Callaway EPIC Replacement

[SUMM1T]

9 hours ago, new2g0lf said:

I belong to 2 private golf clubs, the number of Mavrik's more than double the Sim in each club.  I don't care what colors are on a driver if it performs on the course.   Cobra and Srixon are not mainstream, Bryson may cause the RADSpeed to get some looks but nothing close to TM and Callaway.  Titleist and Ping will have an impact, Titleist is popular among better golfers with higher swing speeds and Ping has a loyal set of customers that are waiting for the replacement to the G400 MAX that goes 10 yards longer.  In the end it will come down to TM and Callaway because they are the most popular mainstream manufacturers for casual golf fans and golfers.  Most golf shops I walk into don't even carry Srixon, so unless international numbers are factored in, I don't see Srixon making Top 5.  

 

Being a member at two private clubs shows nothing about what the masses will do. What happens inside clubs is rarely what happens outside of clubs. Golf shops aren't carrying the load of club sales anymore, its mostly done online and starting to be done through fitters, which will carry most brands. 

[new2g0lf]

7 hours ago, SUMM1T said:

 

Being a member at two private clubs shows nothing about what the masses will do. What happens inside clubs is rarely what happens outside of clubs. Golf shops aren't carrying the load of club sales anymore, its mostly done online and starting to be done through fitters, which will carry most brands. 

I own a marketing agency with clients in the golf industry, I always pay attention to what's in peoples bags.  If you open your eyes and look around, you'll see TM and Callaway are in far more bags than Cobra or Srixon.  In the US, Srixon Drivers and woods aren't even a consideration for most people.  

[SUMM1T]

5 minutes ago, new2g0lf said:

I own a marketing agency with clients in the golf industry, I always pay attention to what's in peoples bags.  If you open your eyes and look around, you'll see TM and Callaway are in far more bags than Cobra or Srixon.  In the US, Srixon Drivers and woods aren't even a consideration for most people.  

 

You're looking at a small group of people, even if you personally look at 2,000 golf bags. While I understand that the market HAS heavily leaned towards TM and Callaway, I don't see that continuing. Consumers have been heavily influenced by the PGA Tour and marketing, but as the years go on the consumer is getting smarter. TM and Callaway may still be top dogs in 2021, but I highly doubt it will be at the margins we have seen. 

[noodle3872]

@SUMM1Tand @new2g0lf, can we call a truce and start to chat about the 2021 Epic line of woods? 

Edited December 16, 2020 by noodle3872

[SUMM1T]

2 minutes ago, noodle3872 said:

@SUMM1Tand @new2g0lf, can we call a truce and start to chat about the 2021 Epic line of woods? 

 

But MOM....

[new2g0lf]

3 minutes ago, SUMM1T said:

 

You're looking at a small group of people, even if you personally look at 2,000 golf bags. While I understand that the market HAS heavily leaned towards TM and Callaway, I don't see that continuing. Consumers have been heavily influenced by the PGA Tour and marketing, but as the years go on the consumer is getting smarter. TM and Callaway may still be top dogs in 2021, but I highly doubt it will be at the margins we have seen. 

I think a lot of people on this site are getting smarter, they are also more heavily invested than the average consumer.  Casual golfers that represent the bulk to the industry sales are not looking to spend $600 on artisan wedges, $1000 on a driver with a custom shaft or $600 putters, most probably don't even know those options exist.  They get recommendations from their buddies, look at what their favorite golfers use or whatever the latest Golf magazine recommended.  

 

In terms of what the market share margins will be, Titleist driver sales could eat into the TM and Callaway sales but they market towards better golfers with higher swing speeds, I rarely see a hack golfer with a Titleist driver.  Ping has a loyal following, but their mainstream marketing is lacking and quite honestly, they are seen as a brand for older golfers, they signed Finau, Hovland and Champ to try and shake that image, we'll see how it works at the end of 2021.  

As for Cobra, we may see them increase in driver market share if Bryson continues to be successful and leads the Tour in driving distance.   Srixon is still well behind the others in the US, internationally they are very well respected but here they are struggling.  None of the pro's they have under contract for drivers and woods will move the needle in the US or cause someone to go out and buy their drivers.   

 

I guess if you're thinking is TM and Callaway will lose a combined 10% of market share in the US driver industry I wouldn't argue with you, but if you think it's 20% or more I'd have to respectfully disagree.  

[new2g0lf]

1 hour ago, noodle3872 said:

@SUMM1Tand @new2g0lf, can we call a truce and start to chat about the 2021 Epic line of woods? 

Sure, Epic line of woods will get a lot of attention, the new jailbreak and AI design will be pushed hard.  I'm sure they will offer a custom driver version so you can make it whatever colors you want.   The top is black so I really don't know why anyone would pay extra just to change the colors on the sole but they can if they don't mind paying extra.  Driver colors on the sole of the club really don't matter to me, if it outperforms my Mavrik, it will be in my bag.  

[SUMM1T]

5 hours ago, new2g0lf said:

I think a lot of people on this site are getting smarter, they are also more heavily invested than the average consumer.  Casual golfers that represent the bulk to the industry sales are not looking to spend $600 on artisan wedges, $1000 on a driver with a custom shaft or $600 putters, most probably don't even know those options exist.  They get recommendations from their buddies, look at what their favorite golfers use or whatever the latest Golf magazine recommended.  

 

In terms of what the market share margins will be, Titleist driver sales could eat into the TM and Callaway sales but they market towards better golfers with higher swing speeds, I rarely see a hack golfer with a Titleist driver.  Ping has a loyal following, but their mainstream marketing is lacking and quite honestly, they are seen as a brand for older golfers, they signed Finau, Hovland and Champ to try and shake that image, we'll see how it works at the end of 2021.  

As for Cobra, we may see them increase in driver market share if Bryson continues to be successful and leads the Tour in driving distance.   Srixon is still well behind the others in the US, internationally they are very well respected but here they are struggling.  None of the pro's they have under contract for drivers and woods will move the needle in the US or cause someone to go out and buy their drivers.   

 

I guess if you're thinking is TM and Callaway will lose a combined 10% of market share in the US driver industry I wouldn't argue with you, but if you think it's 20% or more I'd have to respectfully disagree.  

 

K

[Jwin323]

Anyone know if there will be a Heavenwood this time? Or God forbid a SZ 7 wood?

[noodle3872]

1 hour ago, Jwin323 said:

Anyone know if there will be a Heavenwood this time? Or God forbid a SZ 7 wood?

I can’t imagine Callaway not doing a Heavenwood however I wouldn’t get your hopes up for a low spin version 7 wood. I would think if you need low spin the Apex hybrid replacement might fit the bill. 

[nsxguy]

The presence of each of the drivers in a store goes, from most to least on the rack, TM & Cally about tied for the most, then Ping, Titleist, Cobra,,,,,,,, then all the rest with a few drivers here and there.

 

I think it would be a very interesting exercise to combine marketing expenditures and presence on TV of each of the drivers and compare it to actual purchases - year over year.

 

Wonder how that'd turn out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, 

[Benkross]

On 10/19/2020 at 10:17 PM, ChitownM2 said:

 

Not disagreeing with you, but that is still a very small percentage of the market. No data to back this up, but I bet the overwhelming majority of all clubs sold have the same shaft in them their entire life and I bet it stays in the same position too after the first few rounds with it.

You're probably not wrong on people not changing setting after the fittings, but a huge reason for adjustable hosels isn't just for hos like me to swap shafts. It's also to dial in face and lie angle, especially in cases of a single axis sleeve. The drawbacks for the manufacturer are it's more complicated to engineer adjustable components, thus more expensive and comes at a cost of MOI bc adjustable hosels are much heavier. Very few people get lie angles adjusted on clubs with bonded hosels and in so many cases, clubs are made too long and too upright for the average height person. Ultimately it's about getting the proper fit, which is the biggest issue hurting average golfers (other than needing lessons). Today at the muni I played with 3 players all of whom had poorly fit equipment and swing flaws aside, I could adjust clubs on 2 on the players to improve their striking, but not on the 3rd player. I personally will not buy a fairway or hybrid with a bonded hosels. I want to be able to use my nice shafts on newer heads. 

[Benkross]

On 12/16/2020 at 6:02 PM, new2g0lf said:

I think a lot of people on this site are getting smarter, they are also more heavily invested than the average consumer.  Casual golfers that represent the bulk to the industry sales are not looking to spend $600 on artisan wedges, $1000 on a driver with a custom shaft or $600 putters, most probably don't even know those options exist.  They get recommendations from their buddies, look at what their favorite golfers use or whatever the latest Golf magazine recommended.  

 

In terms of what the market share margins will be, Titleist driver sales could eat into the TM and Callaway sales but they market towards better golfers with higher swing speeds, I rarely see a hack golfer with a Titleist driver.  Ping has a loyal following, but their mainstream marketing is lacking and quite honestly, they are seen as a brand for older golfers, they signed Finau, Hovland and Champ to try and shake that image, we'll see how it works at the end of 2021.  

As for Cobra, we may see them increase in driver market share if Bryson continues to be successful and leads the Tour in driving distance.   Srixon is still well behind the others in the US, internationally they are very well respected but here they are struggling.  None of the pro's they have under contract for drivers and woods will move the needle in the US or cause someone to go out and buy their drivers.   

 

I guess if you're thinking is TM and Callaway will lose a combined 10% of market share in the US driver industry I wouldn't argue with you, but if you think it's 20% or more I'd have to respectfully disagree.  

💯. Drivers in my last 3 rounds at public courses 

 

TM - 8

Callaway - 3

Ping - 1

 

Can't remember the last time I saw anything other than the big 3 and occasionally a Titleist. I've never seen a Srixon or Wilson driver in the wild.

 

[getair23]

8 hours ago, Benkross said:

You're probably not wrong on people not changing setting after the fittings, but a huge reason for adjustable hosels isn't just for hos like me to swap shafts. It's also to dial in face and lie angle, especially in cases of a single axis sleeve. The drawbacks for the manufacturer are it's more complicated to engineer adjustable components, thus more expensive and comes at a cost of MOI bc adjustable hosels are much heavier. Very few people get lie angles adjusted on clubs with bonded hosels and in so many cases, clubs are made too long and too upright for the average height person. Ultimately it's about getting the proper fit, which is the biggest issue hurting average golfers (other than needing lessons). Today at the muni I played with 3 players all of whom had poorly fit equipment and swing flaws aside, I could adjust clubs on 2 on the players to improve their striking, but not on the 3rd player. I personally will not buy a fairway or hybrid with a bonded hosels. I want to be able to use my nice shafts on newer heads. 

You make a lot of great points here. Would be nice if Callaway, who is on an every other year cycle with their main two lines, would offer one line of bonded fairways and hybrids (rogue & mavrik) then have the Epic line be fully adjustable throughout the woods and hybrids the next year. 

[HISPL]

28 minutes ago, getair23 said:

You make a lot of great points here. Would be nice if Callaway, who is on an every other year cycle with their main two lines, would offer one line of bonded fairways and hybrids (rogue & mavrik) then have the Epic line be fully adjustable throughout the woods and hybrids the next year. 

Strangely enough... they do!

[getair23]

18 minutes ago, HISPL said:

Strangely enough... they do!

Then I’m all set. Thanks for setting me straight. Will make sure the first cup of coffee is finished before posting next time!

[odshot68]

any word on the fairway woods, don't want to read 11 pages worth.

[noodle3872]

38 minutes ago, odshot68 said:

any word on the fairway woods, don't want to read 11 pages worth.

IIRC, the fairway woods will be bonded hosel which is a big change for the Epic series. Otherwise not much has been shared yet.

[HISPL]

Hmm, it seems like Callaway are straying from their every other year cycle of adjustable fairway woods... apologies for the previous misinformation!

[third-times-a-charm]

5 hours ago, HISPL said:

Hmm, it seems like Callaway are straying from their every other year cycle of adjustable fairway woods... apologies for the previous misinformation!

 

tbh besides the shaftho in me that wants to tinker all the time - I've gone back to bonded hybrids and fairways not by choice - but I've come to enjoy them and realize that I never used the adjustments.

 

My epic flash's always stayed stock, my drivers usually return to standard settings after I'm done tinkering, and my wife's adjustable BB hybrids stay on their settings as well.

[HISPL]

14 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

 

tbh besides the shaftho in me that wants to tinker all the time - I've gone back to bonded hybrids and fairways not by choice - but I've come to enjoy them and realize that I never used the adjustments.

 

My epic flash's always stayed stock, my drivers usually return to standard settings after I'm done tinkering, and my wife's adjustable BB hybrids stay on their settings as well.

Agreed, I set the adjustments and then leave them just tightening it every now and then to make sure it stays in place.

 

As long as I can get the lie angle and face angle where I want it I prefer a bonded club anyway as it doesn’t have the mass located in the heel area that the adjustable designs are “stuck with”.

[stockmd16]

has anyone hit this new driver or fairway? I have heard nothing but good things

[bcflyguy1]

I have. 🤐😉