To pronate or not to pronate, that is the question...

[SwagGolf6112]

On 10/26/2020 at 5:06 AM, moehogan said:

Swag went AWOL shortly after another WRX poster did ... “Nail_It”, who was prolific in the “Do You Throw or Twist?” thread in the main Instruction forum. Just had a gut feel they might be the same guy ... no real proof but did notice some similarities in the style of their posts.

 

Keep the conspiracy theories coming! 😂

 

I respect you sir. You might be one of the few people who actually knows how it feels going through the hitting area with the same Hogan dynamic.

 

But god no I am not that guy LOL

 

Cheers sir!

[SwagGolf6112]

9 hours ago, Gsea said:

He's lurking, was here last nite 😁

 

I was here to participate in MSE is a Charlatan thread and didn't notice this one. So yes, I was here but not lurking. 

 

As usual. Nothing of value from you.

[SwagGolf6112]

3 hours ago, virtuoso said:

It appears Swag's action will remain mythological.

 

Not really sir.

 

On the downswing rotate both your elbows toward your corresponding hips by supinating both your wrists from the top. Simple as that.

 

But I am still trying to figure out how Hogan....

1) Kept this element in his swing without any conscience effort.

2) How he maxed out the wrist motion from P6 all the way to finish without the arms crossing over despite firing his hands hard at the ball.

 

Cheers sir.

[alansmithdc]

How do you rotate your arms like that and keep pressure on the "butt pad of the index finger"?

 

 

 

Time 10:00

[moehogan]

27 minutes ago, SwagGolf6112 said:

 

I respect you sir. You might be one of the few people who actually knows how it feels going through the hitting area with the same Hogan dynamic.

 

But god no I am not that guy LOL

 

Cheers sir!

No offense intended, Swag ... thanks for being a good sport! Just trying to lighten up the mood a little bit here in Hoganland!

[SwagGolf6112]

25 minutes ago, alansmithdc said:

How do you rotate your arms like that and keep pressure on the "butt pad of the index finger"?

 

 

 

Time 10:00

 

Great question Alan. I'll explain how.

 

Try this drill...

 

1) Supinate your right wrist to it's maximum range of motion. The palm will be looking at the sky while your right elbow will fold towards your torso correct?

 

2) "Now with that motion intact feel that pressure and simply extend or dorsiflex your right wrist at the same time".... now imagine the left wrist and arm twisting in the opposite direction pulling the butt pad of the index finger towards the grip.

 

Voilaaaa... that's how forward shaft lean and "said pressure" is achieved.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by SwagGolf6112

[SwagGolf6112]

4 minutes ago, moehogan said:

No offense intended, Swag ... thanks for being a good sport! Just trying to lighten up the mood a little bit here in Hoganland!

 

I feel you sir. Much love!

[moehogan]

Your grip needs to start at a point that gives you the range of motion to make those moves.

[virtuoso]

10 hours ago, SwagGolf6112 said:

 

I appreciate your comments sir. Keep them coming and I will try to my best of abilities, minus the video of my demonstrating it. Please know I have my reasons.

 

And please keep in mind that I am not promoting any product or selling anything like MSE. I am merely a Hogan fan who likes to discuss his swing with like minded friends. No hidden agenda or product to sell. Not now, not ever.

 

Nothing but respect to you and Moehogan. You guys know your s***.

 

 

 

Just curious Swag, where are you located?

[virtuoso]

Swag, are you actually trying this stuff on the range? Theorizing is an important first step, but you have to actually go out and see if an insight is valid and do-able in practice. It's super easy to move the club, at speed, into magical conditions in your brain. The actual driving range and a video machine tend to b%&*-slap people back into reality. Ask me how I know this.

[SwagGolf6112]

13 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Just curious Swag, where are you located?

Grew up in The States. Now based in Asia. Back n forth between different countries. I assume you're from The States Virtuoso? Hope you and your loved ones are safe from the epidemic sir.

 

8 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Swag, are you actually trying this stuff on the range? Theorizing is an important first step, but you have to actually go out and see if an insight is valid and do-able in practice. It's super easy to move the club, at speed, into magical conditions in your brain. The actual driving range and a video machine tend to b%&*-slap people back into reality. Ask me how I know this.

Oh Virtuoso. Don't I know this too damn well. Been at it long enough to have learned this the hard way.

 

Like I said before, Edison and his colleagues attempted to create almost 2,000 variations of a light bulb before hitting gold. So yes, I know what you're saying. Our battle scars reminds us constantly.

 

As per the Hogan mechanic. The hints are all there for us to "lego" the swing together. The trick is knowing which pieces are the cause and which ones are merely the effect. Our Ben sure did a good job of making us "earned" the damn thing. And rightly so.

 

And to answer your question. Yes, the theory works. With great measurable success on a very wide range of age, physical conditions and abilities both on the driving range, video machines and pressure situations.

[virtuoso]

Oh, ok. Im in socal.

 

You must be an instructor since you've meadured success with a wide range of students?........and you use video?

[SwagGolf6112]

20 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Oh, ok. Im in socal.

 

You must be an instructor since you've meadured success with a wide range of students?........and you use video?

 

And I assume you are an instructor? If so, respect and happy hunting.

 

p.s.

But why do I sense that you've already figured out Hogan's real secret... and that you've already came to the conclusion that it isn't as easy or as repeatable as say... O'Grady's swing mechanic? I could be wrong... just making conversation LOL

[virtuoso]

Definitely haven't figured out the secret--other than the his stated secret, weaken his left hand and cup the face open....and then the not stated part--planes the shaft such that the passive torque created by the re-steepening from P5 to P6 helps re-square the face by P7. That tends to set in a "standard" closure rate.

 

86-94 Morad tends to suit my personal golf DNA better, which is more of the Snead mechanics. Early 2000's Morad incorporated some of the Hogan mechanics.

 

I can show you my version of Hogan mechanics but there are still some issues to be sorted.

[SwagGolf6112]

11 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Definitely haven't figured out the secret--other than the his stated secret, weaken his left hand and cup the face open....and then the not stated part--planes the shaft such that the passive torque created by the re-steepening from P5 to P6 helps re-square the face by P7. That tends to set in a "standard" closure rate. --> The re-steepening of the shaft, while it did help, wasn't the key component on how he re-squared the face. He re-squared it by the firing of the the hands... or should I say "throws the hands and clubhead" at the ball just like the rest of us mortals. But his secret gave him the freedom and peace of mind to throw it anytime(whichever sequence) and anyway(whichever path/attack angle) he wanted without it ever exceeding it's maximum range of motion. It being pre-set to be square, slightly closed or slightly opened depending on the type and shape of shot he wants to hit. And the angle of attack(high or low shots) was achieved by the way he fires the hands at the ball as well and not so much from the ball position at set-up.

 

86-94 Morad tends to suit my personal golf DNA better, which is more of the Snead mechanics. Early 2000's Morad incorporated some of the Hogan mechanics. --> Kool Kool. Right on about finding the swing that better suites that individual's golf DNA(what is more comfortable for them to focus on and "consciously" control in their swing). Contrary to the science and mechanics involved, To my amazement and pleasure, I've found that the Morad approach works much better for the majority of  "head and body focus/lazy hands" crowds. While the Hogan approach works wonders for the majority of "boss hands/lazy body" crowds. What has your experience in comparing the swing styles been Virtuoso. Similar or totally different?

 

I can show you my version of Hogan mechanics but there are still some issues to be sorted. --> Kool Kool. Look forward to seeing it and it's accompanying issues.

 

Have a lovely weekend and happy grail hunting...

 

"The secret is easy to see(and learn) if you know where to look"

 

Cheers sir!

[Jeselnik]

[powerfade66]

On 10/26/2020 at 8:04 AM, virtuoso said:

The ultimate coup would be if Swag is actually Christo. That would be a really cool twist.

 

On 10/26/2020 at 9:06 AM, moehogan said:

Swag went AWOL shortly after another WRX poster did ... “Nail_It”, who was prolific in the “Do You Throw or Twist?” thread in the main Instruction forum. Just had a gut feel they might be the same guy ... no real proof but did notice some similarities in the style of their posts.

 

Keep the conspiracy theories coming! 😂

Swag has a lot of identities apparently. I thought I was Swag? 🤷‍♂️ 
 

I’m not into these opposing forces gimmicks. Hogan was far more uninhibited than that. He had a violent backswing and that gave him even more at his disposal to unload coming down. He didn’t need anything going clockwise coming down once he had his grip right (left) and got left early. Right? There was never any need for anything that would grab or stall in his grip which then spooks the shaft too soon. All just my opinion of course. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by powerfade66

[dlygrisse]

The great news is Hogan actually wrote a book, explaining exactly what he did.  Why do people need to come up with their own convoluted theories when it's written down and explained with drawings?  The Coleman video pretty much explains all of 5 Lessons if you need some video.  This thread is like all other Hogan threads.....a complete mess.    

[moehogan]

1 hour ago, powerfade66 said:

 

Swag has a lot of identities apparently. I thought I was Swag? 🤷‍♂️ 
 

I’m not into these opposing forces gimmicks. Hogan was far more uninhibited than that. He had a violent backswing and that gave him even more at his disposal to unload coming down. He didn’t need anything going clockwise coming down once he had his grip right (left) and got left early. Right? There was never any need for anything that would grab or stall in his grip which then spooks the shaft too soon. All just my opinion of course. 

His entire right arm started winding clockwise (ESR and supination) in the second half of his BS and he increased and maintained that winding deep into the DS ... he had that move presecret. So instead of giving all of that up, could he have kept a little through and after impact to counteract the counterclockwise rotation of his pivot and his left arm for a more stable clubface? Push through impact and up the plane with "three right hands" using PPs#1&3 and a completely synced right side?

 

I have never contended that this was the secret that definitely fixed his hook, but only that it could be possibility based on my observations and experimentation. There is no grab or stall in the grip with this move if done correctly, allowing the swing to be a continuous, freewheeling motion.

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by moehogan

[powerfade66]

29 minutes ago, moehogan said:

His entire right arm started winding clockwise (ESR and supination) in the second half of his BS and he increased and maintained that winding deep into the DS ... he had that move presecret. So instead of giving all of that up, could he have kept a little through and after impact to counteract the counterclockwise rotation of his pivot and his left arm for a more stable clubface? Push through impact and up the plane with "three right hands" using PPs#1&3 and a completely synced right side?

 

I have never contended that this was the secret that definitely fixed his hook, but only that it could be possibility based on my observations and experimentation. There is no grab or stall in the grip with this move if done correctly, allowing the swing to be a continuous, freewheeling motion.

 

 

 

I see what you mean but with heavy clubs, a very fast backswing and pronation, what I see is he slings the club into a deep set in his right hand, which then moves into the cup to maximise wrist c0ck, then because he has his right elbow so low and deep already he goes hard with the hips early downswing (earlier than others because he is lower AND “lefter” already... it is going to create that without any great need to tweak it. On the downswing his grip in the left was too weak to be able to bow and hold it firm and not have to fire hard with the right hand. But he wanted that. He knew how far he could go (and had to go) with the right because of how the left side was set up. It may sound like heresy but there was a lot of throw in the right hand, just not a flippy throw. A throw where you don’t use the forefinger and thumb. Where the forefinger pad works more linear. 

[powerfade66]

50 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

The great news is Hogan actually wrote a book, explaining exactly what he did.  Why do people need to come up with their own convoluted theories when it's written down and explained with drawings?  The Coleman video pretty much explains all of 5 Lessons if you need some video.  This thread is like all other Hogan threads.....a complete mess.    

So you keep saying. Yet you keep coming back. You need to see your therapist so you don’t keep walking straight into a mess involuntarily. I feel for you.

[dlygrisse]

8 minutes ago, powerfade66 said:

So you keep saying. Yet you keep coming back. You need to see your therapist so you don’t keep walking straight into a mess involuntarily. I feel for you.

Thanks, I appreciate your support, I wasn't sure if I was going to make it to dinner time tonight without having to check myself into a clinic or something.  Just knowing you feel for me makes all the difference.  Good luck in your quest for the "secret".  enjoy the $h!t$s0w.  

[powerfade66]

1 minute ago, dlygrisse said:

Thanks, I appreciate your support, I wasn't sure if I was going to make it to dinner time tonight without having to check myself into a clinic or something.  Just knowing you feel for me makes all the difference.  Good luck in your quest for the "secret".  enjoy the $h!t$s0w.  

Secret(s). He had a great swing. He worked tirelessly at it and had a lot of very interesting ideas he shared with friends. The “secret” was a fad created by the media. If you think his book and Coleman is enough then good for you. He didn’t write his books for high level players. Yes the fundamentals are important but when he and his closest friends discuss the swing it’s more nuanced than those books. He said many times to friends don’t help other players not in their circle. He wasn’t the type of guy that would give away his life’s work.

The letters he wrote to friends weren’t 5 lessons stuff, why not?

Edited February 22, 2021 by powerfade66

[moehogan]

42 minutes ago, powerfade66 said:

I see what you mean but with heavy clubs, a very fast backswing and pronation, what I see is he slings the club into a deep set in his right hand, which then moves into the cup to maximise wrist c0ck, then because he has his right elbow so low and deep already he goes hard with the hips early downswing (earlier than others because he is lower AND “lefter” already... it is going to create that without any great need to tweak it. On the downswing his grip in the left was too weak to be able to bow and hold it firm and not have to fire hard with the right hand. But he wanted that. He knew how far he could go (and had to go) with the right because of how the left side was set up. It may sound like heresy but there was a lot of throw in the right hand, just not a flippy throw. A throw where you don’t use the forefinger and thumb. Where the forefinger pad works more linear. 

Hogan set the club deep into the two middle fingers of the right hand allowing him to use the weight of the club to facilitate right wrist extension, that, combined with the CW winding, helps create the club shallowing in transition. I see it as more of a vicious uppercut with the base of the right palm pad than a throw.

 

"He (Hogan) was big on getting that right hand in position and holding it all the way through the swing"

- Jackie Burke, Jr.

Edited February 22, 2021 by moehogan

[powerfade66]

18 minutes ago, moehogan said:

Hogan set the club deep into the two middle fingers of the right hand allowing him to use the weight of the club to facilitate right wrist extension, that, combined with the CW winding, helps create the club shallowing in transition. I see it as more of a vicious uppercut with the base of the right palm pad than a throw.

 

"He (Hogan) was big on getting that right hand in position and holding it all the way through the swing"

- Jackie Burke, Jr.

That Jackie Burke quote describes what I mean by throwing but without the thumb and forefinger. It’s like a blocked throw, to first base. Bill Melhorn described it as a forehand to the right side of the court from the left. 

[golfsticks]

On 2/22/2021 at 2:39 PM, powerfade66 said:

Yes the fundamentals are important but when he and his closest friends discuss the swing it’s more nuanced than those books. He said many times to friends don’t help other players not in their circle.

 

To be a fly on the wall during those discussions would have been an amazing experience. 

[powerfade66]

2 hours ago, golfsticks said:

 

To be a fly on the wall during those discussions would have been an amazing experience. 

Absolutely it would. I’ve been studying over time what each of his inner circle has said without necessarily  “Hogan said...” at the start of it. They all have a lot of common features. Venturi, Bolt and a few others spoke about their weak left hand, using the feet and knees (narrow the gap). Gardner Dickinson and Jackie Burke spoke about striping it with the right side against the weak left hand. Burke talks about feeling like your arm is coming out of its socket. You don’t see the extreme long right arm on swings now. Computer says be neat and symmetrical. Leadbetter says use legs for resistance.  Oh but now jump out of the ground for extra forces. Ignore the great swings, who played INTO the ground. 

[snick59]

On 2/22/2021 at 1:31 PM, dlygrisse said:

The great news is Hogan actually wrote a book, explaining exactly what he did.  Why do people need to come up with their own convoluted theories when it's written down and explained with drawings?  The Coleman video pretty much explains all of 5 Lessons if you need some video.  This thread is like all other Hogan threads.....a complete mess.    

With all these theories might as well listen to Ed Norton😂

Edited September 6, 2021 by snick59

[SwagGolf6112]

On 9/7/2021 at 6:50 AM, snick59 said:

With all these theories might as well listen to Ed Norton😂

 

So true snick. Better Ed Norton than MSE😂

 

 

 

p.s. How are you snick. Hope all is well. Love you bro.