Golf companies that provide different clubs to tour pros vs. to regular customers AND keep it quiet

[golfer55082]

Callaway is definitely one such company. Don’t get me wrong, I think Callaway makes great clubs, and I played their drivers and woods and still play  their irons; however  I felt a bit “betrayed” when I spent $$$ on new Apex Pro irons and only found out later that it’s not the same model as used by their pros. But..but Callaway you tell me Xander and Marc Lishman won with “Apex Pro irons” and nowhere you tell me they use “tour only dot model”... Same thing happened two years ago when I bought a new Epic Flash driver and foolishly believed “I play Phil’s driver”. This is very sad. I start to think that this behavior is misguiding customers and should not be allowed...or this is general practice in Golf industry and everyone does this?

[setter02]

Ummmmm....  This isn't anything new...   

[DMartini]

i have a few PM grinds and i love them and i do know Phil attacks his own ones with a DeWalt angle grinder in his garage!! it doesnt bother me that Phil butchers his.

 

seriously though, is this really a problem to you? if you want the Pro dot or double dot maybe have a look on fleabay they occasionally pop up for sale there if you have the dosh and go-nads to play those.

[Valtiel]

You have to look at it from the other way around though, because the pros are always going to be able to get exactly what they want/need, so you're left with three options. 

1) The pros get customized stuff if/when necessary and a standardized "retail" model is brought to the public.
2) The pros aren't allowed to have customized stuff because it would make people like you upset that you can't have the same thing. 
3) The pros get customized stuff and the manufacturer has to find a way to make it available to the public as well. 

And in this case, #3 DID in fact happen with both the DOT irons and different versions of the Epic Flash. All of that aside though, if you're placing that much value in a club just because it is the same one a pro plays then your priorities are skewed. Even if it is the same model, the pros will have access to cherry picked specs, hotmelting for weight and CG adjustment, bending/grinding/modifying, and other part swapping that will still end up being something different than what you have. Because what they have does not matter, as long as companies aren't using cheaper/inferior materials or build quality in their retail releases, which they aren't. 

 

[North Butte]

Word of advice...

 

Don't ever buy a golf club because a Tour player supposedly plays. 

 

And don't ever buy a car because it's what your favorite NASCAR driver supposedly drives. 

[mvhoffman]

That's why i'll stick with Ping.  What you see is what you get.  There's been stories from tour pros (Lee Westwood) of flying to a charity event, losing his clubs in the commute and going to a golf store and buying a set and having them adjusted in the store.  I'll try to find the link to the article/story.

[bluedot]

This is a gate that swings both ways.  I doubt that very many Tour pros, regardless of the brand of club, are using what you and I can buy from the company without some really heavy customizing.  But, by the same token, I suspect that the customized clubs that pros are playing would be a good fit for us, whether you're talking about the shafts, the grips, the grinds, whatever.  Those guys are just different, and I don't want or need the same equipment that they use.

 

 

[Red4282]

I dont think you should take offense to it, its not like the retail stuff is just junk compared to the pros stuff, its still really really good. Alot of times its just a few tweaks off retail-thinner topline, less offset, stuff that really doesnt sell that well on the retail market. I do think this stuff should be more available tho, you can be a really really good golfer and benefit from the tweaks...but from a business perspective it doesnt make a ton of sense because that segment is so small.

[miamistomp]

 Phil can not hit a Phairway-- buy Brendon Todd's driver 😁😁

    In all seriousness just buy what you hit well- 

      When I worked for the phone company I worked in Ray Floyd's house

       He had a workshop that would probably put custom fitters to shame--pros either get them modified or do it themselves when they know how

       

[golfer55082]

12 hours ago, Valtiel said:

You have to look at it from the other way around though, because the pros are always going to be able to get exactly what they want/need, so you're left with three options. 

1) The pros get customized stuff if/when necessary and a standardized "retail" model is brought to the public.
2) The pros aren't allowed to have customized stuff because it would make people like you upset that you can't have the same thing. 
3) The pros get customized stuff and the manufacturer has to find a way to make it available to the public as well. 

And in this case, #3 DID in fact happen with both the DOT irons and different versions of the Epic Flash. All of that aside though, if you're placing that much value in a club just because it is the same one a pro plays then your priorities are skewed. Even if it is the same model, the pros will have access to cherry picked specs, hotmelting for weight and CG adjustment, bending/grinding/modifying, and other part swapping that will still end up being something different than what you have. Because what they have does not matter, as long as companies aren't using cheaper/inferior materials or build quality in their retail releases, which they aren't. 

 

The difference between “tour issue” and retail can be stark; not necessarily “inferior” but mostly likely “cheaper” in the retail models. Plus general consumers are uninformed of the difference and they can only innocently believe they play the same model as they pros do because they are told so by ads, which is unfair. 

[Nessism]

13 hours ago, mvhoffman said:

That's why i'll stick with Ping.  What you see is what you get.  There's been stories from tour pros (Lee Westwood) of flying to a charity event, losing his clubs in the commute and going to a golf store and buying a set and having them adjusted in the store.  I'll try to find the link to the article/story.

 

I doubt many Ping pro's use off the shelf models.  Ping offers a huge array of custom grinds among other things.  Plus with most pro's they use very specific shafts, weighting, length, loft/lie's, etc.  

 

None if this matters for you and me of course.  Custom fitting is specific for the person.  None of us should be playing what the pro's use.

[PorkChopExpress]

Not sure why it matters what the pro plays to what you play 

Even if you had the same club, it’d be built completely different based on tour player swing to yours. 
 

You could get the same suit materials as James Bond, but would be completely differently tailored. 

[DallasSteve]

OP, I get what you're saying. The hypocrisy on this site is rich sometimes.  "Play what you want." Right.  Until everybody wants to tell you why you shouldn't "want" to play what you want to play.  You WANT to play the same clubs that Xander or Leishman plays (with whatever shafts, grips, and swingweight you want in yours), and Callaway is making money off of you because you, and lots of other people who rightly or wrongly want what the pros play, believe that is what they are getting.  I agree that it is intentionally misleading the uneducated public (MOST of the consuming public).  Why else would they make the clubs "look" very similar (badging) and have the same name unless they want you to believe that it will be the same thing you will buy when you go to the store, even though it's not.  Think any manufacturers would voluntarily advertise that, "The clubs we want to sell you are somewhat similar to what our pros are playing, but they are NOT what you see on TV"???  NASCAR and the dealerships tell you straight up that the car at the dealership is NOT the same as you see at the track.  If they wanted you to think you were buying a 600HP monster, but they actually sell you a 150HP car, the guys on here would tell you that you're better off with the 150HP because you'll be safer, but that's not what you were told (or led to believe by "omission") you were buying.  Despite what everyone says above, the average joe golf club buyer DOES think he's buying the same club as their favorite pro is playing (which is why Mr. or Ms. Pro gets paid so much to play them).  Are they better off NOT getting what they want?  Probably.  But it's still deception.

[Nessism]

8 hours ago, DallasSteve said:

OP, I get what you're saying. The hypocrisy on this site is rich sometimes.  "Play what you want." Right.  Until everybody wants to tell you why you shouldn't "want" to play what you want to play.  You WANT to play the same clubs that Xander or Leishman plays (with whatever shafts, grips, and swingweight you want in yours), and Callaway is making money off of you because you, and lots of other people who rightly or wrongly want what the pros play, believe that is what they are getting.  I agree that it is intentionally misleading the uneducated public (MOST of the consuming public).  Why else would they make the clubs "look" very similar (badging) and have the same name unless they want you to believe that it will be the same thing you will buy when you go to the store, even though it's not.  Think any manufacturers would voluntarily advertise that, "The clubs we want to sell you are somewhat similar to what our pros are playing, but they are NOT what you see on TV"???  NASCAR and the dealerships tell you straight up that the car at the dealership is NOT the same as you see at the track.  If they wanted you to think you were buying a 600HP monster, but they actually sell you a 150HP car, the guys on here would tell you that you're better off with the 150HP because you'll be safer, but that's not what you were told (or led to believe by "omission") you were buying.  Despite what everyone says above, the average joe golf club buyer DOES think he's buying the same club as their favorite pro is playing (which is why Mr. or Ms. Pro gets paid so much to play them).  Are they better off NOT getting what they want?  Probably.  But it's still deception.

 

Do you need to be told that the cars raced in NASCAR are not straight off the showroom floor?

 

Regarding custom clubs for tour pro's, that's the way it's always been.  What would you have Callaway do?  Advertise Marc Leishman's irons as "custom design that look almost the same and have most of the same design features as Apex Pro." 

[LeoLeo99]

5 minutes ago, Nessism said:

 

Do you need to be told that the cars raced in NASCAR are not straight off the showroom floor?

 

Regarding custom clubs for tour pro's, that's the way it's always been.  What would you have Callaway do?  Advertise Marc Leishman's irons as "custom design that look almost the same and have most of the same design features as Apex Pro." 

 

I know for a fact that I was not told that my Camry was not the same as the car raced on NASCAR.  Nothing at the dealership indicated this.  

 

The golf sales guy at Herman Brooks Sporting Goods in 1980 told me the clubs on tour are not the same as the ones they sold in the store.  They only looked the same.  

 

I'm sure any of the pros on tour could stop in a Golf Galaxy, buy a set of clubs, get them tweaked for lie and head to a charity event and shoot the lights out.  

[llewol007]

But why act as if they are doing something wrong and that it directly affects you. A lot of corporations tell half truths when it comes to their sponsorships you should know that by know. To say that you are gonna get exactly what the pros are playing is really more fault of the consumer. I worked at a golf shop for about 5 years and you always knew the pros get the good stuff. There is a reason why it is called tour issue or tour spec. Their specs are way different than us commoners. It is like walking into the PGA superstore, having a shopping spree and having the tour van tweaking everything about the club to get it to where the player is dialed in. Heck even their clothes are picked out for them each day based on color combos. That is why it is so great to have a website llike GolfWrx to be able to pick up tour offered stuff. 

[PhlashPhace]

A tour pro's needs are probably different than yours/ours.  It also costs a lot of money to take different SKUs to production so if Callaway looks at a specific line and realizes that they're only going to sell a few sets they're not going to put them in full production and lose money.

 

Taylormade and Callaway are pretty aggressive with their R&D and "tour only" gear so if it bothers you that you aren't hitting what the guys on TV are I would suggest staying away from them and going with Ping or Titleist, although you aren't probably going to be hitting the wedges and putters the Titleist guys do.

[Bad9]

7 hours ago, PhlashPhace said:

A tour pro's needs are probably different than yours/ours.  It also costs a lot of money to take different SKUs to production so if Callaway looks at a specific line and realizes that they're only going to sell a few sets they're not going to put them in full production and lose money.

 

Taylormade and Callaway are pretty aggressive with their R&D and "tour only" gear so if it bothers you that you aren't hitting what the guys on TV are I would suggest staying away from them and going with Ping or Titleist, although you aren't probably going to be hitting the wedges and putters the Titleist guys do.

Titleist(And I suspect all manufacturers) have a long history of special tour only models. DL3 for years had a custom forged set of irons that weren’t available to the public. I really don’t understand why this pisses guys off.

[DallasSteve]

I know all this, you know all this, but average Joe Schmoe doesn't.  Obviously, the OP didn't know beforehand, either.

[SUMM1T]

For the longest time I felt "cheated" by OEMs because of this. They market their players to the masses, telling us to play what they play, and yet I knew it wasn't even close. But, as many have said, you have to look at it from both sides and I understand why companies do it. Professionals in any sport benefit from finely tuned equipment while amateurs wouldn't see the gains or know how to see the gains. The gear junkie in me loves to see the custom gear and wishes the companies were more "open" about it. 

[golfer55082]

1 hour ago, DallasSteve said:

I know all this, you know all this, but average Joe Schmoe doesn't.  Obviously, the OP didn't know beforehand, either.

I am in the process of obtaining and having a tour issue Apex double dots irons built. It will cost me about $1200, almost double the price of regular apex pro irons. If it does not outperform my x-forged irons, I will look at other brands like Ping which is (I heard) more truthful to their customers...at least I would not have to spend double $$ for the same irons that tour players play. 

[grm24]

36 minutes ago, golfer55082 said:

I am in the process of obtaining and having a tour issue Apex double dots irons built. It will cost me about $1200, almost double the price of regular apex pro irons. 

So where did you get a brand new set of Apex Pro irons for $600? DHgate? AliBaba maybe? Retail on the base 2019 Apex Pro irons is $175 per club. 

[golfer55082]

17 minutes ago, grm24 said:

So where did you get a brand new set of Apex Pro irons for $600? DHgate? AliBaba maybe? Retail on the base 2019 Apex Pro irons is $175 per club. 

I am buying “used” Apex double dot irons now; if I buy similar-condition regular apex pro from eBay, it would be half the price. 

[blueonblack]

Wait...I CAN'T go race my Camry in Nascar?

Everything is available for the right price. Most don't wanna pay that. ((Me neither!!)) I'm getting surprised by the cost of just the "ho-hum" retail gear, however.

Edited September 30, 2020 by blueonblack

[Howard_Jones]

What fits YOU is what should be focus and whats important, not to play "the same specs and clubs they play on the tour", thats kind of lame really, because Tiger uses 11 in shoes, they dont fit me, so why should i try to use equipment with the same specs they doo? His DG X100 is fantastic shafts, but both too heavy and too stiff for me, and with my hands, i cant play the "kid size" grips many of the pros plays, i need jumbo....

So why does it bother you that you cant buy clubs with the same specs Tour pro plays? Ive made the full bag for both PGA and LPGA players, non of them had the same specs for anything, all of this bags was based on "personal fitted specs" who included sole grinding, not "Tour specs", that dont exist, but there was "Tour Custom options" on my price list....goods with limited availability like hand grinded heads from blanks, but no "Tour specs standard" for that either, only personal fitted specs for each player.

So, specs that fits YOU is whats important, not what Phil, Rory or Tiger plays, so all you need to do is to find the place who offers true custom fitting and clubs, and then you should talk to companies like National Custom Works, Artisan or at least on level with Edel when we talk irons to short game. in the long end you will be needed to check out other options than this companies.

Nothing stops you, time and money might, so if the complain is due to that the local Golf Mart dont offer you any of this, its your expectations thats unrealistic, "Burger King" want be to find in Michelins guide for finer dining, they never will, so if the feeling you got is that you payed for a premium product but got a "look alike clone", i have to ask, how do they work for you?

 

[cardoustie]

Ever try to hit tour pro's clubs, a very strong pro's?  I have ... you don't want them buddy

 

Phil for example, he has all kinds of crazy low spin stuff ... to his detriment IMO

 

Personally if you love a pro, like Phil, you can nearly match his bag, but TO YOUR SPECS

 

of course you may be a lefty that is 6'3" and swings 120mph with a sick short game and multiple Masters titles

[golfer55082]

36 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

What fits YOU is what should be focus and whats important, not to play "the same specs and clubs they play on the tour", thats kind of lame really, because Tiger uses 11 in shoes, they dont fit me, so why should i try to use equipment with the same specs they doo? His DG X100 is fantastic shafts, but both too heavy and too stiff for me, and with my hands, i cant play the "kid size" grips many of the pros plays, i need jumbo....

So why does it bother you that you cant buy clubs with the same specs Tour pro plays? Ive made the full bag for both PGA and LPGA players, non of them had the same specs for anything, all of this bags was based on "personal fitted specs" who included sole grinding, not "Tour specs", that dont exist, but there was "Tour Custom options" on my price list....goods with limited availability like hand grinded heads from blanks, but no "Tour specs standard" for that either, only personal fitted specs for each player.

So, specs that fits YOU is whats important, not what Phil, Rory or Tiger plays, so all you need to do is to find the place who offers true custom fitting and clubs, and then you should talk to companies like National Custom Works, Artisan or at least on level with Edel when we talk irons to short game. in the long end you will be needed to check out other options than this companies.

Nothing stops you, time and money might, so if the complain is due to that the local Golf Mart dont offer you any of this, its your expectations thats unrealistic, "Burger King" want be to find in Michelins guide for finer dining, they never will, so if the feeling you got is that you payed for a premium product but got a "look alike clone", i have to ask, how do they work for you?

 

Howard, your point is valid about custom fitting which I always think of but have not done. You also have a good point to ask how the off-the-shelf clubs perform for me: I can say my x-forged irons work really well; however as my game progresses, AND now knowing pros play different/modified  models, I cannot stop wondering if tour models would work even better and can help my game to reach another level. Therefore I started to look for tour issue irons. It has been difficult, and costly, to obtain Callaway tour issue irons - this is what triggered the post. 
 

 

 

 

[North Butte]

6 minutes ago, golfer55082 said:

I cannot stop wondering if tour models would work even better and can help my game to reach another level. 

 

 

 

That answer is no. Not a chance. 

 

All of those "tour pros" got to the level they're at long before they had access to all the special stuff your dreaming about. You've got cause and effect completely backward. They can benefit from tour-level specs and clubheads BECAUSE of the nature of their game, not the other way around.

[golfer55082]

Just now, North Butte said:

That answer is no. Not a chance. 

 

All of those "tour pros" got to the level they're at long before they had access to all the special stuff your dreaming about. You've got cause and effect completely backward. They can benefit from tour-level specs and clubheads BECAUSE of the nature of their game, not the other way around.

Hmmmm... I am lucky to obtain a Callaway tour issue apex pro dot 4 iron. When I compare it with regular apex pro 4 iron, there are pretty stark differences that I imagine it might help my game. As I said I will build a set to test and compare. I am not at tour pro level by any means but I practice and play regularly and currently carry plus handicap. 

see the pictures  - the top is regular apex pro and the bottom is the tour issue dot. The tour issue has one more  groove, different shape, and longer toe to heel. The offset is smaller and it fits my eyes better. I will see if I play better with it.

[North Butte]

It's entirely possible for you to prefer a tour-issue model to the retail one for various reason. Nothing wrong with seeking out the equipment you prefer, even if it costs extra and takes a while to find. It's just not what's standing between you being a very good player and your becoming an elite one. 

 

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS DELETED, DIDN'T MEAN TO KEEP BANGING ON THE SAME POINT]

Edited September 30, 2020 by North Butte