Golf betting question on presses, etc.

[King_Slender]

Before I get into this, all bets have been settled and paid, but we had a heated discussion after the round yesterday concerning how betting on the course works.  I think anyone who bets regularly agrees that a bet accepted is to be paid, but this arose around a disagreement on what was being accepted.  

 

In general, betting between two individuals/teams are on a per-hole basis (e.g. $10 a hole) or a bet that occurs over a series of holes (e.g. a Nassau, COD, etc.).  For something like a Nassau, we can all agree that you can press, creating a new bet for the remaining holes.  The reason for allowing the press is because the person who is down is already losing, so it gives them the ability to win that potential loss back.  Pretty straightforward.

 

Our issue arose because we had just finished a team event and decided to play out the last 3 holes to the clubhouse.  The bet was 2-man Best Ball, $50 per hole.  

 

We won the first hole, so we were up $50.  Again, this was a per-hole bet, not a bet over the 3 holes.  Our opponents said they wanted to "press" on hole 2 for $100.  Being drunk, whatever, we accepted the press and lost the second hole, so we were down $50.  They then won the last hole - us under the assumption that it was a $50 bet (so we were down net $100) - they assumed it was a $100 bet because they pressed the hole before, so they said they were up $150.

 

There was a lot of back and forth on what is proper betting etiquette.  My stance is that "per hole" bets cannot be pressed because the bet is settled after every hole.  You can only press when you are down in an open bet, as in the case of a Nassau bet.  My buddy was adamant that "he can press any time" and I asked him what he was pressing on a per hole bet, because each hole is a new bet.  

 

Thoughts?

[deadsolid...shank]

I was always under the impression you could only press when behind, so how could press still be in effect on the third hole. They were ahead at that point. 
 

Sounds like instead of saying press they should have just doubled the bet for the remaining two holes. 

[golfandfishing]

You aren’t gonna find any formal rules on this obviously. IMHO the only appropriate thing to do would have been for you to “press” and make the last worth $200. 
 

 

[2bGood]

From my read of things I would agree with your opponent on what happened.

 

-You had a bet of $50 per hole. They pressed and you accepted -  you now have a second $50 per hole bet. Total bet would be $100 per hole once the press was accepted.

 

IF you had said that you don't have a standing bet for the next three holes and only had a bet for 16 then I would agree with you. 

 

But it does not matter much, there is no 'rule' or etiquette when it comes to betting and press etc. Unless you clarify the 'rules' when bets are being made, there is a good chance for misunderstandings. 

Edited October 4, 2020 by 2bGood

[LeoLeo99]

To me, once they pressed to $100, that meant it was $100 per hole for the remaining holes.   Although "press" isn't a term I'd use in that situation.  It's not a press, it's a raise the stakes.  You should have clarified on the 17th and 18th tee.  The scoundrels you bet against might have seen it your way had they lost the 18th hole. 

[jomatty]

I think using the term press was where things went sideways.  Maybe I’m wrong but I’m not used to seeing presses used in this scenario.  When I play skins with my one friend we don’t press, we renegotiate.  Maybe I’m wrong though, it’s just not how I’ve seen it done.  I think the moral of the story is to just be super clear what you are playing for, especially if it’s a different format than normal.  If you asked me before the third hole how much you were playing it for I don’t think I could have given you an answer...

[me05501]

I would side with the OP on this one. 
 

The opponents were arguing that there was both a hole-by-hole and a three-hole bet. There was no original three-hole bet IIRC. 
 

It sounds like they agreed to $50 per hole on a hole-by-hole basis. On the second hole, all parties agreed to a press bet for that hole.
 

Once that hole was over they’d have had to press again, but they couldn’t have because they weren’t behind. Your team could have pressed for the third hole but the other guys couldn’t. 

 

They were wrong to presume that a press at any point would run through the remaining holes, because there was never any bet that included all three holes. 

Edited October 4, 2020 by me05501

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, King_Slender said:

Before I get into this, all bets have been settled and paid, but we had a heated discussion after the round yesterday concerning how betting on the course works.  I think anyone who bets regularly agrees that a bet accepted is to be paid, but this arose around a disagreement on what was being accepted.  

 

In general, betting between two individuals/teams are on a per-hole basis (e.g. $10 a hole) or a bet that occurs over a series of holes (e.g. a Nassau, COD, etc.).  For something like a Nassau, we can all agree that you can press, creating a new bet for the remaining holes.  The reason for allowing the press is because the person who is down is already losing, so it gives them the ability to win that potential loss back.  Pretty straightforward.

 

Our issue arose because we had just finished a team event and decided to play out the last 3 holes to the clubhouse.  The bet was 2-man Best Ball, $50 per hole.  

 

We won the first hole, so we were up $50.  Again, this was a per-hole bet, not a bet over the 3 holes.  Our opponents said they wanted to "press" on hole 2 for $100.  Being drunk, whatever, we accepted the press and lost the second hole, so we were down $50.  They then won the last hole - us under the assumption that it was a $50 bet (so we were down net $100) - they assumed it was a $100 bet because they pressed the hole before, so they said they were up $150.

 

There was a lot of back and forth on what is proper betting etiquette.  My stance is that "per hole" bets cannot be pressed because the bet is settled after every hole.  You can only press when you are down in an open bet, as in the case of a Nassau bet.  My buddy was adamant that "he can press any time" and I asked him what he was pressing on a per hole bet, because each hole is a new bet.  

 

Thoughts?

 

You are correct. A "press" is starting a NEW bet while an existing MULTI-hole bet is still alive.

 

Playing for $50 per hole you had NO "ongoing" bet. They simply doubled the stakes on the 2nd hole after losing the 1st. They did NOT "press". They wanted to double the bet on the 2nd hole and you accepted.

 

NOTHING was said before hole 3, correct ? The 3rd and last hole is for the original $50.

[dongodfrey]

Hi 

I know how it would be over here in the UK

the bet was $50 originally, 

unless it’s called as now $100 a hole after they won the press,  unless stated the original bet stands

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by dongodfrey

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, me05501 said:

 

Once that hole was over they’d have had to press again, but they couldn’t have because they weren’t behind. Your team could have pressed for the third hole but the other guys couldn’t. 

 

 

 

Gotta love these press debates. In it simplest form a press really is just another word for adding a bet. It is originally short for "pressing your luck" and does not  have any standard rules applied to it. Golfers apply all sorts of meaning to it. 

 

It is common that only the losing side can press, but I play with a bunch of degenerate gambling golfers that say anyone can press anytime, usually with the provision that the opponent need to accept the press but I have seen countless other versions. 

 

Frankly I find the anyone can press but it has to be accepted way easier and causes allot less 'discussion' after the fact.

 

 

[SkiSchoolPro]

Precision and common agreement is needed in these situations. Sometimes, even when you discuss things, there is not a meeting of the minds.

 

I was playing with a buddy a few weeks ago, medal & match, front, back and 18 at his home club. I'm giving him 10 shots per GHIN. We tie the match and he wins the medal on the first 9. He's riding and keeping the card. On our 17th hole, he tells me I'm 3 up on the match and asks what happens if he presses. (I grew up at a course where the most common game was 2 down auto presses on the 9 hole bets, but no auto presses on the 18, but with him, we have never played auto presses). I tell him we have a new bet for the last two holes if he presses. He says he wants to press. We both par that hole (which he said he got a shot on eventhough the next week I noticed it was the 11 hc hole) and he pitches in for eagle at the last (and I par to lose the hole and 18 hole medal, but tie the back 9 medal with him getting 5 shots). He claimed he initiated 2 new bets when he pressed (both the 9 hole and 18 hole bets) while my understanding was that we had only 1 new bet (press on the back)???

[King_Slender]

14 hours ago, jomatty said:

I think using the term press was where things went sideways.  Maybe I’m wrong but I’m not used to seeing presses used in this scenario.  When I play skins with my one friend we don’t press, we renegotiate.  Maybe I’m wrong though, it’s just not how I’ve seen it done.  I think the moral of the story is to just be super clear what you are playing for, especially if it’s a different format than normal.  If you asked me before the third hole how much you were playing it for I don’t think I could have given you an answer...

I think this is the best clarification.

 

A bet over a number of holes can be pressed.

 

A hole by hole bet cannot be pressed - the proper term is raising the stakes. 

[SkiSchoolPro]

5 hours ago, King_Slender said:

I think this is the best clarification.

 

A bet over a number of holes can be pressed.

 

A hole by hole bet cannot be pressed - the proper term is raising the stakes. 

Yes...once they said they wanted to press, that should have been a red flag that clarification was needed.

[2bGood]

23 hours ago, deadsolid...shank said:

I was always under the impression you could only press when behind, so how could press still be in effect on the third hole. They were ahead at that point. 
 

Sounds like instead of saying press they should have just doubled the bet for the remaining two holes. 

 Cool. Yet another version of a press I have not heard of.

 

If I understand you correct, if I am 2 behind after  5 holes and press you and  then win holes 6 and 7 the press is over as I am no longer behind? How does this work? Do I win the press at that point? 

 

I have never heard of presses not being in effect for the remainder of the holes pressed.

[2bGood]

7 hours ago, King_Slender said:

I think this is the best clarification.

 

A bet over a number of holes can be pressed.

 

A hole by hole bet cannot be pressed - the proper term is raising the stakes. 

 

1 hour ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

Yes...once they said they wanted to press, that should have been a red flag that clarification was needed.

 

I will keep looping back to this. There is not a standard version of a press or standard meaning. When we play with our regular groups we typically all have an understanding of what we are doing and a 'press' means, but even in my regular game I find myself saying "to clarify we are playing XYZ...." when we are making bets, naming games or taking or giving presses. 

 

When you start mixing with other groups,  each will have their own meaning of things and all bets are off (figuratively speaking) in terms of what the short hand for betting terms mean. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by 2bGood

[oikos1]

"Being drunk, whatever,"

 

Unfortunately, a good reminder for those of us who choose to imbibe on the course, when the real deal is over close out all bets and just play for craps and grins coming home.

[deadsolid...shank]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 Cool. Yet another version of a press I have not heard of.

 

If I understand you correct, if I am 2 behind after  5 holes and press you and  then win holes 6 and 7 the press is over as I am no longer behind? How does this work? Do I win the press at that point? 

 

I have never heard of presses not being in effect for the remainder of the holes pressed.

Sorry 2B, I had forgotten that a press (in what I think is the normal betting terms)is basically a new bet for what is basically a second match And I think maybe more in tune with matchplay (again, not sure on this). Hence the term “automatic two down”. So the new bet. It’s easy to reset to all square for a new bet, never really figured out how it would apply to a stroke play format. So for us, the word press always essentially meant doubling the bet, giving the trailing team a chance to catch up. 
 

Possibly the only “press when behind”is a local variation. Like I said, since we never play matchplay I think we’ve kind of changed the meaning of the word to fit our game better. But I probably shouldn’t have chimed in on a situation that isn’t like ours. 

[2bGood]

11 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

Sorry 2B, I had forgotten that a press (in what I think is the normal betting terms)is basically a new bet for what is basically a second match And I think maybe more in tune with matchplay (again, not sure on this). Hence the term “automatic two down”. So the new bet. It’s easy to reset to all square for a new bet, never really figured out how it would apply to a stroke play format. So for us, the word press always essentially meant doubling the bet, giving the trailing team a chance to catch up. 
 

Possibly the only “press when behind”is a local variation. Like I said, since we never play matchplay I think we’ve kind of changed the meaning of the word to fit our game better. But I probably shouldn’t have chimed in on a situation that isn’t like ours. 

 

Thanks for the clarification. There is lots of different ways groups handle their betting games, I always find it interesting to hear about them as many of them are fun to try. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by 2bGood

[deadsolid...shank]

1 minute ago, 2bGood said:

 

Thanks for the clarification. There is lots of different ways groups handling their betting games, I always find it interesting to hear about them as many of them are fun to try. 

That is very true. I just thought of an example of how the word “press”gets used in our groups. We typically play the seven point game Umbi. In a 6-6-6 format. So for us basically if someone (always the team behind) says press, then we are playing the hole for 14 points. And for us, once pressed, the press stays in effect until the trailing team gets to even, or the teams change. 
 

I guess to keep it simple, in our world, press simply means double. But not “double or nothing,”. win them back one hole at a time, just like you lost them. But that’s a discussion for another time!😀

[2bGood]

4 minutes ago, deadsolid...shank said:

That is very true. I just thought of an example of how the word “press”gets used in our groups. We typically play the seven point game Umbi. In a 6-6-6 format. So for us basically if someone (always the team behind) says press, then we are playing the hole for 14 points. And for us, once pressed, the press stays in effect until the trailing team gets to even, or the teams change. 
 

I guess to keep it simple, in our world, press simply means double. But not “double or nothing,”. win them back one hole at a time, just like you lost them. But that’s a discussion for another time!😀

Yes make perfect sense. Thanks

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 Cool. Yet another version of a press I have not heard of.

 

If I understand you correct, if I am 2 behind after  5 holes and press you and  then win holes 6 and 7 the press is over as I am no longer behind? How does this work? Do I win the press at that point? 

 

I have never heard of presses not being in effect for the remainder of the holes pressed.

 

I seldom play these sorts of games but I agree, only ever played it "match" play, never stroke.

 

I also tend to stick to the original bet and never take (or ask for) presses. It's simply bad gambling to work 16 holes for $X and then lose it all back in 2 holes.

 

But this is how it's done where I've played it.

 

No, your press is NOT over. Your press started on 6. After 7 you are 2 up on the press bet with 2 to play. On the original front 9 bet you are now even with 2 holes to play. On the overall you are also even and 2 up as without saying anything more specific the press is for ALL existing bets. i.e. the press is for BOTH the front 9 and the overall. So you now have 2 overall bets going as well as 2 front 9 bets going.

 

Now, when you pressed on the 6th tee you could specify you're "pressing the front only" (or the overall only) so the other existing bet would NOT be pressed.

 

My guys also generally played "automatic 2 down presses". If everybody agreed, then every time a side got 2 holes down another press would take place. It can get pretty hairy.

 

Oh, and my guys think there's something "unmanly" about refusing a press. LOL

 

Oh#2. Only the team behind can press. Can you imagine if the team "slaughtering" the other team could press for the entire round ? LOL

 

Played this once for a $10 Nassau. We also played birdies and closest on the par 3s. Harmless enough, right ? My partner was about the same as myself, around a 5. Our 2 opponents, lifelong friends who wanted to play together were a "scruffy" 7 and a 12.

 

It wasn't pretty. By the 7th hole we were up in 2 matches and had another press on the 7th tee. I told my partner we were all friends and they were hitting it sideways and we should let them out of any more bets but he wasn't having any of it. He told me "You think they'd let US off the hook if it was the other way 'round ?" LOL

 

My partner played great. He was even par on the 12th tee and I was only 3 or 4 over.

 

I won $150 that day. But at least we bought them lunch.

 

But yes, net-net, you should spell everything out before you start.

 

 

 

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

No, your press is NOT over. Your press started on 6. After 7 you are 2 up on the press bet with 2 to play. On the original front 9 bet you are now even with 2 holes to play. On the overall you are also even and 2 up as without saying anything more specific the press is for ALL existing bets. i.e. the press is for BOTH the front 9 and the overall. So you now have 2 overall bets going as well as 2 front 9 bets going.

 

 

 I was asking dead solid how they play it, and his response is they do play presses that end once you catch up - kind of different (to me) but I can see some possibilities of that would work well in the right format.

 

The way you are suggesting above is the typical way the guys I play with handle presses except for presses being for all bets. In our game you would choose the bets to press.

[jomatty]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

I seldom play these sorts of games but I agree, only ever played it "match" play, never stroke.

 

I also tend to stick to the original bet and never take (or ask for) presses. It's simply bad gambling to work 16 holes for $X and then lose it all back in 2 holes.

 

But this is how it's done where I've played it.

 

No, your press is NOT over. Your press started on 6. After 7 you are 2 up on the press bet with 2 to play. On the original front 9 bet you are now even with 2 holes to play. On the overall you are also even and 2 up as without saying anything more specific the press is for ALL existing bets. i.e. the press is for BOTH the front 9 and the overall. So you now have 2 overall bets going as well as 2 front 9 bets going.

 

Now, when you pressed on the 6th tee you could specify you're "pressing the front only" (or the overall only) so the other existing bet would NOT be pressed.

 

My guys also generally played "automatic 2 down presses". If everybody agreed, then every time a side got 2 holes down another press would take place. It can get pretty hairy.

 

Oh, and my guys think there's something "unmanly" about refusing a press. LOL

 

Oh#2. Only the team behind can press. Can you imagine if the team "slaughtering" the other team could press for the entire round ? LOL

 

Played this once for a $10 Nassau. We also played birdies and closest on the par 3s. Harmless enough, right ? My partner was about the same as myself, around a 5. Our 2 opponents, lifelong friends who wanted to play together were a "scruffy" 7 and a 12.

 

It wasn't pretty. By the 7th hole we were up in 2 matches and had another press on the 7th tee. I told my partner we were all friends and they were hitting it sideways and we should let them out of any more bets but he wasn't having any of it. He told me "You think they'd let US off the hook if it was the other way 'round ?" LOL

 

My partner played great. He was even par on the 12th tee and I was only 3 or 4 over.

 

I won $150 that day. But at least we bought them lunch.

 

But yes, net-net, you should spell everything out before you start.

 

 

 

It’s not bad gambling to take a bet that risks your winning.  It would be bad gambling to reject a bet that gave you an advantage because you were worried about losing what you had already won. Most of us don’t gamble on the course for anything but fun so it really doesn’t matter but to call that bad gambling is looking at it emotionally rather than mathematically...that is bad gambling.  Again it doesn’t really matter to most of it but as an overly pedantic former poker pro I can’t help myself...

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, jomatty said:

It’s not bad gambling to take a bet that risks your winning.  It would be bad gambling to reject a bet that gave you an advantage because you were worried about losing what you had already won. Most of us don’t gamble on the course for anything but fun so it really doesn’t matter but to call that bad gambling is looking at it emotionally rather than mathematically...that is bad gambling.  Again it doesn’t really matter to most of it but as an overly pedantic former poker pro I can’t help myself...

 

Sorry but we'll have to disagree.

 

I consider it bad gambling to lose everything you've worked for for 3+ hours in 30 minutes or less.

 

To me, it's akin to playing blackjack for 3 hours, betting variations of $5 to say $20, to grind out $1,000 profit and then bet the $1,000 on 1 hand to "double your money".

 

Then again, one's edge in poker is calculated differently than one's edge in golf.

[jomatty]

6 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Sorry but we'll have to disagree.

 

I consider it bad gambling to lose everything you've worked for for 3+ hours in 30 minutes or less.

 

To me, it's akin to playing blackjack for 3 hours, betting variations of $5 to say $20, to grind out $1,000 profit and then bet the $1,000 on 1 hand to "double your money".

 

Then again, one's edge in poker is calculated differently than one's edge in golf.

We can disagree for sure.  It also depends on if you quantify good gambling based on an emotional response or an expectation of profit and loss.  Since we play and gamble on golf recreationally either is fine.  The way professional gamblers (irregardless of wether they are talking poker, sport, or black jack) is based on the expected value of the individual bet (assuming there are no bankroll consideration which should be the case in recreational golf gambling).  If someone were a professional blackjack player (not sure anyone can do that anymore) they would certainly not quit because they had won a lot if their count showed the deck very rich in face cards...

if you are gambling for fun and losing your winning will make it less fun then by all means don’t do it.  I just don’t think it’s right to call it “bad gambling”.  But like I said, we certainly don’t have to agree!

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, jomatty said:

We can disagree for sure.  It also depends on if you quantify good gambling based on an emotional response or an expectation of profit and loss.  Since we play and gamble on golf recreationally either is fine.  The way professional gamblers (irregardless of wether they are talking poker, sport, or black jack) is based on the expected value of the individual bet (assuming there are no bankroll consideration which should be the case in recreational golf gambling).  If someone were a professional blackjack player (not sure anyone can do that anymore) they would certainly not quit because they had won a lot if their count showed the deck very rich in face cards...

if you are gambling for fun and losing your winning will make it less fun then by all means don’t do it.  I just don’t think it’s right to call it “bad gambling”.  But like I said, we certainly don’t have to agree!

 

Sorry but I just hate reading through 1 run-on paragraph.

 

I suggested "it's akin to playing blackjack for 3 hours, betting variations of $5 to say $20, to grind out $1,000 profit and then bet the $1,000 on 1 hand to "double your money".

 

Did you say that you WOULD do this ? Or you wouldn't ?

 

TIA

[Krt22]

I agree with some of the following. 1)You can only press if you are down  2)The press is equal to the amount you stand to lose. 3) A press is a new bet in addition the original bet.

 

So in this case, it was not normally a scenario where a press comes into play, but if you go by the above, the press only existed on the 2nd hole, unless you and your partner pressed again on the 3rd hole since you were down. If they wanted to double the stakes, they should have said lets double the bet for the remaining 2 holes

[Soloman1]

I humbly submit that I've probably played more money games than 99% of golfers. I've matches against people would all know, people in golf, other sports, Hollywood entertainment types, etc.

 

I've never been in a game where a press was not considered a separate new bet that continued throughout the match, irrespective of other bets. Any negotiations are separate. That's the whole purpose of press.

 

That's my take . . .

 

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Soloman1

[rogolf]

20 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

I humbly submit that I've probably played more money games than 99% of golfers. I've matches against people you all would all know, people in golf, other sports, Hollywood entertainment types, etc.

 

I've never been in a game where a press was not considered a separate new bet that continued throughout the match, irrespective of other bets. Any negotiations are separate. That's the whole purpose of press.

 

That's my take . . .

 

 

My take also.  It's just starting a new game for the original stakes, continued until it and the original game conclude.  As someone said above, it can be limited, eg, I'm pressing the front nine, or pressing the overall game (18), and you cannot press unless you are behind in the game you are pressing.

[deadsolid...shank]

Soloman and Ro, have those always been matchplay formats?