference in handicaps. We have about six guys in our group and the biggest differential is four shots. 

Wish that was the case, I have guys getting between 8 to 14 strokes. But like I said, it lights a fire under me to shoot really well. 

[davep043]

11 hours ago, llewol007 said:

Wish that was the case, I have guys getting between 8 to 14 strokes. But like I said, it lights a fire under me to shoot really well. 

Do you think the outcomes would be substantially different if you gave strokes on the 8 to 14 "easiest" holes on the course?  I don't have sources in front of me, but I've read that while individual match results might vary, the percentages won by higher and lower handicap players stay about the same.

[Newby]

15 hours ago, Hogan9 said:

You're right. Playing off the low man doesn't work as well if there's a big difference in handicaps. 

And you have reliable stats to support this ?

[llewol007]

3 hours ago, davep043 said:

Do you think the outcomes would be substantially different if you gave strokes on the 8 to 14 "easiest" holes on the course?  I don't have sources in front of me, but I've read that while individual match results might vary, the percentages won by higher and lower handicap players stay about the same.

Believe or not I’ve seen that I have a greater chance in shooting a better score even if the other players are getting strokes 

[davep043]

10 minutes ago, llewol007 said:

Believe or not I’ve seen that I have a greater chance in shooting a better score even if the other players are getting strokes 

That's apparently a matter of concentration and motivation, and I'm not all that surprised, but really doesn't answer my question.  Do you think you would win more match play rounds of you give strokes on holes indexed as 1 to 10, or if you give strokes on holes 9 to 18?  Same number of strokes, just applied to different holes.

[llewol007]

23 minutes ago, davep043 said:

That's apparently a matter of concentration and motivation, and I'm not all that surprised, but really doesn't answer my question.  Do you think you would win more match play rounds of you give strokes on holes indexed as 1 to 10, or if you give strokes on holes 9 to 18?  Same number of strokes, just applied to different holes.

On the short course we play often my answer would be no. The distance difference that I have is an advantage and the course we play on is about 6000 yards but has a high course rating since it’s a tighter course with small greens. Most of our guys drive the ball about 240 yards and they are left with 8 or nine irons in. Very doable. Now if you raise the yardage up to 6800 or even crack 7000 yards, they are hitting more mid to long irons if not hybrids. That is where more mistakes would happen. I would go from hitting more gap wedges to 8 irons in. It might work on other courses where there is a big difference in difficulty between the toughest 9 handicapped holes versus the “easier” 9 ranked handicap holes. There it would not. 

[Hogan9]

On 10/11/2020 at 1:21 PM, Newby said:

And you have reliable stats to support this ?

Yes, I have compiled a 38 page dossier of all the stats that support this opinion.

Just kidding. I'm just going off practical experience. Maybe I'm wrong, 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Hogan9

[Newby]

58 minutes ago, Hogan9 said:

Maybe I'm wrong, 

Does that mean you have got the dossier?

[Augster]

I play off 3 now. My son plays off 10. My friend Bill plays off 15 and my friend Jack plays the golds and plays off 20.

 

I’ll have a match with them any time and give full strokes after subtracting me out. I’d bet it’s close to 55/45 toward me just because I’ll play better golf more consistently. 
 

If you have guys that have real caps, the WHS works fantastically regardless of the “big difference in handicaps”. 
 

The EASY way to check after the round is to see what your net score was. If you’re at net par, something you should do 1/4 to 1/5 rounds, you’ll likely win the money. If you aren’t, and someone else is at net par, they’ll likely win the money.